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Neglected D Line

Originally posted by eonblue:
Calling last years draft a bust sinply just doesnt make sense. You have no time to say whether or not Jenkins is a bust. LMJ was a hit as well and I wouldn't be suprised if hes the future for us. Him and Kaep compiment each other and harbaugh is tryjng to do that. All these mobile guards and tackles with kaep, LMJ, and Jenkins are the future. Its going to take time for you to see the fruits of focusing on the offense. I think you'll b happy with.the 2013 draft cause i see us drafting the defense heavy and making.some trade.up for Why
some.studs but calling 2012.a bust.because we didnt draft wolfe is moronic. We traded up 2011 to draft aldon and hes a pro bowler but thats not going to happen.every year. Why dont you post a mock and give some insight.into what a non neglected.dline draft looks like?

Thanks for twisting my words, misunderstanding what I said, than calling me "moronic".
I was responding to "LifelongNiner" above who said quality is more important than position. I responded by saying 'of course quality is most important, but the niners so far haven't appeared to have hit on either quality or need'.

I liked much of the niners draft, but answer these two questions:
* Why draft AJ Jenkins, who was a project, with 5 WR's already guaranteed to be on the team?
* Why draft Slowey when they already had a very strong O-line with NINE good O-line? Slowey almost was guaranteed to be cut.
[ Edited by maxsmart on Jan 6, 2013 at 5:27 PM ]
Originally posted by LasVegasWally:
We don't rotate our DLine often because there is WAY too big of a drop off.

We need a better rotation and eventual replacements. NOT impressed w/ Tukafu [sp], Dobbs. RJF has improved and I think he'll continue to do so w/more playing time. Ian has potential.

We need to get a NT & DE either in FA or preferably the draft.

Exactly right.

Esp. with an OLD D-line they need to get a break occasionally to keep them fresh.
Originally posted by maxsmart:
Thanks for twisting my words, misunderstanding what I said, than calling me "moronic".
I was responding to "LifelongNiner" above who said quality is more important than position. I responded by saying 'of course quality is most important, but the niners so far haven't appeared to have hit on either quality or need'.

I liked much of the niners draft, but answer these two questions:
* Why draft AJ Jenkins, who was a project, with 5 WR's already guaranteed to be on the team?
* Why draft Slowey when they aleady had a very strong O-line with NINE good O-line? Slowey almost was guaranteed to be cut.

A. Okay your saying 5 wrs is enough for 2 spots but its obvious that harbaugh wants run more than just 2 wrs sets especially considering alex smith strengths were his descion making and arm. Aaron rodgers sometimes hits more than 10.receivers a game and you're aaying 5 is to many. 1 of which is 35. 1 that is primarily kick returner. 1 was a temporary fix (manningham) who after.his two years was going to ask for more money than baalke was really to offer.

Your saying that dobbs, tuk, sopo, rjf, mcdonaold, smith, williams is not enough for 3 spots. Sometimes 2 spots when we switch to a two DE front 2 OLB front. But 5 is enough for 2-4 spots. Even though Jenkins isnt showing up considering KW and Manninghams injuries im glad we have someone to even feel the spot at this point. I dont deny we have a drop off in quality on the dline but we have of players at wr and that seems like a much bigger problem than not having justin smith x3.

And the olinemen in the 4th. Do you think they wouldve been able to draft someone better on the dline then the playera we have now. probably not. O personally like not have kaeps head being blown off like cutlers or vicks and i guarentee i know who theyre drafting in the first rd. I mean this was before kaep and we all know alex smith is a sittinng duck in the pocket. We spent the past few years drafting the offfense because weve had the liberty to do so. Our defense isnt hurting. I means we have the beat defense in the league but it doeant matter if were turning the ball over and not scoring. Maybe we were just looking for depth on jumbo packagea and more capable run blockers for Gore.
BTW i didnt call you a moron. I called the statement moronic. Totally different.
[ Edited by eonblue on Jan 6, 2013 at 6:21 PM ]
Originally posted by eonblue:
A. Okay your saying 5 wrs is enough for 2 spots but its obvious that harbaugh wants run more than just 2 wrs sets especially considering alex smith strengths were his descion making and arm. Aaron rodgers sometimes hits more than 10.receivers a game and you're aaying 5 is to many. 1 of which is 35. 1 that is primarily kick returner. 1 was a temporary fix (manningham) who after.his two years was going to ask for more money than baalke was really to offer.

Your saying that dobbs, tuk, sopo, rjf, mcdonaold, smith, williams is not enough for 3 spots. Sometimes 2 spots when we switch to a two DE front 2 OLB front. But 5 is enough for 2-4 spots. Even though Jenkins isnt showing up considering KW and Manninghams injuries im glad we have someone to even feel the spot at this point. I dont deny we have a drop off in quality on the dline but we have of players at wr and that seems like a much bigger problem than not having justin smith x3.

And the olinemen in the 4th. Do you think they wouldve been able to draft someone better on the dline then the playera we have now. probably not. O personally like not have kaeps head being blown off like cutlers or vicks and i guarentee i know who theyre drafting in the first rd. I mean this was before kaep and we all know alex smith is a sittinng duck in the pocket. We spent the past few years drafting the offfense because weve had the liberty to do so. Our defense isnt hurting. I means we have the beat defense in the league but it doeant matter if were turning the ball over and not scoring. Maybe we were just looking for depth on jumbo packagea and more capable run blockers for Gore.
BTW i didnt call you a moron. I called the statement moronic. Totally different.

The Packers do indeed have a lot of WR's. None of them are first round picks, but they do have a few 2nd rd WR's. BTW we have 3 1st rd WR's . . . but I do see your point.

However, since you brought up the butt Packers, the Packers have TWO 1st rd plus TWO 2nd rd D-linemen, and they carry 7 DLine on the roster. This year they used their 2nd and 4th rd picks on D-line, plus their 1st rd pick is a converted DE.
Originally posted by maxsmart:
Thanks for twisting my words, misunderstanding what I said, than calling me "moronic".
I was responding to "LifelongNiner" above who said quality is more important than position. I responded by saying 'of course quality is most important, but the niners so far haven't appeared to have hit on either quality or need'.

I liked much of the niners draft, but answer these two questions:
* Why draft AJ Jenkins, who was a project, with 5 WR's already guaranteed to be on the team?
* Why draft Slowey when they already had a very strong O-line with NINE good O-line? Slowey almost was guaranteed to be cut.
B/c none of them was regarded as a our future #1-WR???
Slowey was supposed to play at Guard or Center, imo. Two positions of short- and long-term need...I thought, it's your doctrine to think about timely updates at positions where aging will become a problem in the near future(like at Center). Just one more: you are complaining about a 6th-round pick.
[ Edited by communist on Jan 6, 2013 at 7:37 PM ]
Originally posted by maxsmart:
Thanks for twisting my words, misunderstanding what I said, than calling me "moronic".
I was responding to "LifelongNiner" above who said quality is more important than position. I responded by saying 'of course quality is most important, but the niners so far haven't appeared to have hit on either quality or need'.

I liked much of the niners draft, but answer these two questions:
* Why draft AJ Jenkins, who was a project, with 5 WR's already guaranteed to be on the team?
* Why draft Slowey when they already had a very strong O-line with NINE good O-line? Slowey almost was guaranteed to be cut.

I've stated a lot, but I never said quality is more important than position.

Flashback to where we were in January 2012, after we lost the NFC championship game. Do you remember who we had as our receivers outside of Michael Crabtree? In free agency, we signed Randy Moss, who was out of football for a year, and Mario Manningham. I honestly don't remember anyone being comfortable with our group of receivers at the time and I don't blame Baalke/Harbaugh for not being comfortable either. So they went and drafted for the biggest need, which was receiver.

There was no way they were going D-Line with that first pick. Let's look at where we are now. If we did not have AJ Jenkins, we would almost be in the exact same spot as we were last year headed into the playoffs. Unless you are ok with Peele or Swain coming in. Having Wolfe or Reyes would not have changed much because neither would've really saw the field this season. At best, they would've been on the game day roster more than Jenkins, but as far as playing time, we would've never saw any DE draft pick until week 16.

I have a few questions. What 5 good receivers did we have in April 2012? Everyone still wasn't sold on Crabtree. Randy Moss had been out for a year. Please don't tell me you are counting Kyle Williams, who was more potential than productivity at the time. In April 2012, I count ONE good receiver.

What 9 good offensive lineman did we have in April 2012? Everyone wasn't sold on Anthony Davis. We were letting Snyder (who would be solid in a backup role) and Chilo Rachal walk. I'd count Staley, Iupati, and Goodwyn as our "good" o-linemen at the time. They were going to work Boone in at RG, but none of us knew that he would work out yet. How often was Kilgore even active for us to evaluate him? I'm counting 3 good o-linemen. I'm sorry, but strong is not what you would describe our o-line after the 2011 season. Now you can, but not back then.

The team also seemed to be pretty high on Williams, Dobbs, and Tufuaku. Not as the replacement for Justin Smith, but more so, that they could come and fill in for the starters. No one is arguing that defensive line isn't a need. It just didn't appear to be the greatest need in the first round given the circumstances at the time.

Had we taken someone else in the 2nd, then we would be without LeMichael James. I'd be more on board with you if you felt we could've taken better receiver at 30 last year, but to say we should've gone in a different direction when we had 3 clear starters on defensive line, verses what we were working with at receiver, I can't agree with.

One thing that I will say, unless someone takes a Randy Moss like fall in the draft, we will definitely be going NT or DE in the first in 2013 .
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Assuming where a player is drafted determines how good they're going to be in the NFL equals stupid. This thread equals fail.
Originally posted by maxsmart:
The Packers do indeed have a lot of WR's. None of them are first round picks, but they do have a few 2nd rd WR's. BTW we have 3 1st rd WR's . . . but I do see your point.

However, since you brought up the butt Packers, the Packers have TWO 1st rd plus TWO 2nd rd D-linemen, and they carry 7 DLine on the roster. This year they used their 2nd and 4th rd picks on D-line, plus their 1st rd pick is a converted DE.

And despite all those 1 st round picks their defense is still mediorce. They were 32nd in the league last season. Our defense was 1# in rushing. They picked based on need. Now their defense is 11th. Our offense was 26th and that's with a great running game. We drafted based on need and now were 11# in offense. It all makes sense. I think it great we don't need #1picks to b #1. Same way green bay and their medicare receivers. Look at the Lions and their stock of #1s. Really sad to see suh wasted like that but my point is #1 pick mean nothing. Discipline and training all day.
Totally agree that we haven't sufficiently addressed our DLine in the last few years.

That said, I'm a believer that the wars are won in the trenches on both sides of the ball. I think we should target at least one each w/high & mid round picks every year. I hate the Giants BUT they do that every year and always have a very good pass rush & D.

But when you look back at the Giants [I hate them] play off game; our overwhelming weakness was WR. Our guys couldn't get separation including Crabs.

So Baalke/JH got some fast guys one a receiver and the other a RB. Plus Moss & Manningham.

W/out going through the rest of the draft - they went in to fill a glaring weakness.

They'll do the same this year. I see NT. DE in the first 3-4 picks and maybe a sleeper or two in later picks. OBVIOUSLY it's a guess but based on what they did at receiver I can see them following that pattern.
We haven't addressed the Dline because it was performing at a very high level. It wasn't until the second half of this season that some cracks have shown in the armor. I suspect we will address the Nose and maybe look for Cowboy's heir this year. Unless we lose Goldson....then we probably have to go one d-line starter and depth.
[ Edited by PhillyNiner on Jan 7, 2013 at 6:52 PM ]
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Originally posted by PhillyNiner:
We haven't addressed the Dline because it was performing at a very high level. It wasn't until the second half of this season that some cracks have shown in the armor. I suspect we will address the Nose and maybe look for Cowboy's heir this year. Unless we lose Goldson....then we probably have to go one d-line starter and depth.
do you think we spend the first two picks on defensive linemen? i think there is no way we can not
Definitley one...but the other is probably BPA...then go Dline again with the many thirds. But that's all guess work, just like everyone else. If we luck out BPA is Dline.
Originally posted by maxsmart:
They haven't drafted ANY D line in 3 years. The drafted RJF in 7th rd 4 years ago and McDonald in 3rd rd 6 years ago. Not even throwing a couple of late 5-7th rd picks at the D line over the last few years. The "value this adds to the board" is that we need to look at the truth of what mistakes we made in order to correct them going forward. The truth is that we have neglected the D line.

I have nothing against AJ Jenkins, but to compare Jenkins to Rice doesn't "add any value to this board"
Rice's Rookie stats:
49 catches
927 yards
18.9 yards per catch

Technically Baalke did. Aldon played DE at Missouri
[ Edited by Hopper on Jan 7, 2013 at 11:25 PM ]
One explanation for the 49ers win-win-loss pattern from SF Chronicle
http://blog.sfgate.com/49ers/2013/01/07/one-explaination-for-the-49ers-win-win-loss-pattern/
"It seemed strange – every third game like clock work, the 49ers collapsed . . . . So what can explain this pattern? One characteristic of their losses and the tie was their inability to stop the run. . . . In four of their non-wins, the defensive line lost control of the line of scrimmage. . . . One reason may be that the 49ers rarely substitute on their defensive line, and their line is among the oldest in the league. . . The 49ers pride themselves on being physical, however in their second season of playing smash-mouth defense, their line shows a pattern or wearing out every third game."

The D-line was OLD, their depth was poor, and yet they neglected the D-line. They should have jumped at the great opportunity to draft Reyes or Wolfe . . . but we all make mistakes, hopefully Jenkins becomes a star
Originally posted by Hopper:
Originally posted by maxsmart:
They haven't drafted ANY D line in 3 years. The drafted RJF in 7th rd 4 years ago and McDonald in 3rd rd 6 years ago. Not even throwing a couple of late 5-7th rd picks at the D line over the last few years. The "value this adds to the board" is that we need to look at the truth of what mistakes we made in order to correct them going forward. The truth is that we have neglected the D line.

Technically Baalke did. Aldon played DE at Missouri

I'm talking about a 3-down 3-4 DE who can stop the run and also rush the passer. ~300-315 lbs. Similar to Ray McDonald and Justin Smith who stay on the field even against the nickel because they can rush the passer; guys like Derek Wolfe, Kendall Reyes.