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MadDog's Big 253 Board- March 23rd Edition

  • GORO
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MadDog49er what do you think about Nick Toon. I believe coming out of a west coast offense he makes sense for the 49ers.
  • dj43
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  • Posts: 20,958
Originally posted by GORO:
Originally posted by English:
Weaker?

I make Manningham an upgrade on Morgan, and even if Moss disappoints he can't be described as a downgrade on Edwards!

And with the draft and the cut downs to come, no concerns here.


Weaker than last year? We had Swaine active and another reciever I donot care to remember. Crabtree, Ginn, Williams were the three that had most playing time. Williams showed promise but Ginn is a better returner. Manningham had a down year last year but came up with big plays in the Championship and Superbowl so he already is an upgrade. If Alex doesnot learn to trust his recievers he will be benched and this new group will be more productive either with Alex or not.

In my view, the 49ers have a bunch of guys who would be 2s, 3s and a 4th on a good passing team. None of them by themselves are going to cause any DC to stay awake at night figuring out how to stop them.

So the issue going forward is not how the team finished the season (Swain, Hastings and Ginn) but what was the pattern Harbaugh set for the team. The Edwards signing sent a clear message that JH wants a big, strong guy who can win the aerial battles. Edwards' problems were well-known as are Moss'. I see them as interchangeable pieces though I question whether Moss can still get anything done.

Given the very short time together last PS, Morgan was rounding into an effective player. Manningham is the replacement for Morgan. MM benefitted greatly from being the 3rd option behind Nicks and Cruz. He almost never drew double coverage and usually was guarded by the opponent's 2nd or 3rd best DB. Consequently, he did have some decent plays but it is very difficult to consider him to be a "playmaker" despite the one spectacular catch in the SB. He may be an upgrade from Morgan but only time will tell. I see him as better in some areas but not as good in others. It is a draw.

The big question then as far as the draft is concerned is; how do Baalke and Harbaugh view the upside of Williams and Crabtree? We all hope Crabtree will be healthy and round into the player his draft status suggests but we haven't seen enough of that player on the field to know. The coaches, who only saw him on a regular basis in practice the last 6 weeks of the season are the only ones who really have an idea as to what he can do.

Williams, according to Kevin Lynch and other writers who cover the team, is a guy the coaches like as a slot receiver. He has also been somewhat limited by injuries so his play time has not given us a full view of what he can do. Do the coaches like him enough as a quick Wes Welker-type slot guy, or do they grab someone like Joe Adams in the 4th or thereabouts? Only the draft will tell.

So it comes down to how confident Harbaugh is in building the team around two guys who have yet to reach their potential, along with two other guys who appear to clearly be stop gaps. If I read this right, that suggests to me they will be drafting at least two WRs; one, big, tall "vertical" player a la a younger Randy Moss/Braylon Edwards type, and two, a speed guy with hands who can also be a returner at some point in the future. NOTE: I do not see the 49ers holding a place for a specialty only return guy who cannot also contribute on the field in the case of injury to a starter. IOW, as valuable as Ginn was last season, as a one-trick-pony I don't see him with the team long-term unless he suddenly learns how to play WR on a consistently higher level than he has to date.
Originally posted by dj43:
In my view, the 49ers have a bunch of guys who would be 2s, 3s and a 4th on a good passing team. None of them by themselves are going to cause any DC to stay awake at night figuring out how to stop them.

So the issue going forward is not how the team finished the season (Swain, Hastings and Ginn) but what was the pattern Harbaugh set for the team. The Edwards signing sent a clear message that JH wants a big, strong guy who can win the aerial battles. Edwards' problems were well-known as are Moss'. I see them as interchangeable pieces though I question whether Moss can still get anything done.

Given the very short time together last PS, Morgan was rounding into an effective player. Manningham is the replacement for Morgan. MM benefitted greatly from being the 3rd option behind Nicks and Cruz. He almost never drew double coverage and usually was guarded by the opponent's 2nd or 3rd best DB. Consequently, he did have some decent plays but it is very difficult to consider him to be a "playmaker" despite the one spectacular catch in the SB. He may be an upgrade from Morgan but only time will tell. I see him as better in some areas but not as good in others. It is a draw.

The big question then as far as the draft is concerned is; how do Baalke and Harbaugh view the upside of Williams and Crabtree? We all hope Crabtree will be healthy and round into the player his draft status suggests but we haven't seen enough of that player on the field to know. The coaches, who only saw him on a regular basis in practice the last 6 weeks of the season are the only ones who really have an idea as to what he can do.

Williams, according to Kevin Lynch and other writers who cover the team, is a guy the coaches like as a slot receiver. He has also been somewhat limited by injuries so his play time has not given us a full view of what he can do. Do the coaches like him enough as a quick Wes Welker-type slot guy, or do they grab someone like Joe Adams in the 4th or thereabouts? Only the draft will tell.

So it comes down to how confident Harbaugh is in building the team around two guys who have yet to reach their potential, along with two other guys who appear to clearly be stop gaps. If I read this right, that suggests to me they will be drafting at least two WRs; one, big, tall "vertical" player a la a younger Randy Moss/Braylon Edwards type, and two, a speed guy with hands who can also be a returner at some point in the future. NOTE: I do not see the 49ers holding a place for a specialty only return guy who cannot also contribute on the field in the case of injury to a starter. IOW, as valuable as Ginn was last season, as a one-trick-pony I don't see him with the team long-term unless he suddenly learns how to play WR on a consistently higher level than he has to date.

Part of your good analysis should include that Morgan didn't play much last year. Edwards was also injured. If Manningham and Moss simply take their places, that isn't necessarily not a sign of improvement over last season.
  • dj43
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Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Originally posted by dj43:
In my view, the 49ers have a bunch of guys who would be 2s, 3s and a 4th on a good passing team. None of them by themselves are going to cause any DC to stay awake at night figuring out how to stop them.

So the issue going forward is not how the team finished the season (Swain, Hastings and Ginn) but what was the pattern Harbaugh set for the team. The Edwards signing sent a clear message that JH wants a big, strong guy who can win the aerial battles. Edwards' problems were well-known as are Moss'. I see them as interchangeable pieces though I question whether Moss can still get anything done.

Given the very short time together last PS, Morgan was rounding into an effective player. Manningham is the replacement for Morgan. MM benefitted greatly from being the 3rd option behind Nicks and Cruz. He almost never drew double coverage and usually was guarded by the opponent's 2nd or 3rd best DB. Consequently, he did have some decent plays but it is very difficult to consider him to be a "playmaker" despite the one spectacular catch in the SB. He may be an upgrade from Morgan but only time will tell. I see him as better in some areas but not as good in others. It is a draw.

The big question then as far as the draft is concerned is; how do Baalke and Harbaugh view the upside of Williams and Crabtree? We all hope Crabtree will be healthy and round into the player his draft status suggests but we haven't seen enough of that player on the field to know. The coaches, who only saw him on a regular basis in practice the last 6 weeks of the season are the only ones who really have an idea as to what he can do.

Williams, according to Kevin Lynch and other writers who cover the team, is a guy the coaches like as a slot receiver. He has also been somewhat limited by injuries so his play time has not given us a full view of what he can do. Do the coaches like him enough as a quick Wes Welker-type slot guy, or do they grab someone like Joe Adams in the 4th or thereabouts? Only the draft will tell.

So it comes down to how confident Harbaugh is in building the team around two guys who have yet to reach their potential, along with two other guys who appear to clearly be stop gaps. If I read this right, that suggests to me they will be drafting at least two WRs; one, big, tall "vertical" player a la a younger Randy Moss/Braylon Edwards type, and two, a speed guy with hands who can also be a returner at some point in the future. NOTE: I do not see the 49ers holding a place for a specialty only return guy who cannot also contribute on the field in the case of injury to a starter. IOW, as valuable as Ginn was last season, as a one-trick-pony I don't see him with the team long-term unless he suddenly learns how to play WR on a consistently higher level than he has to date.

Part of your good analysis should include that Morgan didn't play much last year. Edwards was also injured. If Manningham and Moss simply take their places, that isn't necessarily not a sign of improvement over last season.

Thank you for that inclusion. Yes, I do not see the current group as much of an improvement over last season. That is why I expect to see a couple of picks spent on receivers. I believe we are fooling ourselves if we believe Harbaugh is ALL about a team built around power running. He has always had a stronger passing component than we had last season, and will want to replicate that in the future.
Originally posted by dj43:
MD. Always enjoy your board and comments. While I am not as confident of the current group of WRs as you are, I agree with your assessment of the need at RG AND center. Everyone talks about the 49ers needing to run more slants and quick throws over the middle but too much of the time last season I watched Snyder and Goodwin get pushed back into Alex' face immediately after the ball was snapped. If the passing game is going to improve this next season, it will take more than Moss and Manningham to do it. It will take a solid RG and a center that can hold the front of the pocket. Hence Zeitler or a move up for Konz would not surprise me at all.

Agreed. Until we shore up the center and RG position, I think the offense is going to continue to struggle. I just don't see a commitment from the team to address these issues. Did they really think Rachal was the answer going into 2012? Mystifying to me.
Originally posted by dhp318:
I don't think there's any way the 49ers go into training camp without drafting another interior lineman.


or a running back and a safety, for that matter.

Agree with these three. The issue is where the player is selected in the draft.
Originally posted by jreff22:
Don't like this situation, we have no clear cut #1 and a bunch of low end guys. If we wait to draft a WR after the 3rd I will be agitated.

You are right that there appears to be no clear cut number one WR on this roster. But, at 30, I am not sure there are many number one guys who will be on the board. I love Sanu, but even then cannot figure out if he is a number one or two at the next level.
Originally posted by hofer36:
so if baalke is bound and determined to draft a defensive end to help justin smith and ray mcdonald get some rest, who do they look at?

In the first, Kendall Reyes. In the third, if on the board, Kheeston Randle. In the late fourth, maybe a Hicks or Wolfe. I am guessing the team addresses this in the fourth or fifth round at the earliest.
  • Amir
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Originally posted by GORO:
MadDog49er what do you think about Nick Toon. I believe coming out of a west coast offense he makes sense for the 49ers.

That's obviously a made up name. Please stop wasting maddogs time.
Originally posted by GORO:
MadDog49er what do you think about Nick Toon. I believe coming out of a west coast offense he makes sense for the 49ers.

Watched nearly every game for Wisconsine through Toon's career, and I am simply not impressed. He posted a fast forty time at the Wisconsin workout, but plays much slower on the field. Looks more a poor man's Brian Robiskie, and we all know how Robiskie's career has gone.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
You are right that there appears to be no clear cut number one WR on this roster. But, at 30, I am not sure there are many number one guys who will be on the board. I love Sanu, but even then cannot figure out if he is a number one or two at the next level.

Who are real #1 receivers this year ? Blackmon, Floyd, maybe Wright, but else ? Hill or Randle ? I don't really think so. Looks like you have to be lucky to get a #1 this year if you are picking later than #15
Originally posted by dj43:
Thank you for that inclusion. Yes, I do not see the current group as much of an improvement over last season. That is why I expect to see a couple of picks spent on receivers. I believe we are fooling ourselves if we believe Harbaugh is ALL about a team built around power running. He has always had a stronger passing component than we had last season, and will want to replicate that in the future.
We already have a full roster of WRs including the usual suspects on the practice squad. Any more selections will probably require Moss, Manningham, Williams or Ginn to be cut or inactive. Unless that draft selection is the #1 WR, then it would be a waste. Certainly two picks at WR would waste one. The team has a higher need for starters and backup at OL, DL, LB, and safety.

I agree that the Niners don't have a clear cut #1, but there is improvement over last year, with a full off-season, Crabtree healthy, Crabtree, Williams and Ginn a year deeper into the playbook. Moss may frustrate himself off the team but Edwards was a non-factor last year. So, at worst, that's a wash. Manningham should at least produce what Morgan did last year.

Right guard is a bigger need at this point than WR. My feeling is that the Niners will not draft lower than the 2nd round for a guard. If the Niners can't find a certain #1 in the first round either at #30 or by trading up, I think they'll wait until the fourth round to select a WR/returner like Wylie. Fleener seems the most likely pick at #30. He would be insurance against both Moss flaking and Walker leaving next year.
[ Edited by Paul_Hofer on Mar 26, 2012 at 11:56 AM ]
Missing player who I think should be on here:

CB Keith Tandy, WVU.

5-10 197 4.43, 35-inch vertical, 10 foot broad jump, 16 reps. Steelers meeting with him soon.
[ Edited by OnTheClock on Mar 26, 2012 at 11:44 AM ]
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
What do you think it would take to jump and get Konz? Do you feel that the difference between Konz and Zeitler is larger than the quality of player we can get in say Rd. 3? If so, I think we can trade up a few spots with a 3rd round pick.

Probably would take a 3rd or 4th rounder. Just really matters when the team projects him to be gone, and if they are willing to move up and make that trade. I think Konz is really, really good. I have graded as a top ten talent in this draft.
Mad Dog:
Could you put your grading list on the board for us to process? Then could you put your views of what you think that the Niner's list would be on the board?
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Missing player who I think should be on here:

CB Keith Tandy, WVU.

5-10 197 4.43, 35-inch vertical, 10 foot broad jump, 16 reps. Steelers meeting with him soon.

He's on the board after the workout. Project him as a 6th rounder right now.