There are 111 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

"Tape"

Originally posted by WillistheWall:
So let me get this straight, they do a better job predicting where players will go and which players will be taken, and how a lot of those players will turn out, but they are actually NOT comparable to the guys who do it for a living just because those guys get a pay check to do it?

Gotcha

Two separate things being talked about here:

1. Draft prediction: Who goes where and when.

2. Player evaluation: Who SHOULD go where and when.

Like I said, I don't know OTC or MadDog personally, but I assume they have full-time gigs that prevent them from breaking down tape all day. That aside, they do an excellent job, and if they had the time and resources that the pros do, I'd give their opinions the same credence. It's a question of opportunity, not ability.

I don't know about you, but I find there are a lot of things I could do better if I wasn't working 60 hours a week at something else.

I'll never understand all the Kiper and McShay hate from the amateur draftnik crowd. They both do a pretty damn good job. It's not like they are where they are because their dads work for ESPN.
[ Edited by JamesGatz83 on Mar 3, 2012 at 7:25 AM ]
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Couple notes:
1. Every evaluator has their strengths and weaknesses. For a person like Kiper, he is brilliant at identifying small school sleepers way ahead of the crowd, like Joe Flacco and Mike Iupati. However, at the same time, his draft projections are usually sub-standard.
2. As for Mayock, he is really good at breaking down players, showing the strengths and weaknesses of their skills. However, on the flip side, he tends to become too emotionally attached to certain players, and often downplays their weaknesses. Whenever you say, "my guy", which he does often, you tend to lose objectivity.
3. OTC probably watched more football than anyone in America, so he should be taken seriously when he makes a statement, regardless of whether he is a paid professional or an amateur.
4. As for myself, I am very mediocre at hitting first round players in the correct spot, but smoke the paid pros in the amount of overall guys drafted out of the 253, 255 or whatever number is listed each year. I am better at gauging what teams are looking for in prospects in pulling the trigger.

With each draft analyst, paid or amateur, you have to take each with a grain of salt. The draft is like witchcraft, and those who think they know what they are doing are routinely humbled. In the end, it is all a speculated guess on how players will perform, and each individual has to create their own mental matrix to figure out how to grade each prospect. In some cases, it simply boils down to hunches, a gut level feeling.

In relation to the original post, I think the term tape means many things to many different people. Old schoolers, such as myself, are used to videotaping games, workouts, practices, anything, to analyze. The term, DVR, is somewhat new to many people. At the same time, it is true that for some positions on the field (especially the secondary positions), having real tape that isolates on the player pre-snap through whistle is invaluable. ESPN coverage will not provide that information.

Agreed on all points. As I said, you and OTC do an EXCELLENT job and I've loved reading your analyses for years on here. I have great respect for both of you.

My only point was that, despite all the hate the pros get, they do an excellent job and are working with tremendous resources, time, and access. Like you mentioned, scouting footage is invaluable and obviously not easy to come by.
[ Edited by JamesGatz83 on Mar 3, 2012 at 7:30 AM ]
Just spent 5 hours watching tape....its addicting. Had to stop so I did other stuff today. Things that stood out to me:

Reiff: I'm going to move Reiff ahead of Kalil, I think Reiff has much better technique
Fletcher Cox: This guy is really impressive, top 15 prospect IMO
Colby Fleener: One thing not mentioned much is how outstanding of a blocker this guy is
Zach Brown: Okay I get the knock on this guy, he has no football instinct or IQ. He would be a downright horrible player if it wasn't for his amazing sideline-to-sideline speed
Morris Claibourne: I downgraded him a little bit, he is a physical DB but a lot of the stuff he pulls would be called in the NFL, when he gets beat he constantly grabs (and doesn't get called). So on one hand, shows some savy on his part. On the other hand, I don't think it will fly in the NFL
Melvin Ingram: I've upgraded him to a top 10 talent, and I think he could legitimately challenge Coples for top DE. He is an all around player with multiple pass rushing moves, and moves GREAT in space. He can definately project as an OLB IMO. For a 264lb guy, he moves like he is 230lbs.
[ Edited by SunDevilNiner79 on Mar 3, 2012 at 2:17 PM ]
Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:
You really don't follow the draft then

MadDog and OTC have beaten both McShay and Kiper in draft accuracy....

Watch their big board that they post when the draft is near, for the last couple of years its been far more accurate at predicting where players are taken then ESPN's talking heads.

And as far as both of them not having all day to watch film, how do you know McShay and Kiper watch film? Both are paid for ENTERTAINMENT, not for accuracy of predictions. If they were accurate, why aren't they in the NFL building a SB team?

Both MadDog and OTC dont have any more of a clue than the two ESPN clowns. They read other draftniks, read reports on players and form their board that way. A simple search can provide all the hilarious prognostications both have made on this forum.
I believe its call FILM anyway. You dont go down the hall to the Tape room. I beliebe it is called a film room where they break down the film.
Originally posted by JimmyMcnulty:
Both MadDog and OTC dont have any more of a clue than the two ESPN clowns. They read other draftniks, read reports on players and form their board that way. A simple search can provide all the hilarious prognostications both have made on this forum.

thats because they are watching the same gametape on them

either a player is fast or hes not
he either has good technique or not

its not copying if bith are watching the same tape and they see it...
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
thats because they are watching the same gametape on them

either a player is fast or hes not
he either has good technique or not

its not copying if bith are watching the same tape and they see it...

I think Jimmy was implying maddog and otc don't watch the tape, they just read other opinions.
  • kush
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 2,698
Originally posted by Engleburger:
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
thats because they are watching the same gametape on them

either a player is fast or hes not
he either has good technique or not

its not copying if bith are watching the same tape and they see it...

I think Jimmy was implying maddog and otc don't watch the tape, they just read other opinions.

Dude gtfo, OTC watches more tape than anbody in the world. Ya'll need to stop trying to watch games to make your own opinions when OTC can give you your opinion for you.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Couple notes:
1. Every evaluator has their strengths and weaknesses. For a person like Kiper, he is brilliant at identifying small school sleepers way ahead of the crowd, like Joe Flacco and Mike Iupati. However, at the same time, his draft projections are usually sub-standard.
2. As for Mayock, he is really good at breaking down players, showing the strengths and weaknesses of their skills. However, on the flip side, he tends to become too emotionally attached to certain players, and often downplays their weaknesses. Whenever you say, "my guy", which he does often, you tend to lose objectivity.
3. OTC probably watched more football than anyone in America, so he should be taken seriously when he makes a statement, regardless of whether he is a paid professional or an amateur.
4. As for myself, I am very mediocre at hitting first round players in the correct spot, but smoke the paid pros in the amount of overall guys drafted out of the 253, 255 or whatever number is listed each year. I am better at gauging what teams are looking for in prospects in pulling the trigger.

With each draft analyst, paid or amateur, you have to take each with a grain of salt. The draft is like witchcraft, and those who think they know what they are doing are routinely humbled. In the end, it is all a speculated guess on how players will perform, and each individual has to create their own mental matrix to figure out how to grade each prospect. In some cases, it simply boils down to hunches, a gut level feeling.

In relation to the original post, I think the term tape means many things to many different people. Old schoolers, such as myself, are used to videotaping games, workouts, practices, anything, to analyze. The term, DVR, is somewhat new to many people. At the same time, it is true that for some positions on the field (especially the secondary positions), having real tape that isolates on the player pre-snap through whistle is invaluable. ESPN coverage will not provide that information.

MD, just to be clear, I didn't mean this post for people who watch recorded games. Specifically I meant my frustration for people who watch only the highlights of 3-15 plays and make blanket statements about how a player has good hands...as if someone actually doesn't catch everything in a highlight! I respect re-watching games, even watching the YouTube videos that show every play the player has been involved in. This was in no way meant to offend you or OTC, or several other posters
[ Edited by RollinWith21n52 on Mar 7, 2012 at 6:45 AM ]
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Couple notes:
1. Every evaluator has their strengths and weaknesses. For a person like Kiper, he is brilliant at identifying small school sleepers way ahead of the crowd, like Joe Flacco and Mike Iupati. However, at the same time, his draft projections are usually sub-standard.
2. As for Mayock, he is really good at breaking down players, showing the strengths and weaknesses of their skills. However, on the flip side, he tends to become too emotionally attached to certain players, and often downplays their weaknesses. Whenever you say, "my guy", which he does often, you tend to lose objectivity.
3. OTC probably watched more football than anyone in America, so he should be taken seriously when he makes a statement, regardless of whether he is a paid professional or an amateur.
4. As for myself, I am very mediocre at hitting first round players in the correct spot, but smoke the paid pros in the amount of overall guys drafted out of the 253, 255 or whatever number is listed each year. I am better at gauging what teams are looking for in prospects in pulling the trigger.

With each draft analyst, paid or amateur, you have to take each with a grain of salt. The draft is like witchcraft, and those who think they know what they are doing are routinely humbled. In the end, it is all a speculated guess on how players will perform, and each individual has to create their own mental matrix to figure out how to grade each prospect. In some cases, it simply boils down to hunches, a gut level feeling.

In relation to the original post, I think the term tape means many things to many different people. Old schoolers, such as myself, are used to videotaping games, workouts, practices, anything, to analyze. The term, DVR, is somewhat new to many people. At the same time, it is true that for some positions on the field (especially the secondary positions), having real tape that isolates on the player pre-snap through whistle is invaluable. ESPN coverage will not provide that information.

MD, just to be clear, I didn't mean this post for people who watch recorded games. Specifically I meant my frustration for people who watch only the highlights of 3-15 plays and make blanket statements about how a player has good hands...as if someone actually doesn't catch everything in a highlight! I respect re-watching games, even watching the YouTube videos that show every play the player has been involved in. This was in no way meant to offend you or OTC, or several other posters

Don't sweat it. You haven't posted anything in this thread that would offend them. Only really see one post that could, and it wasn't from you.
Originally posted by Baugh_Area:
Dude gtfo, OTC watches more tape than anbody in the world. Ya'll need to stop trying to watch games to make your own opinions when OTC can give you your opinion for you.

After watching "tape" Dontari Poe is the next Demarcus Dobbs! Trade up to get him!
My only problem with a lot of armature guys is just there hatred for the guys on tv. They like to point out where an expert was wrong but, never when they were right. They hang on to a few incorrect evaluations and hold that against experts like it's a death sentence. Aside from that you can't tell that you read MD,OTC, sundevil,ghostoffreddean, jreff22 etc... comments and don't come away thinking that all these guys are knowledgeable. Sometimes you agree or disagree with there evaluations but that comes with the territory. And in part makes the process what it is.
Originally posted by Engleburger:
After watching "tape" Dontari Poe is the next Demarcus Dobbs! Trade up to get him!

poe is a beast he will go top 15 (i know your being sarcastic)
at 350 pounds he ran a 4.8 or something and had a great bench press as well

hes physically a beast
  • kush
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 2,698
350 pounds - check

4.8 40 yard dash - check

40 odd reps on the bench - check

Looks athletic moving around in shorts and a shirt - check

I'm with you 49ersalldaway, Poe passes the armchair GM combine checklist. Looks like top 10 material to me. I can't see any flaws. What a well rounded player! Fast, big and strong, what else could you possibly need to know about him?!