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"Tape"

Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Gosh Dangit! I was watching the wrong tape!

i only have access to youtube and i prefer the highlights and lowlights type videos. wish i had access to baalkes tapes tho.
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Just to clarify. This is not meant as a slight to Ghost, OTC, MD, and a few others. I'm referring more to people who throw the term around loosely, and don't actually even watch games, instead look exclusively at highlights. Perhaps the better topic title is "highlights are not tape". I meant the other 3 tape options as perfectly valid, and completely understand that really the mid 2 are the best resources any of us have. I apologize if it came off as insulting to people who record and watch games, because I really respect that. It's particularly the "I watched a 30 second highlight, and thus think I can talk about tape" people that I'm trying to speak to.

I don't even think some of these posters go back and actually watch film. They just read a lot of internet mock drafts and spew out info already reported by people like Mike Mayock. Very rarely on this forum do I see people go out on a limb and actually say something about a prospect that isn't already common knowledge.

Then some are just totally clueless. Read the Kellen Moore thread if you want to know what I mean.
[ Edited by Engleburger on Mar 1, 2012 at 7:46 PM ]
Originally posted by thuglife619:
i only have access to youtube and i prefer the highlights and lowlights type videos. wish i had access to baalkes tapes tho.

espn3.com is your friend
Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:
It annoys me people rely on McShay and Kiper so much.

McShay had RG3 projecting as a WIDE RECIEVER, lol. Yet people think his opinion is more valuable then some of us amateurs. I wouldn't be surprised if guys like McShay or Kiper get a lot of their info from the amateur sites onthe web.

Guys on this board like MadDog or OTC have a proven track record with their accuracy on draft day, even better then McShay and Kiper.

No offense to OTC or MadDog, who both do a great job, but Kiper, McShay, and other professional scouts have obvious advantages from the standpoint of time and resources. They actually do watch the "tape." Amateur scouts (i.e. people with full-time jobs) aren't spending nearly the same amount of time or energy on the process.

And you can cherry pick examples where they missed on players, but the fact is their opinions ARE more valuable than ours--at least according to the market, which, as far as I'm concerned, is the only objective measure anyway. Nobody's paying for the opinions of amateur scouts, hence their amateur status.
Originally posted by JamesGatz83:
Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:
It annoys me people rely on McShay and Kiper so much.

McShay had RG3 projecting as a WIDE RECIEVER, lol. Yet people think his opinion is more valuable then some of us amateurs. I wouldn't be surprised if guys like McShay or Kiper get a lot of their info from the amateur sites onthe web.

Guys on this board like MadDog or OTC have a proven track record with their accuracy on draft day, even better then McShay and Kiper.

No offense to OTC or MadDog, who both do a great job, but Kiper, McShay, and other professional scouts have obvious advantages from the standpoint of time and resources. They actually do watch the "tape." Amateur scouts (i.e. people with full-time jobs) aren't spending nearly the same amount of time or energy on the process.

And you can cherry pick examples where they missed on players, but the fact is their opinions ARE more valuable than ours--at least according to the market, which, as far as I'm concerned, is the only objective measure anyway. Nobody's paying for the opinions of amateur scouts, hence their amateur status.

OTC and MD get damn good results with what they do. To each their own, but I have grown to trust their views over McShay and Kiper. They have the resources, not as sure about the time. Being on TV requires a lot of time. Sometimes hours lost simply due to make-up and crap. Being on TV so often forces them to provide a lot of quantity, which can cause the quality to suffer a lot of the time. OTC and MD do not have such pressures. Seems to make a bit of difference at least in narrowing the information for us to surround players more likely to be targeted by our team. They are ameteurs, yes, but they do a damn good job for the rest of us, and in that way, I think their views tend to be more valuable than the talking heads. Simply my opinion on what I've observed over the last several years.
Originally posted by JamesGatz83:
Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:
It annoys me people rely on McShay and Kiper so much.

McShay had RG3 projecting as a WIDE RECIEVER, lol. Yet people think his opinion is more valuable then some of us amateurs. I wouldn't be surprised if guys like McShay or Kiper get a lot of their info from the amateur sites onthe web.

Guys on this board like MadDog or OTC have a proven track record with their accuracy on draft day, even better then McShay and Kiper.

No offense to OTC or MadDog, who both do a great job, but Kiper, McShay, and other professional scouts have obvious advantages from the standpoint of time and resources. They actually do watch the "tape." Amateur scouts (i.e. people with full-time jobs) aren't spending nearly the same amount of time or energy on the process.

And you can cherry pick examples where they missed on players, but the fact is their opinions ARE more valuable than ours--at least according to the market, which, as far as I'm concerned, is the only objective measure anyway. Nobody's paying for the opinions of amateur scouts, hence their amateur status.

You really don't follow the draft then

MadDog and OTC have beaten both McShay and Kiper in draft accuracy....

Watch their big board that they post when the draft is near, for the last couple of years its been far more accurate at predicting where players are taken then ESPN's talking heads.

And as far as both of them not having all day to watch film, how do you know McShay and Kiper watch film? Both are paid for ENTERTAINMENT, not for accuracy of predictions. If they were accurate, why aren't they in the NFL building a SB team?
Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:
You really don't follow the draft then

MadDog and OTC have beaten both McShay and Kiper in draft accuracy....

Watch their big board that they post when the draft is near, for the last couple of years its been far more accurate at predicting where players are taken then ESPN's talking heads.

And as far as both of them not having all day to watch film, how do you know McShay and Kiper watch film? Both are paid for ENTERTAINMENT, not for accuracy of predictions. If they were accurate, why aren't they in the NFL building a SB team?

They have their own scouts similar to comedians having writers. Kiper and McShay don't do all the work which weakens their opinions.
Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:
You really don't follow the draft then

MadDog and OTC have beaten both McShay and Kiper in draft accuracy....

Watch their big board that they post when the draft is near, for the last couple of years its been far more accurate at predicting where players are taken then ESPN's talking heads.

And as far as both of them not having all day to watch film, how do you know McShay and Kiper watch film? Both are paid for ENTERTAINMENT, not for accuracy of predictions. If they were accurate, why aren't they in the NFL building a SB team?

Draft prediction isn't the topic at hand. They are excellent at that, but it's something that takes relatively little time to what we're actually talking about here.

The topic at hand is player evaluation and breaking down tape. I don't know what OTC and Mad Dog do for a living, but I doubt they have the backgrounds in player evaluation that guys like McShay, Kiper, Gil Brandt, Gary Horton, etc. have.
Originally posted by Joecool:
They have their own scouts similar to comedians having writers. Kiper and McShay don't do all the work which weakens their opinions.

I know it's standard for all "informed" football fans to bash Kiper and McShay, but one built himself into the foremost draft information authority basically out of his basement and the other played QB at Richmond before becoming the head of a major national scouting firm in his early 30s. They both deserve way more credit than they're given.
Originally posted by JamesGatz83:
I know it's standard for all "informed" football fans to bash Kiper and McShay, but one built himself into the foremost draft information authority basically out of his basement and the other played QB at Richmond before becoming the head of a major national scouting firm in his early 30s. They both deserve way more credit than they're given.

^^^Todd McShay's little brother apparently
Originally posted by JamesGatz83:
Originally posted by Joecool:
They have their own scouts similar to comedians having writers. Kiper and McShay don't do all the work which weakens their opinions.

I know it's standard for all "informed" football fans to bash Kiper and McShay, but one built himself into the foremost draft information authority basically out of his basement and the other played QB at Richmond before becoming the head of a major national scouting firm in his early 30s. They both deserve way more credit than they're given.

Your post previous to this and this one don't mesh very well.
Couple notes:
1. Every evaluator has their strengths and weaknesses. For a person like Kiper, he is brilliant at identifying small school sleepers way ahead of the crowd, like Joe Flacco and Mike Iupati. However, at the same time, his draft projections are usually sub-standard.
2. As for Mayock, he is really good at breaking down players, showing the strengths and weaknesses of their skills. However, on the flip side, he tends to become too emotionally attached to certain players, and often downplays their weaknesses. Whenever you say, "my guy", which he does often, you tend to lose objectivity.
3. OTC probably watched more football than anyone in America, so he should be taken seriously when he makes a statement, regardless of whether he is a paid professional or an amateur.
4. As for myself, I am very mediocre at hitting first round players in the correct spot, but smoke the paid pros in the amount of overall guys drafted out of the 253, 255 or whatever number is listed each year. I am better at gauging what teams are looking for in prospects in pulling the trigger.

With each draft analyst, paid or amateur, you have to take each with a grain of salt. The draft is like witchcraft, and those who think they know what they are doing are routinely humbled. In the end, it is all a speculated guess on how players will perform, and each individual has to create their own mental matrix to figure out how to grade each prospect. In some cases, it simply boils down to hunches, a gut level feeling.

In relation to the original post, I think the term tape means many things to many different people. Old schoolers, such as myself, are used to videotaping games, workouts, practices, anything, to analyze. The term, DVR, is somewhat new to many people. At the same time, it is true that for some positions on the field (especially the secondary positions), having real tape that isolates on the player pre-snap through whistle is invaluable. ESPN coverage will not provide that information.
[ Edited by MadDog49er on Mar 2, 2012 at 8:53 PM ]
I think its just a figure of speech for some people
Originally posted by JamesGatz83:
Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:
You really don't follow the draft then

MadDog and OTC have beaten both McShay and Kiper in draft accuracy....

Watch their big board that they post when the draft is near, for the last couple of years its been far more accurate at predicting where players are taken then ESPN's talking heads.

And as far as both of them not having all day to watch film, how do you know McShay and Kiper watch film? Both are paid for ENTERTAINMENT, not for accuracy of predictions. If they were accurate, why aren't they in the NFL building a SB team?

Draft prediction isn't the topic at hand. They are excellent at that, but it's something that takes relatively little time to what we're actually talking about here.

The topic at hand is player evaluation and breaking down tape. I don't know what OTC and Mad Dog do for a living, but I doubt they have the backgrounds in player evaluation that guys like McShay, Kiper, Gil Brandt, Gary Horton, etc. have.
So let me get this straight, they do a better job predicting where players will go and which players will be taken, and how a lot of those players will turn out, but they are actually NOT comparable to the guys who do it for a living just because those guys get a pay check to do it?

Gotcha