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robert quinn vs von miller

robert quinn vs von miller

Originally posted by sfout:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
I don't think it's close....

Quinn>>>>>Miller

Why isn't it close???

There's a good amount of video on Quinn all over the internet (game video, not highlight compilations...real video--good plays and bad). The guy is just amazing. Size, speed, quickness, anticipation, play recognition, instincts, the power with which he tackles and hits people. He looks like Lawrence Taylor. This is in no way a nock on Miller (who I'm not a HUGE fan of due to his weak tackling...can he really bring down Big Ben or Steven Jackson???). Rather this is a reflection of my view of Quinn. No denying Miller's quickness and ability to get into the backfield. But Quinn, IMO, is a very very rare prospect.

Well the things you've listed Miller stacks up right next to Quinn:

Size - Well 6'2" 240 isn't that much smaller, James Harrison and Elvis Dumerville don't exactly have ideal size either.

Speed - No doubt Miller has that.

Quickness - No denying that one either.

Play recognition/anticipation - Miller has shown to recognize a screen and doesn't bite on play-action as easy. Hes also shown a variety moves to beat an O-lineman, inside or out.

Athleticism
- Miller is more than athletic enough to drop back into coverage or stand up in a 3-4, there's also no denying that one.

Power to beat tackles or shed blocks - If you've watched at least one game, you'd see he has the power to beat an OT around him, beat a Guard with an inside move. I think Miller's strength is very underrated, it might be due to the fact that hes mostly speed and doesn't have as big as size as you'd want in a DE. But no doubt he will over power and beat an O-lineman.

I don't get how you can say this kid tackles like hes playing two-hand touch, you don't win the Dick Butkus Award because you can't tackle. Can Miller bring down a Big Ben, I'd say so, he brought down Kaepernick and Ryan Mallet with ease, and both are just as big as Rothelisberger. In what little snaps hes shown in the Senior Bowl hes shown he can make plays, lets not forget he was named Defensive player of the game.

Close, its much closer than you think.

Size isn't everything, but to say Miller and Quinn have similar size is like saying DeSean Jackson and Andre Johnson have similar size. And Kaepernick and Big Ben are similar size? WHhhhhhhaaaaaatttttt?????? Big Ben is one of the strongest QBs to ever play the game, and is very difficult to bring down. Kaepernick has the smallest legs I've ever seen on a QB. Miller has things to like about him, but these size comparisons are preposterous.

I didn't say Quinn and Miller are the same size, I said Miller isn't that much smaller. And I didn't say, Kaepernick are similar in size, I said just as big, talk about putting word in mouth sheesh. No doubt Big Ben is probably the strongest QB in the NFL, but to really question if he Miller can bring down Big Ben is non sense, shoot, Robert Mathis 6'2" 235 sometimes has no trouble taking down Big Ben. Its about the angles and how off balance you are at the time when trying to bring Roethelisberger down, not just Miller, but pretty much every defender has a hard time bringing him down.

But to knock Miller for his size and suppose poor tackling (when in fact he has more tackles in his Jr. and Sr. year than Quinn does in his fresh and Soph years) is absurd. The two knocks on Miller for one, can be gained with proper nutrition, and two, can be coached. But I just don't know what you are looking at, when you knock him for his tackling, from every game I've seen of him he looks like a very sure tackler that wraps up before going for the big hit.

I just don't get the hype for Quinn, I'm not saying hes not any good, but one good year isn't enough to wow me. if anything, Ryan Kerrigan has been more consistent and productive than Quinn.

I've used this example in every Robert Quinn thread. How has Quinn remained a top10 talent through a year off while his teammate Marvin Austin(A preseason top15 talent) who suffered a year ban as well, has dropped all the way to the 2-3 round range in the same time frame? You have to take that into account when you evaluate our potential first round picks. Quinn is the only DE worth our #7 unless Bowers falls to us, but even then Quinn can do that "3rd or 4th thing" that Baalke talked about and drop into coverage, unlike Bowers.

To me in seems like a no contest that we need to take Quinn or trade back for Kerrigan, there don't seem to be any great DEs in the later rounds or even in free agency(lone exception to me is Ray Edwards). I know we need a CB but they played pretty damn well with all things considered and if we could get our hands on Aaron Williams, Brandon Burton, Jimmy Smith, Curtis Brown or Ras-I Dowling I would be just as stoked if we had drafted Amukamara. Then with the idea of drafting Miller, I dont want to have some unstoppable LB corp and a so front 3, remember we will probably not have Franklin around next year(based on the fact that we haven't given him an extension yet), and RJF isn't that great yet.

The best option for us is to is to draft a DE first, CB second, OLB 3rd, QB 4th.

Both Robert Quinn and Ryan Kerrigan would transition into OLB for us, they would be too small to play DE in our 3-4 system.
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
I don't think it's close....

Quinn>>>>>Miller

Why isn't it close???

There's a good amount of video on Quinn all over the internet (game video, not highlight compilations...real video--good plays and bad). The guy is just amazing. Size, speed, quickness, anticipation, play recognition, instincts, the power with which he tackles and hits people. He looks like Lawrence Taylor. This is in no way a nock on Miller (who I'm not a HUGE fan of due to his weak tackling...can he really bring down Big Ben or Steven Jackson???). Rather this is a reflection of my view of Quinn. No denying Miller's quickness and ability to get into the backfield. But Quinn, IMO, is a very very rare prospect.

Well the things you've listed Miller stacks up right next to Quinn:

Size - Well 6'2" 240 isn't that much smaller, James Harrison and Elvis Dumerville don't exactly have ideal size either.

Speed - No doubt Miller has that.

Quickness - No denying that one either.

Play recognition/anticipation - Miller has shown to recognize a screen and doesn't bite on play-action as easy. Hes also shown a variety moves to beat an O-lineman, inside or out.

Athleticism
- Miller is more than athletic enough to drop back into coverage or stand up in a 3-4, there's also no denying that one.

Power to beat tackles or shed blocks - If you've watched at least one game, you'd see he has the power to beat an OT around him, beat a Guard with an inside move. I think Miller's strength is very underrated, it might be due to the fact that hes mostly speed and doesn't have as big as size as you'd want in a DE. But no doubt he will over power and beat an O-lineman.

I don't get how you can say this kid tackles like hes playing two-hand touch, you don't win the Dick Butkus Award because you can't tackle. Can Miller bring down a Big Ben, I'd say so, he brought down Kaepernick and Ryan Mallet with ease, and both are just as big as Rothelisberger. In what little snaps hes shown in the Senior Bowl hes shown he can make plays, lets not forget he was named Defensive player of the game.

Close, its much closer than you think.

Size isn't everything, but to say Miller and Quinn have similar size is like saying DeSean Jackson and Andre Johnson have similar size. And Kaepernick and Big Ben are similar size? WHhhhhhhaaaaaatttttt?????? Big Ben is one of the strongest QBs to ever play the game, and is very difficult to bring down. Kaepernick has the smallest legs I've ever seen on a QB. Miller has things to like about him, but these size comparisons are preposterous.

I didn't say Quinn and Miller are the same size, I said Miller isn't that much smaller. And I didn't say, Kaepernick are similar in size, I said just as big, talk about putting word in mouth sheesh. No doubt Big Ben is probably the strongest QB in the NFL, but to really question if he Miller can bring down Big Ben is non sense, shoot, Robert Mathis 6'2" 235 sometimes has no trouble taking down Big Ben. Its about the angles and how off balance you are at the time when trying to bring Roethelisberger down, not just Miller, but pretty much every defender has a hard time bringing him down.

But to knock Miller for his size and suppose poor tackling (when in fact he has more tackles in his Jr. and Sr. year than Quinn does in his fresh and Soph years) is absurd. The two knocks on Miller for one, can be gained with proper nutrition, and two, can be coached. But I just don't know what you are looking at, when you knock him for his tackling, from every game I've seen of him he looks like a very sure tackler that wraps up before going for the big hit.

I just don't get the hype for Quinn, I'm not saying hes not any good, but one good year isn't enough to wow me. if anything, Ryan Kerrigan has been more consistent and productive than Quinn.

C'mon Kolohe - you can't compare their tackle numbers. One played DE exclusively while the other played OLB in 3-4.

Quinn didn't have just 1 good year - he had a pretty good 1st year as well. He missed couple of games and started the year slow (for obvious reasons - he was 18) but towards the end - he was averaging 5 tackles a game. For a DE - that's a pretty good number.

He put up 50+ tackles and 11 sacks and 2 FF in his year 2. Again, for a DE - 50+ tackles is amazing. Von Miller didn't cross 50 tackles till his senior year, and he is an OLB.

This is incorrect. In his freshman and sophomore year, Von Miller played DE exclusively. He did play some snaps in a couple games his sophomore year at OLB, but his primary position was DE. It wasn't until his junior season that he started playing a hybrid position, switching between End and OLB, but the majority of his sacks came while playing DE.
  • Kolohe
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  • Posts: 30,907
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
I don't think it's close....

Quinn>>>>>Miller

Why isn't it close???

There's a good amount of video on Quinn all over the internet (game video, not highlight compilations...real video--good plays and bad). The guy is just amazing. Size, speed, quickness, anticipation, play recognition, instincts, the power with which he tackles and hits people. He looks like Lawrence Taylor. This is in no way a nock on Miller (who I'm not a HUGE fan of due to his weak tackling...can he really bring down Big Ben or Steven Jackson???). Rather this is a reflection of my view of Quinn. No denying Miller's quickness and ability to get into the backfield. But Quinn, IMO, is a very very rare prospect.

Well the things you've listed Miller stacks up right next to Quinn:

Size - Well 6'2" 240 isn't that much smaller, James Harrison and Elvis Dumerville don't exactly have ideal size either.

Speed - No doubt Miller has that.

Quickness - No denying that one either.

Play recognition/anticipation - Miller has shown to recognize a screen and doesn't bite on play-action as easy. Hes also shown a variety moves to beat an O-lineman, inside or out.

Athleticism
- Miller is more than athletic enough to drop back into coverage or stand up in a 3-4, there's also no denying that one.

Power to beat tackles or shed blocks - If you've watched at least one game, you'd see he has the power to beat an OT around him, beat a Guard with an inside move. I think Miller's strength is very underrated, it might be due to the fact that hes mostly speed and doesn't have as big as size as you'd want in a DE. But no doubt he will over power and beat an O-lineman.

I don't get how you can say this kid tackles like hes playing two-hand touch, you don't win the Dick Butkus Award because you can't tackle. Can Miller bring down a Big Ben, I'd say so, he brought down Kaepernick and Ryan Mallet with ease, and both are just as big as Rothelisberger. In what little snaps hes shown in the Senior Bowl hes shown he can make plays, lets not forget he was named Defensive player of the game.

Close, its much closer than you think.

Size isn't everything, but to say Miller and Quinn have similar size is like saying DeSean Jackson and Andre Johnson have similar size. And Kaepernick and Big Ben are similar size? WHhhhhhhaaaaaatttttt?????? Big Ben is one of the strongest QBs to ever play the game, and is very difficult to bring down. Kaepernick has the smallest legs I've ever seen on a QB. Miller has things to like about him, but these size comparisons are preposterous.

I didn't say Quinn and Miller are the same size, I said Miller isn't that much smaller. And I didn't say, Kaepernick are similar in size, I said just as big, talk about putting word in mouth sheesh. No doubt Big Ben is probably the strongest QB in the NFL, but to really question if he Miller can bring down Big Ben is non sense, shoot, Robert Mathis 6'2" 235 sometimes has no trouble taking down Big Ben. Its about the angles and how off balance you are at the time when trying to bring Roethelisberger down, not just Miller, but pretty much every defender has a hard time bringing him down.

But to knock Miller for his size and suppose poor tackling (when in fact he has more tackles in his Jr. and Sr. year than Quinn does in his fresh and Soph years) is absurd. The two knocks on Miller for one, can be gained with proper nutrition, and two, can be coached. But I just don't know what you are looking at, when you knock him for his tackling, from every game I've seen of him he looks like a very sure tackler that wraps up before going for the big hit.

I just don't get the hype for Quinn, I'm not saying hes not any good, but one good year isn't enough to wow me. if anything, Ryan Kerrigan has been more consistent and productive than Quinn.

C'mon Kolohe - you can't compare their tackle numbers. One played DE exclusively while the other played OLB in 3-4.

Quinn didn't have just 1 good year - he had a pretty good 1st year as well. He missed couple of games and started the year slow (for obvious reasons - he was 18) but towards the end - he was averaging 5 tackles a game. For a DE - that's a pretty good number.

He put up 50+ tackles and 11 sacks and 2 FF in his year 2. Again, for a DE - 50+ tackles is amazing. Von Miller didn't cross 50 tackles till his senior year, and he is an OLB.

Not comparing who's better because one had more tackles, but simply pointing out that Miller can in fact be a sure tackler. Actually referring to his "Two hand touch" comment. Like I said, you don't win the Dick Butkus award for playing two-hand touch.
  • Kolohe
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 30,907
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
I don't think it's close....

Quinn>>>>>Miller

Why isn't it close???

There's a good amount of video on Quinn all over the internet (game video, not highlight compilations...real video--good plays and bad). The guy is just amazing. Size, speed, quickness, anticipation, play recognition, instincts, the power with which he tackles and hits people. He looks like Lawrence Taylor. This is in no way a nock on Miller (who I'm not a HUGE fan of due to his weak tackling...can he really bring down Big Ben or Steven Jackson???). Rather this is a reflection of my view of Quinn. No denying Miller's quickness and ability to get into the backfield. But Quinn, IMO, is a very very rare prospect.

Well the things you've listed Miller stacks up right next to Quinn:

Size - Well 6'2" 240 isn't that much smaller, James Harrison and Elvis Dumerville don't exactly have ideal size either.

Speed - No doubt Miller has that.

Quickness - No denying that one either.

Play recognition/anticipation - Miller has shown to recognize a screen and doesn't bite on play-action as easy. Hes also shown a variety moves to beat an O-lineman, inside or out.

Athleticism
- Miller is more than athletic enough to drop back into coverage or stand up in a 3-4, there's also no denying that one.

Power to beat tackles or shed blocks - If you've watched at least one game, you'd see he has the power to beat an OT around him, beat a Guard with an inside move. I think Miller's strength is very underrated, it might be due to the fact that hes mostly speed and doesn't have as big as size as you'd want in a DE. But no doubt he will over power and beat an O-lineman.

I don't get how you can say this kid tackles like hes playing two-hand touch, you don't win the Dick Butkus Award because you can't tackle. Can Miller bring down a Big Ben, I'd say so, he brought down Kaepernick and Ryan Mallet with ease, and both are just as big as Rothelisberger. In what little snaps hes shown in the Senior Bowl hes shown he can make plays, lets not forget he was named Defensive player of the game.

Close, its much closer than you think.

Size isn't everything, but to say Miller and Quinn have similar size is like saying DeSean Jackson and Andre Johnson have similar size. And Kaepernick and Big Ben are similar size? WHhhhhhhaaaaaatttttt?????? Big Ben is one of the strongest QBs to ever play the game, and is very difficult to bring down. Kaepernick has the smallest legs I've ever seen on a QB. Miller has things to like about him, but these size comparisons are preposterous.

I didn't say Quinn and Miller are the same size, I said Miller isn't that much smaller. And I didn't say, Kaepernick are similar in size, I said just as big, talk about putting word in mouth sheesh. No doubt Big Ben is probably the strongest QB in the NFL, but to really question if he Miller can bring down Big Ben is non sense, shoot, Robert Mathis 6'2" 235 sometimes has no trouble taking down Big Ben. Its about the angles and how off balance you are at the time when trying to bring Roethelisberger down, not just Miller, but pretty much every defender has a hard time bringing him down.

But to knock Miller for his size and suppose poor tackling (when in fact he has more tackles in his Jr. and Sr. year than Quinn does in his fresh and Soph years) is absurd. The two knocks on Miller for one, can be gained with proper nutrition, and two, can be coached. But I just don't know what you are looking at, when you knock him for his tackling, from every game I've seen of him he looks like a very sure tackler that wraps up before going for the big hit.

I just don't get the hype for Quinn, I'm not saying hes not any good, but one good year isn't enough to wow me. if anything, Ryan Kerrigan has been more consistent and productive than Quinn.

Just watch the guy play. When I talk about Miller's lack of tackling ability I'm talking about what I see, not only due to his size. He's not a wrap-up tackler. I don't know if it's a strength issue, an arm length issue, or just something else, but he doesn't always bring down the guy he gets to. Quinn on the other hand is such a devastating tackler. I just see a better player when I watch them.

Seriously question if you really watched Miller play, and the Senior Bowl should've given you a strong indication that he can in fact wrap up on tackles. Arm length?? Miller has a 34 inch wingspan, second to KJ Wright at the Senior Bowl and a much bigger wingspan than Ryan Kerrigan.



1st play - Late

2nd play - nice rip move

3rd play - driven out of the play

4th play - Bumped out causing him to be late on the play

5th play - walled off by Castonzo

6th play - Walled off by Castonzo

7th play - Inside move by Quinn, again walled off by Castonzo

8th play - A bit of a hold by Castonzo, but with rare strength he should've got off his block (sarcasm)

9th play - Stayed home and had a pass deflection

10th play - Nice penetration up the C-gap, forcing a quicker throw, good pressure

11th play - Walled off

12th play - Chipped and walled off

13th play - Driven outta the play

14th play - Pressure on the play, but QB still was cool and delivered a pass down field.

15th play - Driven outta the play on a double team

16th play - Got pressure on QB, and missed the sack, QB stayed calm delivered his pass that was later broken up

17th play - Driven outta the play, walledoff by Castonzo

18th play - Walled off by Castonzo, QB sacked, but not by Quinn, comes in after play was over

19th play - Good pressure while being double teamed, QB throws INT

Not the devastating tackler, or rare specimen in that film, looked pretty average if you asked my. At times slow off the snap, and unable to get off blocks. he did some good things, but nothing spectacular.
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
I don't think it's close....

Quinn>>>>>Miller

Why isn't it close???

There's a good amount of video on Quinn all over the internet (game video, not highlight compilations...real video--good plays and bad). The guy is just amazing. Size, speed, quickness, anticipation, play recognition, instincts, the power with which he tackles and hits people. He looks like Lawrence Taylor. This is in no way a nock on Miller (who I'm not a HUGE fan of due to his weak tackling...can he really bring down Big Ben or Steven Jackson???). Rather this is a reflection of my view of Quinn. No denying Miller's quickness and ability to get into the backfield. But Quinn, IMO, is a very very rare prospect.

Well the things you've listed Miller stacks up right next to Quinn:

Size - Well 6'2" 240 isn't that much smaller, James Harrison and Elvis Dumerville don't exactly have ideal size either.

Speed - No doubt Miller has that.

Quickness - No denying that one either.

Play recognition/anticipation - Miller has shown to recognize a screen and doesn't bite on play-action as easy. Hes also shown a variety moves to beat an O-lineman, inside or out.

Athleticism
- Miller is more than athletic enough to drop back into coverage or stand up in a 3-4, there's also no denying that one.

Power to beat tackles or shed blocks - If you've watched at least one game, you'd see he has the power to beat an OT around him, beat a Guard with an inside move. I think Miller's strength is very underrated, it might be due to the fact that hes mostly speed and doesn't have as big as size as you'd want in a DE. But no doubt he will over power and beat an O-lineman.

I don't get how you can say this kid tackles like hes playing two-hand touch, you don't win the Dick Butkus Award because you can't tackle. Can Miller bring down a Big Ben, I'd say so, he brought down Kaepernick and Ryan Mallet with ease, and both are just as big as Rothelisberger. In what little snaps hes shown in the Senior Bowl hes shown he can make plays, lets not forget he was named Defensive player of the game.

Close, its much closer than you think.

Size isn't everything, but to say Miller and Quinn have similar size is like saying DeSean Jackson and Andre Johnson have similar size. And Kaepernick and Big Ben are similar size? WHhhhhhhaaaaaatttttt?????? Big Ben is one of the strongest QBs to ever play the game, and is very difficult to bring down. Kaepernick has the smallest legs I've ever seen on a QB. Miller has things to like about him, but these size comparisons are preposterous.

I didn't say Quinn and Miller are the same size, I said Miller isn't that much smaller. And I didn't say, Kaepernick are similar in size, I said just as big, talk about putting word in mouth sheesh. No doubt Big Ben is probably the strongest QB in the NFL, but to really question if he Miller can bring down Big Ben is non sense, shoot, Robert Mathis 6'2" 235 sometimes has no trouble taking down Big Ben. Its about the angles and how off balance you are at the time when trying to bring Roethelisberger down, not just Miller, but pretty much every defender has a hard time bringing him down.

But to knock Miller for his size and suppose poor tackling (when in fact he has more tackles in his Jr. and Sr. year than Quinn does in his fresh and Soph years) is absurd. The two knocks on Miller for one, can be gained with proper nutrition, and two, can be coached. But I just don't know what you are looking at, when you knock him for his tackling, from every game I've seen of him he looks like a very sure tackler that wraps up before going for the big hit.

I just don't get the hype for Quinn, I'm not saying hes not any good, but one good year isn't enough to wow me. if anything, Ryan Kerrigan has been more consistent and productive than Quinn.

Just watch the guy play. When I talk about Miller's lack of tackling ability I'm talking about what I see, not only due to his size. He's not a wrap-up tackler. I don't know if it's a strength issue, an arm length issue, or just something else, but he doesn't always bring down the guy he gets to. Quinn on the other hand is such a devastating tackler. I just see a better player when I watch them.

Seriously question if you really watched Miller play, and the Senior Bowl should've given you a strong indication that he can in fact wrap up on tackles. Arm length?? Miller has a 34 inch wingspan, second to KJ Wright at the Senior Bowl and a much bigger wingspan than Ryan Kerrigan.



1st play - Late

2nd play - nice rip move

3rd play - driven out of the play

4th play - Bumped out causing him to be late on the play

5th play - walled off by Castonzo

6th play - Walled off by Castonzo

7th play - Inside move by Quinn, again walled off by Castonzo

8th play - A bit of a hold by Castonzo, but with rare strength he should've got off his block (sarcasm)

9th play - Stayed home and had a pass deflection

10th play - Nice penetration up the C-gap, forcing a quicker throw, good pressure

11th play - Walled off

12th play - Chipped and walled off

13th play - Driven outta the play

14th play - Pressure on the play, but QB still was cool and delivered a pass down field.

15th play - Driven outta the play on a double team

16th play - Got pressure on QB, and missed the sack, QB stayed calm delivered his pass that was later broken up

17th play - Driven outta the play, walledoff by Castonzo

18th play - Walled off by Castonzo, QB sacked, but not by Quinn, comes in after play was over

19th play - Good pressure while being double teamed, QB throws INT

Not the devastating tackler, or rare specimen in that film, looked pretty average if you asked my. At times slow off the snap, and unable to get off blocks. he did some good things, but nothing spectacular.

Not everyone will flash on every snap though, and Quinn was going against a top tackle in this year's draft in Castonzo.

When I look back to some of Von Miller's game that same season (junior season), he disappeared a lot in games against Oklahoma St., Oklahoma, and Baylor.
If I had one hesitation, it would be the number of misses (or lack of hits) on the DE/OLB position in the top ten spots over the years. There's only been a handful of guys who really developed into game-changers that were drafted that high over the last 20 years (Mario Williams, Julius Peppers, Terrell Suggs, Willie McGinest, Simeon Rice...that's about it). So the chances of us getting a keeper are not good.
  • Kolohe
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  • Posts: 30,907
Originally posted by SF69ers:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
I don't think it's close....

Quinn>>>>>Miller

Why isn't it close???

There's a good amount of video on Quinn all over the internet (game video, not highlight compilations...real video--good plays and bad). The guy is just amazing. Size, speed, quickness, anticipation, play recognition, instincts, the power with which he tackles and hits people. He looks like Lawrence Taylor. This is in no way a nock on Miller (who I'm not a HUGE fan of due to his weak tackling...can he really bring down Big Ben or Steven Jackson???). Rather this is a reflection of my view of Quinn. No denying Miller's quickness and ability to get into the backfield. But Quinn, IMO, is a very very rare prospect.

Well the things you've listed Miller stacks up right next to Quinn:

Size - Well 6'2" 240 isn't that much smaller, James Harrison and Elvis Dumerville don't exactly have ideal size either.

Speed - No doubt Miller has that.

Quickness - No denying that one either.

Play recognition/anticipation - Miller has shown to recognize a screen and doesn't bite on play-action as easy. Hes also shown a variety moves to beat an O-lineman, inside or out.

Athleticism
- Miller is more than athletic enough to drop back into coverage or stand up in a 3-4, there's also no denying that one.

Power to beat tackles or shed blocks - If you've watched at least one game, you'd see he has the power to beat an OT around him, beat a Guard with an inside move. I think Miller's strength is very underrated, it might be due to the fact that hes mostly speed and doesn't have as big as size as you'd want in a DE. But no doubt he will over power and beat an O-lineman.

I don't get how you can say this kid tackles like hes playing two-hand touch, you don't win the Dick Butkus Award because you can't tackle. Can Miller bring down a Big Ben, I'd say so, he brought down Kaepernick and Ryan Mallet with ease, and both are just as big as Rothelisberger. In what little snaps hes shown in the Senior Bowl hes shown he can make plays, lets not forget he was named Defensive player of the game.

Close, its much closer than you think.

Size isn't everything, but to say Miller and Quinn have similar size is like saying DeSean Jackson and Andre Johnson have similar size. And Kaepernick and Big Ben are similar size? WHhhhhhhaaaaaatttttt?????? Big Ben is one of the strongest QBs to ever play the game, and is very difficult to bring down. Kaepernick has the smallest legs I've ever seen on a QB. Miller has things to like about him, but these size comparisons are preposterous.

I didn't say Quinn and Miller are the same size, I said Miller isn't that much smaller. And I didn't say, Kaepernick are similar in size, I said just as big, talk about putting word in mouth sheesh. No doubt Big Ben is probably the strongest QB in the NFL, but to really question if he Miller can bring down Big Ben is non sense, shoot, Robert Mathis 6'2" 235 sometimes has no trouble taking down Big Ben. Its about the angles and how off balance you are at the time when trying to bring Roethelisberger down, not just Miller, but pretty much every defender has a hard time bringing him down.

But to knock Miller for his size and suppose poor tackling (when in fact he has more tackles in his Jr. and Sr. year than Quinn does in his fresh and Soph years) is absurd. The two knocks on Miller for one, can be gained with proper nutrition, and two, can be coached. But I just don't know what you are looking at, when you knock him for his tackling, from every game I've seen of him he looks like a very sure tackler that wraps up before going for the big hit.

I just don't get the hype for Quinn, I'm not saying hes not any good, but one good year isn't enough to wow me. if anything, Ryan Kerrigan has been more consistent and productive than Quinn.

Just watch the guy play. When I talk about Miller's lack of tackling ability I'm talking about what I see, not only due to his size. He's not a wrap-up tackler. I don't know if it's a strength issue, an arm length issue, or just something else, but he doesn't always bring down the guy he gets to. Quinn on the other hand is such a devastating tackler. I just see a better player when I watch them.

Seriously question if you really watched Miller play, and the Senior Bowl should've given you a strong indication that he can in fact wrap up on tackles. Arm length?? Miller has a 34 inch wingspan, second to KJ Wright at the Senior Bowl and a much bigger wingspan than Ryan Kerrigan.



1st play - Late

2nd play - nice rip move

3rd play - driven out of the play

4th play - Bumped out causing him to be late on the play

5th play - walled off by Castonzo

6th play - Walled off by Castonzo

7th play - Inside move by Quinn, again walled off by Castonzo

8th play - A bit of a hold by Castonzo, but with rare strength he should've got off his block (sarcasm)

9th play - Stayed home and had a pass deflection

10th play - Nice penetration up the C-gap, forcing a quicker throw, good pressure

11th play - Walled off

12th play - Chipped and walled off

13th play - Driven outta the play

14th play - Pressure on the play, but QB still was cool and delivered a pass down field.

15th play - Driven outta the play on a double team

16th play - Got pressure on QB, and missed the sack, QB stayed calm delivered his pass that was later broken up

17th play - Driven outta the play, walledoff by Castonzo

18th play - Walled off by Castonzo, QB sacked, but not by Quinn, comes in after play was over

19th play - Good pressure while being double teamed, QB throws INT

Not the devastating tackler, or rare specimen in that film, looked pretty average if you asked my. At times slow off the snap, and unable to get off blocks. he did some good things, but nothing spectacular.

Not everyone will flash on every snap though, and Quinn was going against a top tackle in this year's draft in Castonzo.

When I look back to some of Von Miller's game that same season (junior season), he disappeared a lot in games against Oklahoma St., Oklahoma, and Baylor.

I agree, about Miller he has often disappeared at times in games, but I'm not claiming Miller is a very rare prospect. My analysis up above was just to show, that Quinn is not all hyped to be and has looked very average. If you wanted to talk about rare prospects, Vernon Davis' should be mentioned, as his blend of size and speed are in rare forms. IMO, Miller his much quicker off the snap than Quinn is, at times Quinn is late to get a jump on the snap.
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by SF69ers:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
I don't think it's close....

Quinn>>>>>Miller

Why isn't it close???

There's a good amount of video on Quinn all over the internet (game video, not highlight compilations...real video--good plays and bad). The guy is just amazing. Size, speed, quickness, anticipation, play recognition, instincts, the power with which he tackles and hits people. He looks like Lawrence Taylor. This is in no way a nock on Miller (who I'm not a HUGE fan of due to his weak tackling...can he really bring down Big Ben or Steven Jackson???). Rather this is a reflection of my view of Quinn. No denying Miller's quickness and ability to get into the backfield. But Quinn, IMO, is a very very rare prospect.

Well the things you've listed Miller stacks up right next to Quinn:

Size - Well 6'2" 240 isn't that much smaller, James Harrison and Elvis Dumerville don't exactly have ideal size either.

Speed - No doubt Miller has that.

Quickness - No denying that one either.

Play recognition/anticipation - Miller has shown to recognize a screen and doesn't bite on play-action as easy. Hes also shown a variety moves to beat an O-lineman, inside or out.

Athleticism
- Miller is more than athletic enough to drop back into coverage or stand up in a 3-4, there's also no denying that one.

Power to beat tackles or shed blocks - If you've watched at least one game, you'd see he has the power to beat an OT around him, beat a Guard with an inside move. I think Miller's strength is very underrated, it might be due to the fact that hes mostly speed and doesn't have as big as size as you'd want in a DE. But no doubt he will over power and beat an O-lineman.

I don't get how you can say this kid tackles like hes playing two-hand touch, you don't win the Dick Butkus Award because you can't tackle. Can Miller bring down a Big Ben, I'd say so, he brought down Kaepernick and Ryan Mallet with ease, and both are just as big as Rothelisberger. In what little snaps hes shown in the Senior Bowl hes shown he can make plays, lets not forget he was named Defensive player of the game.

Close, its much closer than you think.

Size isn't everything, but to say Miller and Quinn have similar size is like saying DeSean Jackson and Andre Johnson have similar size. And Kaepernick and Big Ben are similar size? WHhhhhhhaaaaaatttttt?????? Big Ben is one of the strongest QBs to ever play the game, and is very difficult to bring down. Kaepernick has the smallest legs I've ever seen on a QB. Miller has things to like about him, but these size comparisons are preposterous.

I didn't say Quinn and Miller are the same size, I said Miller isn't that much smaller. And I didn't say, Kaepernick are similar in size, I said just as big, talk about putting word in mouth sheesh. No doubt Big Ben is probably the strongest QB in the NFL, but to really question if he Miller can bring down Big Ben is non sense, shoot, Robert Mathis 6'2" 235 sometimes has no trouble taking down Big Ben. Its about the angles and how off balance you are at the time when trying to bring Roethelisberger down, not just Miller, but pretty much every defender has a hard time bringing him down.

But to knock Miller for his size and suppose poor tackling (when in fact he has more tackles in his Jr. and Sr. year than Quinn does in his fresh and Soph years) is absurd. The two knocks on Miller for one, can be gained with proper nutrition, and two, can be coached. But I just don't know what you are looking at, when you knock him for his tackling, from every game I've seen of him he looks like a very sure tackler that wraps up before going for the big hit.

I just don't get the hype for Quinn, I'm not saying hes not any good, but one good year isn't enough to wow me. if anything, Ryan Kerrigan has been more consistent and productive than Quinn.

Just watch the guy play. When I talk about Miller's lack of tackling ability I'm talking about what I see, not only due to his size. He's not a wrap-up tackler. I don't know if it's a strength issue, an arm length issue, or just something else, but he doesn't always bring down the guy he gets to. Quinn on the other hand is such a devastating tackler. I just see a better player when I watch them.

Seriously question if you really watched Miller play, and the Senior Bowl should've given you a strong indication that he can in fact wrap up on tackles. Arm length?? Miller has a 34 inch wingspan, second to KJ Wright at the Senior Bowl and a much bigger wingspan than Ryan Kerrigan.



1st play - Late

2nd play - nice rip move

3rd play - driven out of the play

4th play - Bumped out causing him to be late on the play

5th play - walled off by Castonzo

6th play - Walled off by Castonzo

7th play - Inside move by Quinn, again walled off by Castonzo

8th play - A bit of a hold by Castonzo, but with rare strength he should've got off his block (sarcasm)

9th play - Stayed home and had a pass deflection

10th play - Nice penetration up the C-gap, forcing a quicker throw, good pressure

11th play - Walled off

12th play - Chipped and walled off

13th play - Driven outta the play

14th play - Pressure on the play, but QB still was cool and delivered a pass down field.

15th play - Driven outta the play on a double team

16th play - Got pressure on QB, and missed the sack, QB stayed calm delivered his pass that was later broken up

17th play - Driven outta the play, walledoff by Castonzo

18th play - Walled off by Castonzo, QB sacked, but not by Quinn, comes in after play was over

19th play - Good pressure while being double teamed, QB throws INT

Not the devastating tackler, or rare specimen in that film, looked pretty average if you asked my. At times slow off the snap, and unable to get off blocks. he did some good things, but nothing spectacular.

Not everyone will flash on every snap though, and Quinn was going against a top tackle in this year's draft in Castonzo.

When I look back to some of Von Miller's game that same season (junior season), he disappeared a lot in games against Oklahoma St., Oklahoma, and Baylor.

I agree, about Miller he has often disappeared at times in games, but I'm not claiming Miller is a very rare prospect. My analysis up above was just to show, that Quinn is not all hyped to be and has looked very average. If you wanted to talk about rare prospects, Vernon Davis' should be mentioned, as his blend of size and speed are in rare forms. IMO, Miller his much quicker off the snap than Quinn is, at times Quinn is late to get a jump on the snap.

I actually didn't watch much on Quinn back in the 2009 season, but you're right about him being a bit slow off the snap. It makes me flip flop between him and Kerrigan being our selection.
Sporting News on Quinn: "Pass rush: Is the area where Quinn shines and makes him such an ideal candidate to play outside linebacker in a 3-4 scheme. Is usually explosive off the ball and combined with his quick acceleration and speed he is able to beat the offensive tackle around the corner and once he gets the corner he has an explosive closing burst to the QB."

Indicates that he is not slow off the snap.

Edit: on Von Miller: "Is an elite pass rusher who can change games with his ability to defeat blocks and consistently pressure the QB." So, I'd be happy with either!

[ Edited by dtg_9er on Feb 4, 2011 at 20:12:16 ]
I want neither... Cam Jordan FOR THE WIN!!!! he's the best End in this and is a 3-4 one at that!!!
Size, Check no doubt he lives up to it unlike the other 2...
First step, Check
Talent Watch against usc and he's being double teamed all game, and winning... Against a top tackle..
Speed, Power... Got both and he's not a small 240 pound guy...
Tackle.. Yes better then either of the 2 guys in this thread.
System... 3-4 end...
Last Name, unlike most players who fallow their fathers footsteps and never amount to anything.... Kids got the talent to do just that, be a first rounder and a future probowler learning from justin smith!!!
Originally posted by TheGoldDiggerrrr:
I want neither... Cam Jordan FOR THE WIN!!!! he's the best End in this and is a 3-4 one at that!!!
Size, Check no doubt he lives up to it unlike the other 2...
First step, Check
Talent Watch against usc and he's being double teamed all game, and winning... Against a top tackle..
Speed, Power... Got both and he's not a small 240 pound guy...
Tackle.. Yes better then either of the 2 guys in this thread.
System... 3-4 end...
Last Name, unlike most players who fallow their fathers footsteps and never amount to anything.... Kids got the talent to do just that, be a first rounder and a future probowler learning from justin smith!!!

Tyron Smith actually handed him his lunch against SC...
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
If I had one hesitation, it would be the number of misses (or lack of hits) on the DE/OLB position in the top ten spots over the years. There's only been a handful of guys who really developed into game-changers that were drafted that high over the last 20 years (Mario Williams, Julius Peppers, Terrell Suggs, Willie McGinest, Simeon Rice...that's about it). So the chances of us getting a keeper are not good.

That's like saying ILB drafted in the top 10 haven't been all that great. Yet when you look further down the draft there have been some terrific players - Willis, Beason, Harris and even Ray Lewis way back when.

Shawne Merriman, Demarcus Ware, Clay Matthews did pretty well. Obviously some of these guys playing great went in the draft at some point which means if you evaluate the proper guy you can get him with a top 10 pick.

Just need proper evaluation and scouting.
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
If I had one hesitation, it would be the number of misses (or lack of hits) on the DE/OLB position in the top ten spots over the years. There's only been a handful of guys who really developed into game-changers that were drafted that high over the last 20 years (Mario Williams, Julius Peppers, Terrell Suggs, Willie McGinest, Simeon Rice...that's about it). So the chances of us getting a keeper are not good.

That's like saying ILB drafted in the top 10 haven't been all that great. Yet when you look further down the draft there have been some terrific players - Willis, Beason, Harris and even Ray Lewis way back when.

Shawne Merriman, Demarcus Ware, Clay Matthews did pretty well. Obviously some of these guys playing great went in the draft at some point which means if you evaluate the proper guy you can get him with a top 10 pick.

Just need proper evaluation and scouting.

That was my point. Conventional wisdom on who the top-10 players are, can often be lacking in wisdom. Those guys might have the best measureables (guady stats/height/weight/size/speed numbers), but that doesn't always (or automatically) make them the best football players. Often, the best football players don't have the top measureables....they're maybe a notch below those other guys, which can cause them to slip just outside of the top-10.

If your decision-makers are easily persuaded by measureables (which many are), the chances are high that you will wind up with a top-10 bust, as history has shown.
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
If I had one hesitation, it would be the number of misses (or lack of hits) on the DE/OLB position in the top ten spots over the years. There's only been a handful of guys who really developed into game-changers that were drafted that high over the last 20 years (Mario Williams, Julius Peppers, Terrell Suggs, Willie McGinest, Simeon Rice...that's about it). So the chances of us getting a keeper are not good.

That's like saying ILB drafted in the top 10 haven't been all that great. Yet when you look further down the draft there have been some terrific players - Willis, Beason, Harris and even Ray Lewis way back when.

Shawne Merriman, Demarcus Ware, Clay Matthews did pretty well. Obviously some of these guys playing great went in the draft at some point which means if you evaluate the proper guy you can get him with a top 10 pick.

And that is just one of many variables which make the draft a crapshoot. It's also what upsets me with these talking heads speaking with such certitude.

Just need proper evaluation and scouting.

That was my point. Conventional wisdom on who the top-10 players are, can often be lacking in wisdom. Those guys might have the best measureables (guady stats/height/weight/size/speed numbers), but that doesn't always (or automatically) make them the best football players. Often, the best football players don't have the top measureables....they're maybe a notch below those other guys, which can cause them to slip just outside of the top-10.

If your decision-makers are easily persuaded by measureables (which many are), the chances are high that you will wind up with a top-10 bust, as history has shown.
Von Miller's only knock is his weight and that can be addressed I don't see that a problem imo you can't teach speed which he has.
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