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This is hard to look at;

Originally posted by wadjay:
Originally posted by Sinsation:
Patriots Drafts

2009
2a Pat Chung 34 SS Oregon
2b Ron Brace 40 DT Boston College
2c Darius Butler 41 CB Connecticut
2d Sebastian Vollmer 58 OL Houston
3a Brandon Tate 83 WR North Carolina
3b Tyrone McKenzie 97 LB South Florida
4 Rich Ohrnberger 123 OL Penn State
5 George Bussey 170 OL Louisville
6a Jake Ingram 198 LS Hawaii
6b Myron Pryor 207 DT Kentucky
7a Julian Edelman 232 WR Kent State
7b Darryl Richard 234 DT Georgia Tech


2008
1 Jerod Mayo 10 LB Tennessee
2 Terrence Wheatley 62 CB Colorado
3 Shawn Crable 78 LB Michigan
3 Kevin O'Connell 94 QB San Diego State
4 Jonathan Wilhite 129 CB Auburn
5 Matthew Slater 153 WR UCLA
6 Bo Ruud 197 LB Nebraska

2007
1 Brandon Meriweather 24 S Miami (Fla.)
4 Kareem Brown 127 DL Miami (Fla.)
5 Clint Oldenburg 171 T Colorado State Compensatory Pick.
6a Justin Rogers 180 LB Southern Methodist
6b Mike Richardson 202 CB Notre Dame
6c Justise Hairston 208 RB Central Connecticut Compensatory Pick.
6d Corey Hilliard 208 T Oklahoma State Compensatory Pick.
7 Oscar Lua 211 LB Southern California
7 Mike Elgin 247 G/C Iowa Compensatory Pick.

2006
1 Laurence Maroney 21 RB Minnesota
2 Chad Jackson 36 WR Florida
3 David Thomas 86 TE Texas
4a Garrett Mills 106 FB Tulsa
4b Stephen Gostkowski 118 K Memphis
5a Ryan O'Callaghan 136 T California
6a Jeremy Mincey 191 LB Florida
6b Dan Stevenson 205 G Notre Dame
6c Le Kevin Smith 206 DL Nebraska
7 Willie Andrews 229 DB Baylor

2005

1 Logan Mankins 32 G Fresno State

3a Ellis Hobbs III 84 CB Iowa State
3b Nick Kaczur 100 T Toledo
4 James Sanders 133 S Fresno State
5 Ryan Claridge 170 OLB Nevada-Las Vegas
7a Matt Cassel 230 QB
7b Andy Stokes 255 TE William Penn

Perfect response!

How many of those players that the Pats drafted would be starters for us? Chad Jackson would have been our number one WR for years. They can afford to miss on players (even in the 1st round) after building a dynasty, we are no longer (been over 7 years) a dynasty so we can't!
It is so obvious what this thread was opened for : Pure provocation.

Nobody who is not biased or plans to provoke other people would make such a post
Originally posted by Karma:
With all due respect, calling most of those players busts is just stupid. The 49ers, just like every other team not owned by Al Davis, puts thousands of hours into scouting players and then uses that information to draft players according to athletic potential and specific personnel needs. Sometimes a player selected lives up to or surpasses that potential; sometimes a player selected underachieves for a multitude of reasons. Your personal reasoning is that if a player doesn't make the pro-bowl, they are a bust. This is frustratingly unrealistic. Yes, we can all agree that Patrick Willis, Vernon Davis, and Frank Gore were great selections. We can add Joe Staley and Josh Morgan to the list of good picks because they have either been cosistent or played better than their draft selection. But there are quite a few players that you labeled "busts" that play well and contribute to the teams past successes and (hopefully) future contention.

Manny Lawson: Lead the team in sacks, excels in pass coverage, and was a huge factor in this team's success against the run
Parys Haralson: No, he is not Lawrence Taylor, but he plays with a trmendous motor and is, at the very least, a decently consistent pass rusher.
Ray McDonald: He is one of the few DEs on this team with legitimate pass rush skills. He is probably better suited for the 4-3, or at least his numbers would be better, but he does a fantastic job in the DL rotation.
Delanie Walker: As a 6th round back-up TE, he was an excellent pick. True, he has not been as much of a factor in the passing game as we had hoped, but he requires more attention from opposing defenses than just about any other back-up TE in the league. I also have a feeling he will have a career year next year now that we have some continuity at OC.
Michael Robinson: No, he is not a great RB, but he is great at picking up the blitz in the backfield, he is a decent receiver, and a special teams all-star. He is one of the best players in the league at 1/3rd of the game (ST). Can we please stop calling for him to be cut?
Billy Bajema: Yes, he is not with the team anymore, but he provided above average blocking for 4 years. As a 7th round pick, that makes him a good selection.
Chilo Rachal: Yes, his play has been spotty, but we saw him improve through the second half of last year. He is poised to take a big step this year.
Dashon Goldson: Started slowly, but the player we saw at the end of the year will only get better with experience under his belt. This kid is going to be, at the least, a very solid starter for years to come, whether he is at FS or SS.
Tarell Brown: He had a rough year, but he showed that he can be a very good CB with more consistency. Not bad for the 5th round.
Glen Coffee: No, he was not Ladanian Tomlinson in his rookie year, but that's not why we drafted him. He runs hard and picks-up the blitz exceptionally well. He will become a better runner with the ball, but you have to remember that he got most of his carries when the entire offense was sputtering. Other teams knew that all we were going to do was run, so he was running into 8,9, and even 10 man boxes. Once Alex Smith stepped in and opened up the opposition's defense, he wasn't getting many carries.

Then you astutely called players that haven't gotten the chance to play much as busts: Nate Davis, Scott McKillop, Curtis Taylor, Ricky Jean-Francois, and even Reggie Smith.

This team is headed in the right direction, and a major reason is that we have drafted reasonably well. Now THAT is not hard to look at.

God, some common sense. How did you get on here?
Originally posted by dbdublin:
Originally posted by Karma:
With all due respect, calling most of those players busts is just stupid. The 49ers, just like every other team not owned by Al Davis, puts thousands of hours into scouting players and then uses that information to draft players according to athletic potential and specific personnel needs. Sometimes a player selected lives up to or surpasses that potential; sometimes a player selected underachieves for a multitude of reasons. Your personal reasoning is that if a player doesn't make the pro-bowl, they are a bust. This is frustratingly unrealistic. Yes, we can all agree that Patrick Willis, Vernon Davis, and Frank Gore were great selections. We can add Joe Staley and Josh Morgan to the list of good picks because they have either been cosistent or played better than their draft selection. But there are quite a few players that you labeled "busts" that play well and contribute to the teams past successes and (hopefully) future contention.

Manny Lawson: Lead the team in sacks, excels in pass coverage, and was a huge factor in this team's success against the run
Parys Haralson: No, he is not Lawrence Taylor, but he plays with a trmendous motor and is, at the very least, a decently consistent pass rusher.
Ray McDonald: He is one of the few DEs on this team with legitimate pass rush skills. He is probably better suited for the 4-3, or at least his numbers would be better, but he does a fantastic job in the DL rotation.
Delanie Walker: As a 6th round back-up TE, he was an excellent pick. True, he has not been as much of a factor in the passing game as we had hoped, but he requires more attention from opposing defenses than just about any other back-up TE in the league. I also have a feeling he will have a career year next year now that we have some continuity at OC.
Michael Robinson: No, he is not a great RB, but he is great at picking up the blitz in the backfield, he is a decent receiver, and a special teams all-star. He is one of the best players in the league at 1/3rd of the game (ST). Can we please stop calling for him to be cut?
Billy Bajema: Yes, he is not with the team anymore, but he provided above average blocking for 4 years. As a 7th round pick, that makes him a good selection.
Chilo Rachal: Yes, his play has been spotty, but we saw him improve through the second half of last year. He is poised to take a big step this year.
Dashon Goldson: Started slowly, but the player we saw at the end of the year will only get better with experience under his belt. This kid is going to be, at the least, a very solid starter for years to come, whether he is at FS or SS.
Tarell Brown: He had a rough year, but he showed that he can be a very good CB with more consistency. Not bad for the 5th round.
Glen Coffee: No, he was not Ladanian Tomlinson in his rookie year, but that's not why we drafted him. He runs hard and picks-up the blitz exceptionally well. He will become a better runner with the ball, but you have to remember that he got most of his carries when the entire offense was sputtering. Other teams knew that all we were going to do was run, so he was running into 8,9, and even 10 man boxes. Once Alex Smith stepped in and opened up the opposition's defense, he wasn't getting many carries.

Then you astutely called players that haven't gotten the chance to play much as busts: Nate Davis, Scott McKillop, Curtis Taylor, Ricky Jean-Francois, and even Reggie Smith.

This team is headed in the right direction, and a major reason is that we have drafted reasonably well. Now THAT is not hard to look at.

God, some common sense. How did you get on here?

LOL
  • Karma
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 753
Originally posted by dbdublin:
Originally posted by Karma:
With all due respect, calling most of those players busts is just stupid. The 49ers, just like every other team not owned by Al Davis, puts thousands of hours into scouting players and then uses that information to draft players according to athletic potential and specific personnel needs. Sometimes a player selected lives up to or surpasses that potential; sometimes a player selected underachieves for a multitude of reasons. Your personal reasoning is that if a player doesn't make the pro-bowl, they are a bust. This is frustratingly unrealistic. Yes, we can all agree that Patrick Willis, Vernon Davis, and Frank Gore were great selections. We can add Joe Staley and Josh Morgan to the list of good picks because they have either been cosistent or played better than their draft selection. But there are quite a few players that you labeled "busts" that play well and contribute to the teams past successes and (hopefully) future contention.

Manny Lawson: Lead the team in sacks, excels in pass coverage, and was a huge factor in this team's success against the run
Parys Haralson: No, he is not Lawrence Taylor, but he plays with a trmendous motor and is, at the very least, a decently consistent pass rusher.
Ray McDonald: He is one of the few DEs on this team with legitimate pass rush skills. He is probably better suited for the 4-3, or at least his numbers would be better, but he does a fantastic job in the DL rotation.
Delanie Walker: As a 6th round back-up TE, he was an excellent pick. True, he has not been as much of a factor in the passing game as we had hoped, but he requires more attention from opposing defenses than just about any other back-up TE in the league. I also have a feeling he will have a career year next year now that we have some continuity at OC.
Michael Robinson: No, he is not a great RB, but he is great at picking up the blitz in the backfield, he is a decent receiver, and a special teams all-star. He is one of the best players in the league at 1/3rd of the game (ST). Can we please stop calling for him to be cut?
Billy Bajema: Yes, he is not with the team anymore, but he provided above average blocking for 4 years. As a 7th round pick, that makes him a good selection.
Chilo Rachal: Yes, his play has been spotty, but we saw him improve through the second half of last year. He is poised to take a big step this year.
Dashon Goldson: Started slowly, but the player we saw at the end of the year will only get better with experience under his belt. This kid is going to be, at the least, a very solid starter for years to come, whether he is at FS or SS.
Tarell Brown: He had a rough year, but he showed that he can be a very good CB with more consistency. Not bad for the 5th round.
Glen Coffee: No, he was not Ladanian Tomlinson in his rookie year, but that's not why we drafted him. He runs hard and picks-up the blitz exceptionally well. He will become a better runner with the ball, but you have to remember that he got most of his carries when the entire offense was sputtering. Other teams knew that all we were going to do was run, so he was running into 8,9, and even 10 man boxes. Once Alex Smith stepped in and opened up the opposition's defense, he wasn't getting many carries.

Then you astutely called players that haven't gotten the chance to play much as busts: Nate Davis, Scott McKillop, Curtis Taylor, Ricky Jean-Francois, and even Reggie Smith.

This team is headed in the right direction, and a major reason is that we have drafted reasonably well. Now THAT is not hard to look at.

God, some common sense. How did you get on here?

Originally posted by glorydayz:
exceptional non-bust players in bold:

Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 10 Michael Crabtree WR Texas Tech
3 74 Glen Coffee RB Alabama
5 146 Scott McKillop LB Pittsburgh
5 171 Nate Davis QB Ball State
6 184 Bear Pascoe TE Fresno State
7 219 Curtis Taylor DB Louisiana State
7 244 Ricky Jean-Francois DT Louisiana State
2008 - San Francisco 49ers

Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 29 Kentwan Balmer DE North Carolina
2 39 Chilo Rachal G USC
3 75 Reggie Smith DB Oklahoma
4 107 Cody Wallace C Texas A&M
6 174 Josh Morgan WR Virginia Tech
7 214 Larry Grant OLB Ohio State

2007 - San Francisco 49ers
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 11 Patrick Willis ILB Mississippi
1 28 Joe Staley OT Central Michigan
3 76 Jason Hill WR Washington State
3 97 Ray McDonald DE Florida
4 104 Jay Moore LB Nebraska
4 126 Dashon Goldson SAF Washington
4 135 Joe Cohen DT Florida
5 147 Tarell Brown CB Texas
6 186 Thomas Clayton RB Kansas State

2006 - San Francisco 49ers
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 6 Vernon Davis TE Maryland
1 22 Manny Lawson OLB North Carolina State
3 84 Brandon Williams WR Wisconsin
4 100 Michael Robinson RB Penn State
5 140 Parys Haralson DE Tennessee
6 175 Delanie Walker TE Central Missouri State
6 192 Marcus Hudson DB North Carolina State
6 197 Melvin Oliver DE Louisiana State
7 254 Vickiel Vaughn DB Arkansas

2005 - San Francisco 49ers
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 1 Alex Smith QB Utah
2 33 David Baas G Michigan
3 65 Frank Gore RB Miami (Fla.)
3 94 Adam Snyder T Oregon
5 137 Ronald Fields DT Mississippi State
5 174 Rasheed Marshall WR West Virginia
6 205 Derrick Johnson CB Washington
7 215 Daven Holly DB Cincinnati
7 223 Marcus Maxwell WR Oregon
7 248 Patrick Estes T Virginia
7 249 Billy Bajema TE Oklahoma State

how are Manny Lawson, Alex Smith, Parys Haralson, Delanie Walker, Michael Robinson, Dashon Goldson, Tarell Brown, Jason Hill, and Ray McDonald not "exceptional non-bust" players??

Lawson and Haralson were top 10 and top 15 3-4 OLB's this year.

Alex Smith put up numbers that ranked him as a mid level QB in only 10 games.

Dashon Goldson, Tarell Brown, and Ray McDonald are 3 solid defensive players who are improving.

Delanie Walker could START for some teams at TE. Jason Hill has showed promise when hes gotten a chance to play, and Michael Robinson is a exceptional ST player and team captain.

plus the 2008 and 2009 draft classes shouldnt be judged yet. if you wrote off every player who didnt become a playmaker until their 3rd season+, youd have to empty out most of the HOF. have some patience.
  • smileyman
  • Info N/A
Originally posted by glorydayz:
exceptional non-bust players in bold:

Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 10 Michael Crabtree WR Texas Tech
3 74 Glen Coffee RB Alabama
5 146 Scott McKillop LB Pittsburgh
5 171 Nate Davis QB Ball State
6 184 Bear Pascoe TE Fresno State
7 219 Curtis Taylor DB Louisiana State
7 244 Ricky Jean-Francois DT Louisiana State
2008 - San Francisco 49ers

McKillop came in and played well in relief. Curtis Taylor was a starter on special teams. Glen Coffee was the 2nd RB and though he didn't have a great year he showed improvement game to game when he had a chance to start. So by my count that's 4 non-busts out 7 picks, with two of the players yet to be determined (Nate Davis and Ricky Jean-Francois).

Quote:

Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 29 Kentwan Balmer DE North Carolina
2 39 Chilo Rachal G USC
3 75 Reggie Smith DB Oklahoma
4 107 Cody Wallace C Texas A&M
6 174 Josh Morgan WR Virginia Tech
7 214 Larry Grant OLB Ohio State

It normally takes a DE 2-3 years to come into the league and start. Rachal is far from a bust--he showed dramatic improvement the last half of the season. Smith has been injured so who knows what he's capable of. Wallace has been on the ps. Larry Grant is a backup on the Rams so he's not a bust. That's 3 out of 6, or 4 out of 6 if we give allowances for Smith being injured.

Quote:

2007 - San Francisco 49ers
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 11 Patrick Willis ILB Mississippi
1 28 Joe Staley OT Central Michigan
3 76 Jason Hill WR Washington State
3 97 Ray McDonald DE Florida
4 104 Jay Moore LB Nebraska
4 126 Dashon Goldson SAF Washington
4 135 Joe Cohen DT Florida
5 147 Tarell Brown CB Texas
6 186 Thomas Clayton RB Kansas State

Goldson sure isn't a bust. Tarrell Brown is a pretty good CB who started several games for us. McDonald is a solid backup so I don't know how that's a bust. So that's 4 out of 9. If you want to count Hill as a solid backup (which I do), that makes 5 out of 9.

Quote:

2006 - San Francisco 49ers
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 6 Vernon Davis TE Maryland
1 22 Manny Lawson OLB North Carolina State
3 84 Brandon Williams WR Wisconsin
4 100 Michael Robinson RB Penn State
5 140 Parys Haralson DE Tennessee
6 175 Delanie Walker TE Central Missouri State
6 192 Marcus Hudson DB North Carolina State
6 197 Melvin Oliver DE Louisiana State
7 254 Vickiel Vaughn DB Arkansas

Lawson is absolutely not a bust. Michael Robinson is a special teams starter. Haralson isn't a bust. Walker isn't a bust. Hudson comes in on nickle and dime packages so I don't know how you can call him a bust (especially since he was a 6th round selection). That's 6 out of 9 that aren't busts.

Quote:

2005 - San Francisco 49ers
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 1 Alex Smith QB Utah
2 33 David Baas G Michigan
3 65 Frank Gore RB Miami (Fla.)
3 94 Adam Snyder T Oregon
5 137 Ronald Fields DT Mississippi State
5 174 Rasheed Marshall WR West Virginia
6 205 Derrick Johnson CB Washington
7 215 Daven Holly DB Cincinnati
7 223 Marcus Maxwell WR Oregon
7 248 Patrick Estes T Virginia
7 249 Billy Bajema TE Oklahoma State

Alex Smith isn't a bust. Baas isn't a bust (he's serviceable at the very least). Derrick Johnson is a backup for KC--not a bust. Ronald Fields is a starter for Denver--not a bust. Bajema is a backup in St. Louis--not a bust. That's 5 out of 11 and when you consider that 7 of those 11 picks were 5th-7th rounders that's pretty successful in my book.


So 25 out of 42 picks are solid players. Not bad at all in my opinion. If you're trying to make a statement about the lousiness of McCloughan's drafts you need to also compare his drafts to other teams and see how they stack up.
Originally posted by glorydayz:


Alex Smith isn't a bust. Baas isn't a bust (he's serviceable at the very least). Derrick Johnson is a backup for KC--not a bust. Ronald Fields is a starter for Denver--not a bust. Bajema is a backup in St. Louis--not a bust. That's 5 out of 11 and when you consider that 7 of those 11 picks were 5th-7th rounders that's pretty successful in my book.


So 25 out of 42 picks are solid players. Not bad at all in my opinion. If you're trying to make a statement about the lousiness of McCloughan's drafts you need to also compare his drafts to other teams and see how they stack up.

well....i think Baas probably is a bust. a top 40 guard, maybe the most touted in his draft class, and 5 years later, hes still getting beat like a drum by opposing D-Lineman.
[ Edited by Niners99 on Feb 10, 2010 at 11:45 PM ]
  • smileyman
  • Info N/A
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by glorydayz:


Alex Smith isn't a bust. Baas isn't a bust (he's serviceable at the very least). Derrick Johnson is a backup for KC--not a bust. Ronald Fields is a starter for Denver--not a bust. Bajema is a backup in St. Louis--not a bust. That's 5 out of 11 and when you consider that 7 of those 11 picks were 5th-7th rounders that's pretty successful in my book.


So 25 out of 42 picks are solid players. Not bad at all in my opinion. If you're trying to make a statement about the lousiness of McCloughan's drafts you need to also compare his drafts to other teams and see how they stack up.

well....i think Baas probably is a bust. a top 40 guard, maybe the most touted in his draft class, and 5 years later, hes still getting beat like a drum by opposing D-Lineman.

Depends on what you call a bust. He's a serviceable starter (though he'd be better as a backup). He wasn't a 1st round pick. If he'd never started a game I'd call him a bust. If we were paying him millions of dollars as a backup I'd call him a bust. A solid backup/starter is not a bust in my book.