Houston Astros stole signs throughout their 2017 championship season.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
It's not a reading comprehension issue 99.

You dont think the title should be taken away. Neither do Astros fans or the commissioner. Everyone else does.

You think taking a title away would be a bigger stain to the sport than letting an illegitimate title stand. Everyone but the commissioner and Astros fans disagree.

Your opinion is well documented. We understand. We just disagree. And the overwhelming majority of MLB players feel the same way as us.

This.

99s comments on taking the title away being a bigger black eye on the sport is just not true. this is as bad as it can get. they allowed cheaters to win a title. it would be different if players said it's fine, but all of them feel the same way.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

It's not a reading comprehension issue 99.

You dont think the title should be taken away. Neither do Astros fans or the commissioner. Everyone else does.

You think taking a title away would be a bigger stain to the sport than letting an illegitimate title stand. Everyone but the commissioner and Astros fans disagree.

Your opinion is well documented. We understand. We just disagree. And the overwhelming majority of MLB players feel the same way as us.

lol thats such terrible logic. You cant suggest that I side with the Astros just because I don't principally believe in vacating titles. The opinions come from completely different places.

Should every World Series winning team that had PED users on it vacate their titles? They cheated. Where is the line?

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

It's not a reading comprehension issue 99.

You dont think the title should be taken away. Neither do Astros fans or the commissioner. Everyone else does.

You think taking a title away would be a bigger stain to the sport than letting an illegitimate title stand. Everyone but the commissioner and Astros fans disagree.

Your opinion is well documented. We understand. We just disagree. And the overwhelming majority of MLB players feel the same way as us.

lol thats such terrible logic. You cant suggest that I side with the Astros just because I don't principally believe in vacating titles. The opinions come from completely different places.

Should every World Series winning team that had PED users on it vacate their titles? They cheated. Where is the line?

Knowing what pitch is coming >> steroids.

Originally posted by TonyStarks:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

It's not a reading comprehension issue 99.

You dont think the title should be taken away. Neither do Astros fans or the commissioner. Everyone else does.

You think taking a title away would be a bigger stain to the sport than letting an illegitimate title stand. Everyone but the commissioner and Astros fans disagree.

Your opinion is well documented. We understand. We just disagree. And the overwhelming majority of MLB players feel the same way as us.

lol thats such terrible logic. You cant suggest that I side with the Astros just because I don't principally believe in vacating titles. The opinions come from completely different places.

Should every World Series winning team that had PED users on it vacate their titles? They cheated. Where is the line?

Knowing what pitch is coming >> steroids.

Right, but aren't both cheating?

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by TonyStarks:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

It's not a reading comprehension issue 99.

You dont think the title should be taken away. Neither do Astros fans or the commissioner. Everyone else does.

You think taking a title away would be a bigger stain to the sport than letting an illegitimate title stand. Everyone but the commissioner and Astros fans disagree.

Your opinion is well documented. We understand. We just disagree. And the overwhelming majority of MLB players feel the same way as us.

lol thats such terrible logic. You cant suggest that I side with the Astros just because I don't principally believe in vacating titles. The opinions come from completely different places.

Should every World Series winning team that had PED users on it vacate their titles? They cheated. Where is the line?

Knowing what pitch is coming >> steroids.

Right, but aren't both cheating?

Hgh is legal if you have a thyroid problem.

So I guess the deal is Manfred can't punish the players because he gave them immunity in order for players to cooperate, as agreed upon with the Players union. Lol, fleeced.

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
It's not a reading comprehension issue 99.

You dont think the title should be taken away. Neither do Astros fans or the commissioner. Everyone else does.

You think taking a title away would be a bigger stain to the sport than letting an illegitimate title stand. Everyone but the commissioner and Astros fans disagree.

Your opinion is well documented. We understand. We just disagree. And the overwhelming majority of MLB players feel the same way as us.

lol thats such terrible logic. You cant suggest that I side with the Astros just because I don't principally believe in vacating titles. The opinions come from completely different places.

Should every World Series winning team that had PED users on it vacate their titles? They cheated. Where is the line?

How is it terrible logic? You both dont think titles should be vacated. Your reason for having the opinion is different from theirs, but its still the same exact opinion. There are two groups of people who believe the title shouldnt be vacated. Astros fans, and the small number of fans like you who dont believe in vacating titles. Either way, you are both advocating the same exact thing.

And 99, if you can definitively prove a winning team has an organizational culture of feeding their players PEDs, and the team they face had zero PED users, then yes their title should be vacated. THAT would be a similar comparison to this.

Every single comparison you have brought up since we have debated this topic (PEDs, Black Sox, etc.) has been comparing apples to oranges. What you fail to acknowledge is how unprecedented this entire situation is.

wish there was more backlash like this to the Patriots cheating and spying on teams. That just got swept under the rug

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

How is it terrible logic? You both dont think titles should be vacated. Your reason for having the opinion is different from theirs, but its still the same exact opinion. There are two groups of people who believe the title shouldnt be vacated. Astros fans, and the small number of fans like you who dont believe in vacating titles. Either way, you are both advocating the same exact thing.

And 99, if you can definitively prove a winning team has an organizational culture of feeding their players PEDs, and the team they face had zero PED users, then yes their title should be vacated. THAT would be a similar comparison to this.

Every single comparison you have brought up since we have debated this topic (PEDs, Black Sox, etc.) has been comparing apples to oranges. What you fail to acknowledge is how unprecedented this entire situation is.

Unprecedented, yet 8 other teams are being investigated? Can you prove their opponents werent also doing it against them? Can you prove which specific pitches in which specific games they benefitted from? Just like with PED's, its impossible to know the exact details, which is why teams with PED users arent being asked to vacate titles.

Baseball is not vacating a title because 50 years from now they want this forgotten by most everyone, not a glaring blank space in the books that people still see forever like the 1994 strike. You might not like it, but they were never going to do it.

Originally posted by Garce:
So I guess the deal is Manfred can't punish the players because he gave them immunity in order for players to cooperate, as agreed upon with the Players union. Lol, fleeced.

players union said that is false and that is was Manfred who pushed to not punish the players

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
How is it terrible logic? You both dont think titles should be vacated. Your reason for having the opinion is different from theirs, but its still the same exact opinion. There are two groups of people who believe the title shouldnt be vacated. Astros fans, and the small number of fans like you who dont believe in vacating titles. Either way, you are both advocating the same exact thing.

And 99, if you can definitively prove a winning team has an organizational culture of feeding their players PEDs, and the team they face had zero PED users, then yes their title should be vacated. THAT would be a similar comparison to this.

Every single comparison you have brought up since we have debated this topic (PEDs, Black Sox, etc.) has been comparing apples to oranges. What you fail to acknowledge is how unprecedented this entire situation is.

Unprecedented, yet 8 other teams are being investigated? Can you prove their opponents werent also doing it against them? Can you prove which specific pitches in which specific games they benefitted from? Just like with PED's, its impossible to know the exact details, which is why teams with PED users arent being asked to vacate titles.

Baseball is not vacating a title because 50 years from now they want this forgotten by most everyone, not a glaring blank space in the books that people still see forever like the 1994 strike. You might not like it, but they were never going to do it.

forgotten in 50 years but you guys still bring up the black sox, the curse of Babe Ruth, the curse of the Cubs, etc. It wont be forgotten. Its called history.

And your argument of you cant prove the opponents weren't doing it is horrible. s**t...might as well make everything ok cuz you never know.

Originally posted by MagaBosa:

wish there was more backlash like this to the Patriots cheating and spying on teams. That just got swept under the rug

Hard to hit Brady wide open.

These guys are going to get fastballs to the hip.


Idk wtf little Altuve is going to get in terms of bean balls.

"Mvp! MVP! MVP!" Smh.

Originally posted by Rubberneck36:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

How is it terrible logic? You both dont think titles should be vacated. Your reason for having the opinion is different from theirs, but its still the same exact opinion. There are two groups of people who believe the title shouldnt be vacated. Astros fans, and the small number of fans like you who dont believe in vacating titles. Either way, you are both advocating the same exact thing.

And 99, if you can definitively prove a winning team has an organizational culture of feeding their players PEDs, and the team they face had zero PED users, then yes their title should be vacated. THAT would be a similar comparison to this.

Every single comparison you have brought up since we have debated this topic (PEDs, Black Sox, etc.) has been comparing apples to oranges. What you fail to acknowledge is how unprecedented this entire situation is.

Unprecedented, yet 8 other teams are being investigated? Can you prove their opponents werent also doing it against them? Can you prove which specific pitches in which specific games they benefitted from? Just like with PED's, its impossible to know the exact details, which is why teams with PED users arent being asked to vacate titles.

Baseball is not vacating a title because 50 years from now they want this forgotten by most everyone, not a glaring blank space in the books that people still see forever like the 1994 strike. You might not like it, but they were never going to do it.

forgotten in 50 years but you guys still bring up the black sox, the curse of Babe Ruth, the curse of the Cubs, etc. It wont be forgotten. Its called history.

And your argument of you cant prove the opponents weren't doing it is horrible. s**t...might as well make everything ok cuz you never know.

That was my sarcastic response to his suggestion that he would vacate titles of proven PED users if they had all the details.

The Giants stole signs to hit the 'shot heard round the world', and nobody really remembers that.

Originally posted by Niners99:
Unprecedented, yet 8 other teams are being investigated? Can you prove their opponents werent also doing it against them? Can you prove which specific pitches in which specific games they benefitted from? Just like with PED's, its impossible to know the exact details, which is why teams with PED users arent being asked to vacate titles.

Baseball is not vacating a title because 50 years from now they want this forgotten by most everyone, not a glaring blank space in the books that people still see forever like the 1994 strike. You might not like it, but they were never going to do it.

Originally posted by Niners99:
That was my sarcastic response to his suggestion that he would vacate titles of proven PED users if they had all the details.

The Giants stole signs to hit the 'shot heard round the world', and nobody really remembers that.

Last page you went on and on about not vacating the title because the astros players lost all credibility and they already have a stain on their records so it'd be pointless to remove the title etc. etc, even though acknowledging how big of a deal this was. But now you are saying everyone will forget about it anyway in 50 years......so the punishment that you are justifying not vacating the title for no one will remember? Or how does that work...Bc everyone in here's argument is that you should vacate the title so people WILL remember that this was an egregious situation, like Pete Rose. And your constant comparison of PED and the 17 Astros is really weak. It's like you are ignoring the entire MLB's reaction to this scandal within the past month. If everyone, or even a couple of people did this, no one would talk about it being that big of a deal.

Originally posted by Niners99:
When did I ever say I agreed with the commissioner? Manfred is awful.

I just agreed with baseball not vacating a title, and disagreed with the notion that the players totally got away with it, since the reputation will stick to them the rest of their lives, and probably cost them awards and free agent contract money down the road. Everything they had accomplished, and will accomplish is now totally disregarded. The sentiment behind the ring they got is now trashed. They'll get booed everywhere they go. What did they get away with?

Originally posted by DynastyChile:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Unprecedented, yet 8 other teams are being investigated? Can you prove their opponents werent also doing it against them? Can you prove which specific pitches in which specific games they benefitted from? Just like with PED's, its impossible to know the exact details, which is why teams with PED users arent being asked to vacate titles.

Baseball is not vacating a title because 50 years from now they want this forgotten by most everyone, not a glaring blank space in the books that people still see forever like the 1994 strike. You might not like it, but they were never going to do it.

Originally posted by Niners99:
That was my sarcastic response to his suggestion that he would vacate titles of proven PED users if they had all the details.

The Giants stole signs to hit the 'shot heard round the world', and nobody really remembers that.

Last page you went on and on about not vacating the title because the astros players lost all credibility and they already have a stain on their records so it'd be pointless to remove the title etc. etc, even though acknowledging how big of a deal this was. But now you are saying everyone will forget about it anyway in 50 years......so the punishment that you are justifying not vacating the title for no one will remember? Or how does that work...Bc everyone in here's argument is that you should vacate the title so people WILL remember that this was an egregious situation, like Pete Rose. And your constant comparison of PED and the 17 Astros is really weak. It's like you are ignoring the entire MLB's reaction to this scandal within the past month. If everyone, or even a couple of people did this, no one would talk about it being that big of a deal.

Originally posted by Niners99:
When did I ever say I agreed with the commissioner? Manfred is awful.

I just agreed with baseball not vacating a title, and disagreed with the notion that the players totally got away with it, since the reputation will stick to them the rest of their lives, and probably cost them awards and free agent contract money down the road. Everything they had accomplished, and will accomplish is now totally disregarded. The sentiment behind the ring they got is now trashed. They'll get booed everywhere they go. What did they get away with?

Im telling you why baseball isn't vacating the title. Ive said this many times. They know that decades from now, this entire situation, which makes the game look horrible, will be FAR less remembered if they just leave the 2017 WS alone. If they vacate the title, it becomes a glaring reminder for all of history. Baseball isn't going to put that kind of scar on itself just to punish the Astros.

You also have to remain consistent. The 2004 Red Sox had Manny and Ortiz. If the Astros are forced to vacate for cheating, why shouldn't the Red Sox be forced to vacate 2004 for having cheaters? The 1989 A's had McGwire and Canseco. Vacated? If the Giants had won in 2002, should they have vacated the title because of Bonds? Or is it ok because Glaus was using?

Im all for punishing the Astros. Ban any of them who were actively participating in this for life for all I care. I just fundamentally disagree with vacating titles. You cant go back and change history no matter how bad you wish you could. Its a slippery slope.