Lebron vs. His Airness

Mj no contest. He was unbeatable. No fundamentals in today's game. Damn kids

Originally posted by Jcool:

Originally posted by 4ML:
On my previous comment on Curry and Kyrie - I'll take it s step further.

IMO - Curry is the greatest shooter the game has ever seen.

I used to think I was good making 80 out of 100 attempts around the college 3 pt line. This of course was just practice without a hand in yo face.

Curry regularly makes 100+ in a row during practice from the NBA line! Then he drains shots with ease from way beyond the arc with guys breathing right in his face!

Originally posted by fortyninerglory:

I used to think I was good making 80 out of 100 attempts around the college 3 pt line. This of course was just practice without a hand in yo face.

Curry regularly makes 100+ in a row during practice from the NBA line! Then he drains shots with ease from way beyond the arc with guys breathing right in his face!

You shot % is 80% just inside the arc

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
no, actually it's not at all like that. But you can go on believing that you too have his formula that definitively proves which generation of players/game are better and it's somehow set in stone. You should go write a book since you have this all figured out. And at this somehow not being a 2 sided argument based on opinions. wow.

It's not a formula. It's 3 basic tenants that are common across a number of sports. It's not an argument at all. It's one side pointing to a blatant trend that is going on across many different sports and another side saying, "No, the players I grew up watching are the best".The generation of players 20 years from now will be better than the current generation too barring another league expansion. That doesn't mean there will be another Jordan who will stand out from his peers and win 6 championships, but the average player and the understanding of the game will continue to improve.

TNT's Shaquille O'Neal joined the show to talk about the NBA Finals, his new podcast and more.

Dan asked who he'd pick in their prime – Michael Jordan or LeBron James. He chose Jordan. Then Dan asked if he'd take Kobe Bryant or LeBron.
"I played with both of them," Shaq said. "Kobe has that killer instinct. I'll probably have to go with Kobe. That's not a knock against LeBron. "

Originally posted by StOnEy333:

TNT's Shaquille O'Neal joined the show to talk about the NBA Finals, his new podcast and more.

Dan asked who he'd pick in their prime – Michael Jordan or LeBron James. He chose Jordan. Then Dan asked if he'd take Kobe Bryant or LeBron.
"I played with both of them," Shaq said. "Kobe has that killer instinct. I'll probably have to go with Kobe. That's not a knock against LeBron. "

Shaq was exactly right and I like LeBron way more than I ever liked Kobe but I know Kobe never shied away from the biggest moments. He always believed he could overcome even when he was going at MJ. LeBron has improved and is still improving mentally but last year vs Kawhi was a setback to me. MJ would have hung 50 on the kid just because you ain't supposed to check him one on one down the stretch. LeBron with a 40 lb advantage should have worked Kawhi on the low post and demanded the double team to get open looks for his teammates.

Originally posted by eastcoast49ersfan:
1. Lebron is not getting any better. He has already peaked and is on his way down. He has added different elements to his game, but he's not the dominant force on offense that used to force entire teams to collapse the paint and he doesn't have the same endurance he used to to put forth full effort on defense in the regular seasons and playoffs. Guys like Kobe and Lebron who came into the league out of high school tend to reach their peak a little earlier because they put tons of mileage on their bodies.
This article points out that James has logged more minutes by 30 than any player in the history of the NBA. He has a ton of playoff minutes and minutes in international games as well.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2294006-how-lebron-james-stacks-up-against-other-nba-legends-at-30

2. The league is officiated differently and could be considered "softer" because of the new rules, but players are also more talented. You're living in the past if you think that players today are somehow less talented in spite of the fact that there's a much bigger pool of athletes globally and there have been improvements in training/conditioning/nutrition over the past 30 years. There will probably be someone more talented than both James and Jordan in the next 30 years or so. Whether or not they are considered the greatest depends on how you want to measure greatness.

3. The assumption that 80's/90's basketball is the only true form of basketball and everyone should be transported to that era when making comparisons is a little bizarre. Yes, some players today (Curry) may have struggled against more physical defense and may have gotten injured. But a lot of the big guys who played back then, could not have survived in today's NBA where big men are forced to defend pick and rolls and there's an emphasis on spreading the floor with shooting. 80's/90's players were conditioned to play in that style of basketball and your whole argument seems to be that under the old rules which they were accustomed to, they would perform better than today's players (which I don't agree with - I think the growth in skill/athleticism/modernization of offenses and defenses would more than offset the adjustment to the fouling rules). Being better in their own era under rules they are accustomed to doesn't make someone a better player.

On the other hand, if you made those 80's/90's players play in today's NBA, they would get demolished because they would have to re-learn how to play defense and players back then were not as talented. There are exceptions of course - guys like Jordan, Bird, Magic, and Kareem would be good in any era, but on the whole, the level of play has gone up.

4. Using comments from historical players doesn't prove anything. Lots of former players have come out on both sides of the argument. Scottie Pippen said that Lebron may be a better overall player than Jordan. I'm sure Shaq is sick of Lebron being talked about as one of the two best players of all time recently and if he puts Lebron above Kobe, that adds to the debate and strengthens Lebron's position above Shaq. Jordan has done the same thing throughout Lebron's career, ranking him behind Kobe because he knows he (Jordan) compares extremely favorably to Kobe.

Shaq also said Dr. J was the greatest player ever so he's an interesting source.
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/08/21/shaq-answers-the-question-kobe-or-lebron/

Shaq has said Kobe is better because of his killer instinct and that you can't compare them until Lebron has more rings. Malone and Barkley also said Lebron is flat out better than Kobe was. The only argument Kobe fans have is rings and Shaq would burn some bridges with Lakers fans if he flat out said Lebron is a better player, but it's blatantly obvious at this point.

Man you talked about science nutrition and training. It was advanced in the 90s too. I was there. Have you seen still images of the 90s Bulls team? Look at those men. Ain't a starting 5 in the league right now looking like Ron Harper MJ Pip Rodman and whichever of the 3 headed starting center you want to use and then you had a hooper like Kukoc as the 6th man. That team was built on thirty somethings that were chiseled mean lean and were eastern conference machines. Brick houses and ain't nothing in todays game more fit and conditioned than MJ Pip and Rodman and they were well in their 30s. They would run you outta the gym on both ends of the court withstanding and dishing out punishment and doing it 40 minutes plus. You see I know how these younguns coming up now inside the house on the keyboard and on the video games. We came up outside on the block running to the courts and the fields hooping sun up to when the mosquitoes started biting you drinking water all day then running back home sweaty to bathe and then go to bed to arise and do it all over again. We played video games but only after the sun went down. Nowadays it is rare I see kids at the courts. They fat and gaming all day. I will say that training for pro athletes is ever improving and especially with injury prevention and recovery but you look at those teams back then and you look at those bodies of those grown men and you look at the rules of the game then and you tell me that stars of today would star then. Durant would never play in the paint back then and put up 30 but he is now. Sure you got some great athletes now but a stud like Westbrook playing point now and ain't got PG skills as well as D Rose. That is because guys didn't go to school. The rules were blatantly changed to accommodate more scoring and now we got our youth thinking guys now would've shined back then. I saw the rules change and I knew the reason why and I was here before they did. To me the game just ain't the same. All this hand shaking and hugging is for the birds. I want that hate back in the game so we can see who is really a baller and who aint. LeBron is the best today but in the old days he should have elbowed Kawhi a couple times in the chin and let him know it was gonna be a long series checking him one on one. But hey, I am just a fan of the game and I still say LeBron is better now than when he went to MIA and I think he is still getting better as far as his mental toughness. Tim Duncan is still good because he went to school and his fundamentals have him as an allstar even as he is turning 40. Kids need some school and fundamentals like the old days

Originally posted by eastcoast49ersfan:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

no, actually it's not at all like that. But you can go on believing that you too have his formula that definitively proves which generation of players/game are better and it's somehow set in stone. You should go write a book since you have this all figured out. And at this somehow not being a 2 sided argument based on opinions. wow.

It's not a formula. It's 3 basic tenants that are common across a number of sports. It's not an argument at all. It's one side pointing to a blatant trend that is going on across many different sports and another side saying, "No, the players I grew up watching are the best".The generation of players 20 years from now will be better than the current generation too barring another league expansion. That doesn't mean there will be another Jordan who will stand out from his peers and win 6 championships, but the average player and the understanding of the game will continue to improve.

For not being a formula it sure sounds like a formula. From it you have come to the conclusion that today's players are unequivocally better than those from the 80's (or any other era). And that's fine, it's a totally valid opinion.

Since when did people call Jordan "his airness"?


No one says that.

Originally posted by Garcia:

Since when did people call Jordan "his airness"?


No one says that.

Since always

The fact that basketball players are better today is just math. It's a statistical impossibility for it to not be that way. There's a reason why D-1's play in different divisions than D-3's. If you want to get mad at math, knock yourself out.

And regarding 4ML's comment about Curry... http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2482473-is-stephen-curry-the-best-shooter-ever-yes-say-many-of-nbas-all-time-marksmen

Originally posted by 4ML:

I think Jordan is obviously better but not because he was 6-0 in NBA finals. That's a silly stat.

Did Jordan play only 6 seasons and never lost in the post season?

I'd rather lose in the Finals a couple times than lose in the 1st round couple times. Getting knocked out at the first stage is a lot worse if you're a competitor, IMHO.

Jordan played in an Eastern Conference that actually had tough opponents. LeBron has played his entire career in an embarassment of a conference. Losing teams making the playoffs. The East is a joke, and thats why LeBron will never go West.

Nuff said.

Originally posted by eastcoast49ersfan:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Oh Jesus here we go again I think you should not take it so personally when folks say 80's basketball/players were better. I love how you think you have this magical formula that somehow proves today's players/game is better...hate to break it to you but you don't...no one does. It's called a f**king opinion

That's like calling gravity an opinion.

1. Increased popularity (and $): Draws younger players in the US and globally to the game. You can choose to believe that increased competition and a bigger talent pool has no effect on the level of talent, but that's a pretty weak belief. Related to this is the growth of AAU basketball which showcases the talented youth players and gives them an opportunity to play with and against each other.

2. Improved physical training/conditioning/nutrition: This is common across all sports - players today are bigger, stronger, and faster than they were 30 years ago and much of this is due to improvements in equipment and knowledge when it comes to lifting weights, nutrition, conditioning, etc (the other piece is the increased size of the pool should naturally increase the size/athleticism of athletes at the top).

3. Growth in knowledge about the game: The game has developed over the past 30 years ago based partly on changes to the rules, but also on the increased use of statistics and basketball analytics. There is more effort to spread the floor in today's game and better defensive rotations. Players today have had the benefit of 20-30 years of knowledge gained surrounding basketball and have had access to tape to learn from players who played before them (and learn their opponents' tendencies which forces players to become more well-rounded). They also got a chance to grow up watching players in the 80's/90's and adopt some of the same skills (think Kobe and Jordan).

You can choose to believe that players today are not better than they were 30 years ago, but that's like choosing to believe it's a coincidence that we're not all floating. The average level of play has risen and will continue to rise. The average level of play can fall in the short run (thinking 3-4 years at most), but there's a strong upward trend you're ignoring.

The main factor that reduces the average level of talent is an expansion of the league which happened in the 80's and 90's. 6 teams were added between 1988 and 1996 and expansion teams are generally weaker early on. This is one of the reasons why there were some teams that were very strong relative to the rest of the league (the Bulls) and others that had extremely poor records. The talent pool has expanded significantly more than the league has since the 80's, so this is likely a non-factor (but was a factor in the league being weaker when Jordan was winning championships).

I find it funny that people think there are two sides to this argument or that it's an opinion.

Gravity is both a law and a theory.

This year, I have personally never seen a shooter like Curry. I used to have Reggie as number one, but Steph was just an animal this year. If he keeps this up, I think he'll be the best shooter ever.