Originally posted by Crazy49er1313:
I agree that he hasn't faced a talent like Mayweather, but how can you say he's a "cherrypicker"? Is that b/c Mayweather fought Mosely, so that excuses fighting ppl like Carlos Baldomir, Sharmba Mitchell, Henry Bruseles?
No... it's because he always takes the guaranteed victories. After DLH... which is when he's started getting proclaimed as ATG by his fans... is when the cherrypicking started. Hatton, Cotto, Clottey, Margarito. All cherrypicked, all slow, all shown to be very vulnerable prior to Pacman... save for Clottey but that dude was really no threat. You go from turning down a Mayweather fight over issues you later have no problem with to signing a fight with Joshua Clottey 1 day later. Not one week later, one day later. I mean, they gave him 14 whole days! Who you trying to fool with the excuse that getting 2 tablespoons drawn 2 weeks prior to the fight will affect you? Joshua Clottey? Over Mayweather? Over a fair compromise? Come on!
I just don't see how he can get unmeasurable amounts of praise for beating people he's
supposed to beat. It's not like we don't know that he's like Barry Sanders with his feet. We know that's his best trait. And when he goes against guys that have previously been exposed, that love to stand and trade and who have no lateral movement at all to remotely counter their opponent's bread and butter how can you expect a fight to go any other way?
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Is it b/c Manny hasn't fought Martinez or Williams, but Mayweather has defeated both of them without even getting into the ring?
No, it's because I would like to see him go against someone who poses a threat. Someone who has just as equal a chance of beating the Pac Man... at least when he's trying to rewrite history by blatantly adding titles vs opponents that have no business getting a titleshot at that weight class.
That's the only thing that irked me about the bout with Margarito, otherwise I had no problem with it. I wouldn't have cared if he defended his welterweight title instead. But collecting trophies against inferior opponents just for the sake of getting in the history books just doesn't sit well with me. But boxing has it's flaws and Arum can throw his weight around and make this type of s**t happen.
That's really the only point I was making and never really thought it would turn into such a big debate. Everything else apart from that was brought on by you guys.
I would have been ecstatic and I'd be praising him right now if he had beaten Maravilla Martinez for the Jr. Middleweight title. Now that would merit a spot in the history books.
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If you wanna talk about "cherrypicking", I don't know how you can say Manny did while Mayweather isn't.
It's one thing that I love his fighting style, it's another thing to defend his choice in fights like a blind homer. I don't do that. I know he hasn't faced every possible challenge out there, believe me I would love to see him fight more often and take on all comers.
I'm not the one calling Mayweather the greatest ever. I'm not the one making mountains out of molehills, and putting him on a pedestal. I really just enjoy how he fights, that's it. I don't care if you go and nitpick through every one of his opponents, I really don't.
But why get so defensive, and even resort to name calling (not you personally, at least that i can recall), when I pick apart Pac's career and show that it's not as impressive as it's perceived?
Anyway I digress and I will entertain your breakdown for a sec.
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Let's break down common fighters:
- Although Mayweather beat DLH and Hatton before Pacman, Manny fought them both only a year and a half after their bouts with PBF, each of whom won fights prior (Hatton even TKO'd Malignaggi, whom many ppl thought should've fought Pacman)
Malignaggi.. come on, that dude's feather-fisted. He's a B-fighter at best.
I thought DLH would beat both those guys. I was wrong. Although he may or may not have been at a disadvantage with the weight drain, I give props to Pac on that one. That was a huge move up in weight class and totally dominated a legend in the game. But just because his name is DLH does not mean that that was the best version of DLH either of them faced.
It's like DLH has Chavez in his resume but we know that wasn't the same Chavez we were accustomed to watching in the previous decade. Nobody's in awe over his victories over Chavez.
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- Pacman fought Marquez during Marquez's prime and at Marquez's featherweight weight class, while Mayweather fought him at Welterweight, which clearly affected his speed against PBF.
No argument here.
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- While I give props to PBF for beating Chavez, Corrales, Gatti, Judah, and even include Mosely (refuse to include Castillo, wasn't in their stratospheres), Manny has his own big name fights in Morales (3 times), Marquez (2 times), Diaz, Cotto, Clottey, and Margarito (after PBF refused to fight him numerous times).
Diaz... Clottey... nah.
I don't discredit who Pac fought. I discredit the significance people place behind those fights that seem to have catapulted Pacquiao into God status. Especially after facing DLH.
Hatton got knocked out by "KO artist" Floyd Mayweather and should have gotten knocked out by Juan Lazcano, but he can thank the ref for saving him there. You say he beat Malignaggi as if it actually means something. Paulie couldn't hurt a fly. After Mayweather and Lazcano rocked him, there was no doubt in my mind he'd end up on the canvas vs. Pac. He beat someone he was supposed to beat.
Cotto is slow, likes to stand there and trade, perfect for Pac. Got exposed by Margarito, maybe even fed some plaster of Paris, and KTFO'd late in the fight when Cotto had nothing left. Clottey of all people nearly pulled the same thing, minus the bloody face. He had Cotto in trouble late in the fight, running for his life. All he had to do was keep attacking Cotto and he probably would have KO'd him or forced a stoppage... yes Clottey, the guy that hasn't had a notable KO win in his career.. If these two can do that to Cotto, wear him out and put him out at the end, what about a mobile Pac with excellent stamina? He beat someone he was supposed to beat.
Hatton and Cotto aren't exactly Goliaths either. I think Hatton's a tad shorter than Pac. Cotto's maybe like half an inch taller than Pac, 1 inch at most. I think Pac has a reach advantage on both of them.
Clottey is doodoo, enough said.
Margarito is one of the slowest boxers out there in terms of both foot movement and hand speed. And literally no head movement. Another perfect opponent for the Pac Man. He beat someone he was supposed to beat.
And Mayweather refused to fight him because he was chasing Oscar. He couldn't fight Oscar because he was tied down to Bob Arum's Top Rank and Oscar didn't deal with Arum. Floyd jumped ship. Would you rather fight an unknown fighter that does nothing for your career for $8 million? Or do you take on the biggest fight that could possibly be made with Oscar for $25 million? It's not that difficult a choice.
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I can't stand you keep trying to label Manny a "cherrypicker", while praising Mayweather for fighting all these great boxers, but in comparison, they both have fought similar fighters (though Manny has fought more fighters at weights he wasn't normally fighting at) and have shown they're both great fighters.
Cherrypicker, smartly managed to take on minimal risk fights, same thing. Even Master Roach has admitted to the favorable match selections. Why can't yall?
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Moral of the story, PBF needs to put his big boy pants on, take the fight, and solidify his place in boxing history, either as one of the greatest if he beats Pacman, or the choke-artist who avoided matches b/c it was more important for him to have the zero in the loss column then fight a "real" challenge
And for what it's worth, Mayweather did call out Cotto and Hatton when all three were at the top of the 140 lb. division, as well as a prime Mosley... and Oscar and who knows who else.
Don't recall why Hatton refused but they went on to fight anyway, Cotto was supposedly too green, even so he never made Mayweather an offer, proof after Hatton/Mayweather, Miguel went ahead and scheduled 2 matches with some guy and then Margo, but no offer, no call out to Mayweather... Mosley refused... Oscar dragged it out a bit but eventually accepted.
How come he doesn't get credit for being ducked? What matches did this choke-artist avoid again? Margarito? Yeah let's fight this guy instead of some guy named Oscar who'll only multiply the purse by 3 and catapult his career. Pacquiao? The same guy that turned him down to go fight Clottey? Anyone else? My memory's a little foggy.
But of course it's just easier to take every hater's word instead of taking the time to do a little research and get some context.
[ Edited by silkyjohnson on Nov 18, 2010 at 05:15:22 ]
