QB Brock Purdy Thread

Originally posted by OKC49erFan:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 49ersRing:

Originally posted by OKC49erFan:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by OKC49erFan:
I understand it is a different era, but this isn't how Bill Walsh did it. Throwing such a young project-QB to the wolves fails far more often than not.

You're right it's a much different era with cap requirements.

Even so, cap number shouldn't necessarily factor into playing time. It should always be earned through hard work and competition. The situation this season is far more palatable than last season, where the job was simply handed out. But, they never expected JG to remain with the team. There were a lot of strange factors last season.

Work hard and compete, and let the chips fall where they may. Best player plays.

Everyone says this and points to last year as the exception, but when has this been true on the team when it comes to the starting QB role? Jimmy never had to compete for the starting job once he signed his deal here.

Yeah man it's a bunch of baloney. Same with draft status. You get more opportunities the higher you were drafted. You get a longer leash the more you've been invested in. That's just how it works.

My point with the whole cap space stuff was you could afford to have Joe and young on the same team if you wanted. I hate comparing how structures of a team were built or how so and so ran a team back then. That's like 3 yrs ago lol. s**t is much different now.

Jimmy sat behind Brady on the Patriots. On the 49ers, who was gonna take the job from him?

Lance was about one game from being put in in 2021.

Originally posted by 49ersRing:

Originally posted by OKC49erFan:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by OKC49erFan:
I understand it is a different era, but this isn't how Bill Walsh did it. Throwing such a young project-QB to the wolves fails far more often than not.

You're right it's a much different era with cap requirements.

Even so, cap number shouldn't necessarily factor into playing time. It should always be earned through hard work and competition. The situation this season is far more palatable than last season, where the job was simply handed out. But, they never expected JG to remain with the team. There were a lot of strange factors last season.

Work hard and compete, and let the chips fall where they may. Best player plays.

Everyone says this and points to last year as the exception, but when has this been true on the team when it comes to the starting QB role? Jimmy never had to compete for the starting job once he signed his deal here.

Well, that's kind of disingenuous.

2017 He came in late in the season and took over for the QB's who had been mostly ineffective or injured. Went 5-0
2018 He came into camp as the unquestioned starter. Who else was on the roster that the team hadn't already decided he was better than? Then he got hurt
2019 Same question as above who was on the roster for him to compete with? Then he helped the team get to the Super Bowl
2020 Same question as above. Then he gets hurt again, along with several other starters. Team goes 6-10. What other QB on the roster was as good as him.
2021 They draft Lance. Kyle states flat out that Lance would have a hard time beating Jimmy out, if anyone it's Kyle who keeps it from being a true competition.
But no serious person could believe that Lance would have beaten Jimmy out that year in a fair fight.
2022 Lance is handed the job without having done a single thing to earn it beyond being drafted #3 and the fact that Jimmy was coming off an injury and the team was trying to move on from him anyway. Based on George Kittle's recent comments, it seems to me, if that camp had been a straight up competition there is a legitimate question as to whether or not Lance would have come out on top then either. Lucky for them they decided to keep Jimmy around for one more year and, once again, he helped get them to the NFC Championship game.

If anything, it was Lance who was handed the job without having to compete for it. Now he's in a situation where he has to compete just to remain a viable option for the job. It will be up to him to show what he can do,

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
lol now you are comping a pick 3 overall to a round 3
(this referring to HOU drafting 3 overall and us drafting rnd 3 DB)

i think net yds allowed per pass play is a pretty good judge of pass D, yet here you are, arguing in favor of some crap HOU pass D, cuz you want to spin it. We get it NY you are driving the TL train, that doesn't mean you have to fabricate stories about HOU having some pass D to reckon with, that's not reality as of 2021.. maybe now with their high end young guys drafted in 2022. Pitre seems a stud.

DAL imo, one of the most fearsome Ds in football, crazy team speed up front, ballers in coverage, high end coaching, depth, you name it, one of the most feared rushers in the game also. That was night and day when BP was facing them in postseason. I really liked that performance from BP vs DAL. TLs too in his HOU game. But I don't equate those Ds.

How about spending $85M on a passer rusher. How about spending $14M per on a DB? Drafting Drake Jackson etc etc love how you leave that out lol. Shocker. Crazy the Texans moved up for the best player in the draft lol.

You call me out for finding a stat that backs up my point. Well what the f**k are you doing right now?! you don't even know what DVOA is and yet you try to argue it lol. You toss around QB rating and you don't even know what the stat is or how it comes about.

If you actually paid attention you'd see I'm not driving any train. You're so butthurt he didn't turn into a MVP after 30 passing attempts, that you get mad at someone else who has SAID all they want to see is him actually fail before labeling him anything. Small samples sizes. You like others are so premature in your stances. I mean that's you in here.

Your debates lack SO MUCH objectivity, it's pointless to even talk to you in here. So I'm done my man. Feel free to comment on my post, I will not be having any more discussions with you. Not until you can have an objective conversation.

You post with so much objectivity that up becomes down, good becomes bad, and crap pass Ds become good.. I fear what more of your objectivity will bring

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
I'd say I'd have a 99% chance of being right that if Brock goes 6 or 7 games playing horribly and we're not winning that he will put Trey or Sam in.

Oh stop it lol. I'm sure you were 99% right that Jimmy would be inconsistent, injury prone, have tunnel vision after that 2017 season lol. I'm sure you thought Josh allen was gonna be the face of EA sports after his first 170 passing attempts his rookie yr. I'm sure you thought Hurts would be one of the highest paid players after watching his first 170 passing attempts too

people tossing out claims like this after a ridiculously small sample size is part of the issue I have with all of it.

Oh, forgot to address the rest.

(1) Jimmy was already inconsistent in 2017 (5 INTs), but I was convinced he'd stop throwing without his feet on deep passes. He didn't. At that time I didn't know that he also predetermined where he was going with the ball too much, but regardless, Jimmy to this day is NOT a bad quarterback. He is well worth the 2nd that was used on him, and well worth what we traded for him. The dude is no worse than mid-range.

(2) You better believe I thought Josh Allen was going to be great. I fell in love with that guy the year before he got drafted. Every time I see a guy that reminds me of Brett Favre or John Elway I get wet wet. You don't see them often (no, Lance didn't remind me of those guys; probably closer to Elway, but he reminded me of an unprocessed McNabb with maybe a stronger arm—which, by the way, would be a great situation to be in).

(3) I wasn't really too impressed with Hurts in college. Wasn't really that impressed with him in Philly early either, but I knew he'd always have a place in the league due to his athleticism and solid arm strength. Right now I'm still not incredibly impressed with him as a passing quarterback. He benefits tremendously from the elite WRs he has around him, and the way that offense is constructed. Definitely one of the best QBs, but a lot of it has to do with his threat on the ground. (For context, his EPA added from passing is the same as Derek Carr's, found at the link below)
https://www.espn.com/nfl/qbr

(4) I still believe Lance is going to be a good NFL QB. His problem is that he has to wait for Brock to get hurt or come crashing down. That may not happen. If it doesn't, Lance is going to start somewhere else and perhaps become great. So take the clock back. Imagine if he doesn't get hurt in back to back seasons. Where would his growth be? Well, I think he chose the wrong QB tutors early on, so maybe not that much further along. But now that he has Christensen, I think in a couple years he's going to be a very good QB.

But again, we can't have two good QBs beyond this season, because of cap ramifications. And if Purdy remains good, how does Lance get on the field? Basically, his hope to be the 49ers Franchise QB rests on four things, three of which must happen:

This must happen:
(1) He must beat out Sam Darnold in camp. I think he has the edge here, but we'll see.
At least one of these two things must happen:
(2) Brock must get hurt or not be ready when the season starts.
(3) Brock must play poorly for several games in a row.
This must happen:
(4) He must be very good when given his opportunity. He's improved his mechanics, but is it enough? His lack of experience is still a problem. Will he make the right reads and be on time? Unfortunately, he will not get the chance to go through many growing pains if he's given an opportunity.

Originally posted by 49ers81:

Originally posted by 49ersRing:

Originally posted by OKC49erFan:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by OKC49erFan:
I understand it is a different era, but this isn't how Bill Walsh did it. Throwing such a young project-QB to the wolves fails far more often than not.

You're right it's a much different era with cap requirements.

Even so, cap number shouldn't necessarily factor into playing time. It should always be earned through hard work and competition. The situation this season is far more palatable than last season, where the job was simply handed out. But, they never expected JG to remain with the team. There were a lot of strange factors last season.

Work hard and compete, and let the chips fall where they may. Best player plays.

Everyone says this and points to last year as the exception, but when has this been true on the team when it comes to the starting QB role? Jimmy never had to compete for the starting job once he signed his deal here.

Well, that's kind of disingenuous.

2017 He came in late in the season and took over for the QB's who had been mostly ineffective or injured. Went 5-0
2018 He came into camp as the unquestioned starter. Who else was on the roster that the team hadn't already decided he was better than? Then he got hurt
2019 Same question as above who was on the roster for him to compete with? Then he helped the team get to the Super Bowl
2020 Same question as above. Then he gets hurt again, along with several other starters. Team goes 6-10. What other QB on the roster was as good as him.
2021 They draft Lance. Kyle states flat out that Lance would have a hard time beating Jimmy out, if anyone it's Kyle who keeps it from being a true competition.
But no serious person could believe that Lance would have beaten Jimmy out that year in a fair fight.
2022 Lance is handed the job without having done a single thing to earn it beyond being drafted #3 and the fact that Jimmy was coming off an injury and the team was trying to move on from him anyway. Based on George Kittle's recent comments, it seems to me, if that camp had been a straight up competition there is a legitimate question as to whether or not Lance would have come out on top then either. Lucky for them they decided to keep Jimmy around for one more year and, once again, he helped get them to the NFC Championship game.

If anything, it was Lance who was handed the job without having to compete for it. Now he's in a situation where he has to compete just to remain a viable option for the job. It will be up to him to show what he can do,

Trey was absolutely given the starting job with no questions asked last year, which makes sense, but idk why people say he didn't compete for it?

we literally tried everything possible to get rid of the QB who was better and the starter and then gave him the job. Then brought in Nate sudfield to back him up and drafted a qb with the last pick in the draft as a development young guy.

i get giving it to him last year, when you draft someone like that, you usually have to just insert them to get them started. At this point, based on what the team has seen from him in camps/practices/few games, they feel like he needs to win the starting job if he wants to start.

he may look better than he has, but the question becomes "does he actually look good in comparison to other starting nfl QB quality play? Or does he just look better than he used to?" Cause we know he didn't look good last off season, so how much of an improvement is that? I don't see people saying "Lance is out there being a field general, leading the drills, dominating, coaching guys up to be in the right spot". All you hear is "he's more confident and looks better". Lol I don't think we will really have that answer until training camp but so far, seems like that is all it is.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Let me just say this to both sides of this argument:

(1) The Texans defense when we played them last was better than their raw stats indicate. Bad offense makes your defense worse, and they were the 32nd best offense.

(2) The Cowboys defense last year was also better than their statistics indicate. Their pass rush in particular. That was a great defense .Absolutely on par with our defense. The fact that Brock didn't cost us is remarkable. He remained quite poised in the face of maybe the second best pass rush (we had the best pass rusher, but the Eagles and Cowboys had better team pass rush, IMHO; they were tied with the Eagles at 52% pass rush win rate. We were only 46%).

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/34536376/2022-nfl-pass-rushing-run-stopping-blocking-leaderboard-win-rate-rankings-top-players-teams

One of Brock's "near interception" I keep seeing posted here was a tipped pass. The kid played very well. He missed a few things, sure. Was late a couple times, yeah. But he avoided the game-losing mistake. We lost by two scores if Jimmy is our QB in that game.

.
.

So, both sides of this Trey v. Brock argument are underestimating how good the other side's QB is. Trey is not trash, and Brock is not just a lucky one hit wonder.

You seem to get it. DAL D >>> HOU D.. kind of a silly debate, you don't pick and choose what D to face, but if ppl want to debate those two Ds.. them's the facts.

You really have to cherry pick stats to show that HOU D as anything other than near absolute league worst, including in pass D.

BPs near INT was tipped, the other near INT which gets shared often, is a one on one downfield shot to our top WR last season. You want a QB taking those chances in one on ones, it's just not an accurate ball.. but that's why you trust your guy, BA made sure, it was no INT.. it was in no way a dropped INT, the ball was contacted by BA, essentially knocking it way iirc. That's simply not a drop.

The point of mentioning Houston is that people who hate Lance for "reasons" (most because they are jilted Jimmy fantasizers) is that it's disingenuous to try to knock Lance's very good second half performance simply because the defense didn't finish high statistically. It was at the time we faced them no worse than midrange. Lance played well, PERIOD. There are NO F-ING QUALIFICATIONS NEEDED. He. PLAYED. WELL. End of discussion.

Why can't the former Jimmy cultists just give credit where credit is due? It's as bad as the people saying Purdy played badly against Dallas. Defenses like Dallas make guys throw multiple picks or take multiple sacks. Both played well.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Let me just say this to both sides of this argument:

(1) The Texans defense when we played them last was better than their raw stats indicate. Bad offense makes your defense worse, and they were the 32nd best offense.

(2) The Cowboys defense last year was also better than their statistics indicate. Their pass rush in particular. That was a great defense .Absolutely on par with our defense. The fact that Brock didn't cost us is remarkable. He remained quite poised in the face of maybe the second best pass rush (we had the best pass rusher, but the Eagles and Cowboys had better team pass rush, IMHO; they were tied with the Eagles at 52% pass rush win rate. We were only 46%).

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/34536376/2022-nfl-pass-rushing-run-stopping-blocking-leaderboard-win-rate-rankings-top-players-teams

One of Brock's "near interception" I keep seeing posted here was a tipped pass. The kid played very well. He missed a few things, sure. Was late a couple times, yeah. But he avoided the game-losing mistake. We lost by two scores if Jimmy is our QB in that game.

.
.

So, both sides of this Trey v. Brock argument are underestimating how good the other side's QB is. Trey is not trash, and Brock is not just a lucky one hit wonder.

Honestly no one was trying to compare either team. I have no idea how that even became a thing. I just pointed out their pass D wasn't complete s**t.

the hypocrisy is in how people can't even say lance had a good game because this or that…they have no problem consistently show the raw stats from Brock/Sam to backup why they "played well".

Some People show the same stats for Lance in that game and it's nope, he played like trash or "only played well for a 1.5 QRs"

fans legit going out of their way to downplay Lance after a must win game his rookie yr with a broken finger. makeup whatever they can. Stats look great, but that's not enough for them. It shows there is no objectivity to be had from them, and overall making their debate pure crap.

no one wants to debate/have a conversation with someone that can't be objective. It's pointless.

Yes I agree with this here. It's completely asinine to deny that Lance played well in that second half against Houston.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Yes I agree with this here. It's completely asinine to deny that Lance played well in that second half against Houston.

Indeed it is Golden. Indeed it is.

Sadly here we are

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
The point of mentioning Houston is that people who hate Lance for "reasons" (most because they are jilted Jimmy fantasizers) is that it's disingenuous to try to knock Lance's very good second half performance simply because the defense didn't finish high statistically. It was at the time we faced them no worse than midrange. Lance played well, PERIOD. There are NO F-ING QUALIFICATIONS NEEDED. He. PLAYED. WELL. End of discussion.

Why can't the former Jimmy cultists just give credit where credit is due? It's as bad as the people saying Purdy played badly against Dallas. Defenses like Dallas make guys throw multiple picks or take multiple sacks. Both played well.

When you put those two games in the same post, as you are doing, you invite the comparison of sure, they both played well, but those aren't the same situation 5GR.. just isn't.

When you say this, about HOU: "the defense didn't finish high statistically. It was at the time we faced them no worse than midrange." I suspect you simply don't know what you are talking about here. The D was 31st. We faced them in January in the next to last week of the season. You think they went from "midrange" to 31st in the span of a week? Get real.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Okay, so my statement above is on what I know about SHANAHAN, not the QB. It doesn't matter if Jesus of Nazarath was his QB. If the starting guy goes nearly half a season playing badly, and we're losing, he's going to go ahead and put in someone else. Remember, Shanahan was one game away from benching Jimmy G in 2021, according to both rumors and what he alluded to himself.

Hahaha

I don't doubt Kyle always puts his QBs in a position to succeed. It when the plays breakdown, guys around don't execute, guys are hurt, and the QB doesn't step up and put the team on there back to take over a game…that's been the issue.

Originally posted by 49ers81:
Well, that's kind of disingenuous.

2017 He came in late in the season and took over for the QB's who had been mostly ineffective or injured. Went 5-0
2018 He came into camp as the unquestioned starter. Who else was on the roster that the team hadn't already decided he was better than? Then he got hurt
2019 Same question as above who was on the roster for him to compete with? Then he helped the team get to the Super Bowl
2020 Same question as above. Then he gets hurt again, along with several other starters. Team goes 6-10. What other QB on the roster was as good as him.
2021 They draft Lance. Kyle states flat out that Lance would have a hard time beating Jimmy out, if anyone it's Kyle who keeps it from being a true competition.
But no serious person could believe that Lance would have beaten Jimmy out that year in a fair fight.
2022 Lance is handed the job without having done a single thing to earn it beyond being drafted #3 and the fact that Jimmy was coming off an injury and the team was trying to move on from him anyway. Based on George Kittle's recent comments, it seems to me, if that camp had been a straight up competition there is a legitimate question as to whether or not Lance would have come out on top then either. Lucky for them they decided to keep Jimmy around for one more year and, once again, he helped get them to the NFC Championship game.

If anything, it was Lance who was handed the job without having to compete for it. Now he's in a situation where he has to compete just to remain a viable option for the job. It will be up to him to show what he can do,

Jimmy got handed $125M after 5 games lol. Nothing disingenuous about that. He was the highest paid player at one point. They most certainly did not have to do that. They could have tagged him and see where it went from there.

there wasn't a legit competition for him ever. Not even when Lance came in his rookie yr. Jimmy was the starter and Lance got backup reps all though camp.

Most high end draft picks, especially at QB get the job. You draft a QB top 3 (move up), You're stating he's your dude. Not he has to compete to be the dude with whomever is still on the roster.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
lol now you are comping a pick 3 overall to a round 3
(this referring to HOU drafting 3 overall and us drafting rnd 3 DB)

i think net yds allowed per pass play is a pretty good judge of pass D, yet here you are, arguing in favor of some crap HOU pass D, cuz you want to spin it. We get it NY you are driving the TL train, that doesn't mean you have to fabricate stories about HOU having some pass D to reckon with, that's not reality as of 2021.. maybe now with their high end young guys drafted in 2022. Pitre seems a stud.

DAL imo, one of the most fearsome Ds in football, crazy team speed up front, ballers in coverage, high end coaching, depth, you name it, one of the most feared rushers in the game also. That was night and day when BP was facing them in postseason. I really liked that performance from BP vs DAL. TLs too in his HOU game. But I don't equate those Ds.

How about spending $85M on a passer rusher. How about spending $14M per on a DB? Drafting Drake Jackson etc etc love how you leave that out lol. Shocker. Crazy the Texans moved up for the best player in the draft lol.

You call me out for finding a stat that backs up my point. Well what the f**k are you doing right now?! you don't even know what DVOA is and yet you try to argue it lol. You toss around QB rating and you don't even know what the stat is or how it comes about.

If you actually paid attention you'd see I'm not driving any train. You're so butthurt he didn't turn into a MVP after 30 passing attempts, that you get mad at someone else who has SAID all they want to see is him actually fail before labeling him anything. Small samples sizes. You like others are so premature in your stances. I mean that's you in here.

Your debates lack SO MUCH objectivity, it's pointless to even talk to you in here. So I'm done my man. Feel free to comment on my post, I will not be having any more discussions with you. Not until you can have an objective conversation.

You post with so much objectivity that up becomes down, good becomes bad, and crap pass Ds become good.. I fear what more of your objectivity will bring

like a box of chocolates

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
The point of mentioning Houston is that people who hate Lance for "reasons" (most because they are jilted Jimmy fantasizers) is that it's disingenuous to try to knock Lance's very good second half performance simply because the defense didn't finish high statistically. It was at the time we faced them no worse than midrange. Lance played well, PERIOD. There are NO F-ING QUALIFICATIONS NEEDED. He. PLAYED. WELL. End of discussion.

Why can't the former Jimmy cultists just give credit where credit is due? It's as bad as the people saying Purdy played badly against Dallas. Defenses like Dallas make guys throw multiple picks or take multiple sacks. Both played well.

I brought up Houston in a different thread. It wasn't even in here (I believe). all the comments were Houston was dog s**t and we could have played insurance salesmen off the street. You know anything to diminish the thought of Lance actually playing well.

so I looked up to see what their real DVOA was and it was 14th in pass D. I'm not allowed to bring up the rushing O of this team with Lance (got yelled at for talking about a Lance lead offense avg over 15 yards per vs Seattle before his injury).

Some posters like to twist comments to fit a narrative because that's all they got. s**t all we heard about was QB rating with Sam. Or go look at Brock's stats…you can't look at Lance's stats from the game and say he didn't play well. UNLESS you makeup some weird standard like "needs to be good for at least 3 QRs" and if that's the case that should be applied for everyone.

All of it is silly…small ass sample size for both QBs.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Let me just say this to both sides of this argument:

(1) The Texans defense when we played them last was better than their raw stats indicate. Bad offense makes your defense worse, and they were the 32nd best offense.

(2) The Cowboys defense last year was also better than their statistics indicate. Their pass rush in particular. That was a great defense .Absolutely on par with our defense. The fact that Brock didn't cost us is remarkable. He remained quite poised in the face of maybe the second best pass rush (we had the best pass rusher, but the Eagles and Cowboys had better team pass rush, IMHO; they were tied with the Eagles at 52% pass rush win rate. We were only 46%).

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/34536376/2022-nfl-pass-rushing-run-stopping-blocking-leaderboard-win-rate-rankings-top-players-teams

One of Brock's "near interception" I keep seeing posted here was a tipped pass. The kid played very well. He missed a few things, sure. Was late a couple times, yeah. But he avoided the game-losing mistake. We lost by two scores if Jimmy is our QB in that game.

.
.

So, both sides of this Trey v. Brock argument are underestimating how good the other side's QB is. Trey is not trash, and Brock is not just a lucky one hit wonder.

Great post. I don't even understand why there is a "Trey vs. Brock" argument. It's silly. Clearly right now Brock is better and is the starter. If Trey gets his chance, we root for him too. It's not that hard.

Originally posted by riverrunzthruit:
like a box of chocolates

Bless your hearts you guys try so hard. Not an objective bone in either of your bodies. Same goes for football intellect. Have a great weekend