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Javon Kinlaw is a Jet!-Pick #14, 2020 NFL Draft.

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Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Colts? LOL. The GM who bought a 3T and drafted a HOF G to start his rebuild? Odd...almost like he values the trenches.

Great. Let me know when we draft and develop one of those guys. Year 7? 8?

Yet the Colts OL was terrible in 2021 as a group by your standards.

I'd probably agree with you there. Sounds like they've still got some work to do there. He's been there since 2017. That's 6 off seasons to build up those lines. No excuses for Ballard. It's not like they didn't have a gazillion dollars in cap space too to start.
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Same old discussion.
Originally posted by SFrush:
Same old discussion.

Yup...how healthy is he? LOL
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by SFrush:
Same old discussion.

Yup...how healthy is he? LOL

Not what I'm talking about.

The value of Guards versus DT's being rehashed in this thread over and over is getting old.
Originally posted by SFrush:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by SFrush:
Same old discussion.

Yup...how healthy is he? LOL

Not what I'm talking about.

The value of Guards versus DT's being rehashed in this thread over and over is getting old.

Lol. Yeah, somehow that filtrates into everything.
Originally posted by SFrush:
Not what I'm talking about.

The value of Guards versus DT's being rehashed in this thread over and over is getting old.

League tells you who's more valued by contracts. All the evidence necessary.
[ Edited by 9ers4eva on Jul 23, 2022 at 6:36 PM ]
Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Originally posted by SFrush:
Not what I'm talking about.

The value of Guards versus DT's being rehashed in this thread over and over is getting old.

League tells you who's more valued by contracts. All the evidence necessary.

I think he'd like to move off this topic in here. LOL
  • Giedi
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 33,371
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by NCommand:
You still don't get this concept. Shocker. When I say DL are a dime a dozen, it means their market is massively oversarurated so you can find a massive FA pool, it's cheap, former first round picks are available always, etc. Dudes like Kinlaw and Buckner and so many other DT's don't move the needle in a passing league anymore. We actually got better in run defense without Buckner AND Kinlaw. Case in point. Spend resources elsewhere.

The extreme opposite is the OL pool. There's very few and they rarely hit the market except via trade. Laken Tomlinson was the #1 FA and he got $13M APY. Perfect example.

And I noted this before we picked Kinlaw and it was why I was OK with the trade for Buckner. Their production can be replaced by throwing cheap DT's in rotation at it and a lot of that will be former 1-3rd round picks with KK coaching them up.

It has nothing to do with G's blocking DL. LMAO

Dude, I usually at least understand where you're coming from, but saying that having a top end DT doesn't "move the needle" is laughable. Pressure up the middle is, and always has been detrimental to the passing game.

We're talking team building and where you can cut corners some to add more resources elsewhere. DL is it esp. DT. We didn't have Buckner nor Kinlaw and got better at run defense. Think about that. And pass rush? KK is simply moving DE's like Key and Hyder inside to give you that. As long as you have Bosa, AA and another ER, you don't need to throw massive high end resources inside. More hybrids. More rotation. KK is the key as is the W9.

Just my quick take on the subject of skimping on the defense. In a pass happy NFL, I'd skimp on the LB's vs the DLine. Now we have awesome LB's, but we haven't drafted any since 2019 I believe. I think LB's aren't as necessary in primarily pass defenses. I'd rather have a DB instead of a LB in coverage. This is of course, if the opposing offense *passes.* Now if the opposing offense runs, then this defense will get run over - unless you run blitz, and the 1.5 gap defense, is a run blitz scheme in my opinion.
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by NCommand:
You still don't get this concept. Shocker. When I say DL are a dime a dozen, it means their market is massively oversarurated so you can find a massive FA pool, it's cheap, former first round picks are available always, etc. Dudes like Kinlaw and Buckner and so many other DT's don't move the needle in a passing league anymore. We actually got better in run defense without Buckner AND Kinlaw. Case in point. Spend resources elsewhere.

The extreme opposite is the OL pool. There's very few and they rarely hit the market except via trade. Laken Tomlinson was the #1 FA and he got $13M APY. Perfect example.

And I noted this before we picked Kinlaw and it was why I was OK with the trade for Buckner. Their production can be replaced by throwing cheap DT's in rotation at it and a lot of that will be former 1-3rd round picks with KK coaching them up.

It has nothing to do with G's blocking DL. LMAO

Dude, I usually at least understand where you're coming from, but saying that having a top end DT doesn't "move the needle" is laughable. Pressure up the middle is, and always has been detrimental to the passing game.

We're talking team building and where you can cut corners some to add more resources elsewhere. DL is it esp. DT. We didn't have Buckner nor Kinlaw and got better at run defense. Think about that. And pass rush? KK is simply moving DE's like Key and Hyder inside to give you that. As long as you have Bosa, AA and another ER, you don't need to throw massive high end resources inside. More hybrids. More rotation. KK is the key as is the W9.

Just my quick take on the subject of skimping on the defense. In a pass happy NFL, I'd skimp on the LB's vs the DLine. Now we have awesome LB's, but we haven't drafted any since 2019 I believe. I think LB's aren't as necessary in primarily pass defenses. I'd rather have a DB instead of a LB in coverage. This is of course, if the opposing offense *passes.* Now if the opposing offense runs, then this defense will get run over - unless you run blitz, and the 1.5 gap defense, is a run blitz scheme in my opinion.

Actually yeah, that's one area they've clearly skimmed on in plain sight. Greenlaw is a 5th rounder and Azeez and DFF are UDFA's...former S's. The rest are just special teams. More in the pipeline. In short, they're already doing that.

^ I did clarify above later that that doesn't mean you don't draft Bosa; just, you don't need to go 15 deep with 1st-3rd rounders + FA's who have already been successful here. Just a tad more balance instead of being so top heavy and bottom heavy.
  • Giedi
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 33,371
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by NCommand:
You still don't get this concept. Shocker. When I say DL are a dime a dozen, it means their market is massively oversarurated so you can find a massive FA pool, it's cheap, former first round picks are available always, etc. Dudes like Kinlaw and Buckner and so many other DT's don't move the needle in a passing league anymore. We actually got better in run defense without Buckner AND Kinlaw. Case in point. Spend resources elsewhere.

The extreme opposite is the OL pool. There's very few and they rarely hit the market except via trade. Laken Tomlinson was the #1 FA and he got $13M APY. Perfect example.

And I noted this before we picked Kinlaw and it was why I was OK with the trade for Buckner. Their production can be replaced by throwing cheap DT's in rotation at it and a lot of that will be former 1-3rd round picks with KK coaching them up.

It has nothing to do with G's blocking DL. LMAO

Dude, I usually at least understand where you're coming from, but saying that having a top end DT doesn't "move the needle" is laughable. Pressure up the middle is, and always has been detrimental to the passing game.

We're talking team building and where you can cut corners some to add more resources elsewhere. DL is it esp. DT. We didn't have Buckner nor Kinlaw and got better at run defense. Think about that. And pass rush? KK is simply moving DE's like Key and Hyder inside to give you that. As long as you have Bosa, AA and another ER, you don't need to throw massive high end resources inside. More hybrids. More rotation. KK is the key as is the W9.

Just my quick take on the subject of skimping on the defense. In a pass happy NFL, I'd skimp on the LB's vs the DLine. Now we have awesome LB's, but we haven't drafted any since 2019 I believe. I think LB's aren't as necessary in primarily pass defenses. I'd rather have a DB instead of a LB in coverage. This is of course, if the opposing offense *passes.* Now if the opposing offense runs, then this defense will get run over - unless you run blitz, and the 1.5 gap defense, is a run blitz scheme in my opinion.

Actually yeah, that's one area they've clearly skimmed on in plain sight. Greenlaw is a 5th rounder and Azeez and DFF are UDFA's...former S's. The rest are just special teams. More in the pipeline. In short, they're already doing that.

^ I did clarify above later that that doesn't mean you don't draft Bosa; just, you don't need to go 15 deep with 1st-3rd rounders + FA's who have already been successful here. Just a tad more balance instead of being so top heavy and bottom heavy.

I think the imbalance you see is due to Kyle's confidence bordering on arrogance. He does pride himself in his ability to coach every position on the offense. I think he's confident enough in his ability coach up average OLine players to good, good players to great, and great players to hall of fame (or so it seems) and I think that may be the reason he's gotten so many day 3 picks vs day 1 and day 2 OLine picks. I think he has good reason to be confident though, but I can see that it could easily slide into over-confidence like putting Compton and Brunskill on the OLine vs getting a Banks or Burford, level talent. Hope that has changed now, considering the 2022 draft and hopefully in the future drafts.
Originally posted by Giedi:
I think the imbalance you see is due to Kyle's confidence bordering on arrogance. He does pride himself in his ability to coach every position on the offense. I think he's confident enough in his ability coach up average OLine players to good, good players to great, and great players to hall of fame (or so it seems) and I think that may be the reason he's gotten so many day 3 picks vs day 1 and day 2 OLine picks. I think he has good reason to be confident though, but I can see that it could easily slide into over-confidence like putting Compton and Brunskill on the OLine vs getting a Banks or Burford, level talent. Hope that has changed now, considering the 2022 draft and hopefully in the future drafts.

Hear hear. I concur
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by NCommand:
You still don't get this concept. Shocker. When I say DL are a dime a dozen, it means their market is massively oversarurated so you can find a massive FA pool, it's cheap, former first round picks are available always, etc. Dudes like Kinlaw and Buckner and so many other DT's don't move the needle in a passing league anymore. We actually got better in run defense without Buckner AND Kinlaw. Case in point. Spend resources elsewhere.

The extreme opposite is the OL pool. There's very few and they rarely hit the market except via trade. Laken Tomlinson was the #1 FA and he got $13M APY. Perfect example.

And I noted this before we picked Kinlaw and it was why I was OK with the trade for Buckner. Their production can be replaced by throwing cheap DT's in rotation at it and a lot of that will be former 1-3rd round picks with KK coaching them up.

It has nothing to do with G's blocking DL. LMAO

Dude, I usually at least understand where you're coming from, but saying that having a top end DT doesn't "move the needle" is laughable. Pressure up the middle is, and always has been detrimental to the passing game.

We're talking team building and where you can cut corners some to add more resources elsewhere. DL is it esp. DT. We didn't have Buckner nor Kinlaw and got better at run defense. Think about that. And pass rush? KK is simply moving DE's like Key and Hyder inside to give you that. As long as you have Bosa, AA and another ER, you don't need to throw massive high end resources inside. More hybrids. More rotation. KK is the key as is the W9.

Just my quick take on the subject of skimping on the defense. In a pass happy NFL, I'd skimp on the LB's vs the DLine. Now we have awesome LB's, but we haven't drafted any since 2019 I believe. I think LB's aren't as necessary in primarily pass defenses. I'd rather have a DB instead of a LB in coverage. This is of course, if the opposing offense *passes.* Now if the opposing offense runs, then this defense will get run over - unless you run blitz, and the 1.5 gap defense, is a run blitz scheme in my opinion.

Actually yeah, that's one area they've clearly skimmed on in plain sight. Greenlaw is a 5th rounder and Azeez and DFF are UDFA's...former S's. The rest are just special teams. More in the pipeline. In short, they're already doing that.

^ I did clarify above later that that doesn't mean you don't draft Bosa; just, you don't need to go 15 deep with 1st-3rd rounders + FA's who have already been successful here. Just a tad more balance instead of being so top heavy and bottom heavy.

I think the imbalance you see is due to Kyle's confidence bordering on arrogance. He does pride himself in his ability to coach every position on the offense. I think he's confident enough in his ability coach up average OLine players to good, good players to great, and great players to hall of fame (or so it seems) and I think that may be the reason he's gotten so many day 3 picks vs day 1 and day 2 OLine picks. I think he has good reason to be confident though, but I can see that it could easily slide into over-confidence like putting Compton and Brunskill on the OLine vs getting a Banks or Burford, level talent. Hope that has changed now, considering the 2022 draft and hopefully in the future drafts.

Kyle and Lynch have both said you need legit talent on defense because you're constantly reading and reacting to the offense.

DL is the backbone of this defense always will be. Our DL is about to get multiple DC's head coaching gigs.

I don't see anything arrogant about how this team has been built. Shoot for all the DL talk, Kyle has drafted a ton of WRs and brought in a bunch of guys via FA. That's a position he is confident in more than any position on the team IMO. He's spent up for it regardless.

The OL is built on skill set and is scheme specific. You don't need to burn top picks on OZ guards. Since 2019 they've shown they're willing to do more than OZ and I expect that to continue (hence the top 50 pick on Banks). They clearly value OTs there's no denying that. Center I thought would be a higher priority. We will see there.

I agree they've gotten way better play out of guys like Brunskill/Compton/Skule/Garland then anyone thought...I would say Banks/Burford/Moore are more talent then them so let's see them develop those guys now.
Originally posted by elguapo:
Originally posted by Giedi:
I think the imbalance you see is due to Kyle's confidence bordering on arrogance. He does pride himself in his ability to coach every position on the offense. I think he's confident enough in his ability coach up average OLine players to good, good players to great, and great players to hall of fame (or so it seems) and I think that may be the reason he's gotten so many day 3 picks vs day 1 and day 2 OLine picks. I think he has good reason to be confident though, but I can see that it could easily slide into over-confidence like putting Compton and Brunskill on the OLine vs getting a Banks or Burford, level talent. Hope that has changed now, considering the 2022 draft and hopefully in the future drafts.

Hear hear. I concur

Bingo! "I can work around it." But he shouldn't have too...
Fully expect Kinlaw to get the Bosa treatment and rehab for all of training camp. He is about two months behind Bosa on the acl repair time line.
Originally posted by Izyniner:
Fully expect Kinlaw to get the Bosa treatment and rehab for all of training camp. He is about two months behind Bosa on the acl repair time line.

Agreed. Cleared for practice is very different from full go and practicing 100% every day.

Let's hope MM, Azeez, and Kinlaw get there soon so they can get into football shape.
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