Scheme discussion: Could Patriots use SB53 game plan against 49ers in the near future?

Originally posted by mitpdub:

This is exactly what I heard happened and Goff was screwed. I think Jimmy G is better at improvising and quick reading and letting it go than Goff.

Goff's main issue is that he became overly reliant on McVay to read defenses and do all the thinking for him. When the Patriots took that away, he predictably looked completely out of sorts, getting the football out late or not seeing wide open receivers altogether.


I think you'll see more teams challenging him in that fashion, forcing him to make his reads more quickly and without a helping hand from his daddy.

Originally posted by iLLEST209ER:

After watching the super bowl I am convinced that Kyle is MUCH better at scheming players open.

This is precisely my thoughts as well.

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
CBS

This is sad. The second part of the article.

The missed TD by the Rams at the back of the end zone wasn't the first time they ran that play in the SB. They ran it earlier in the game, and Cooks got open the same way.

But Goff still late throwing the ball lol

Ouch. I watched both the plays and they were identical. It was the same offensive formation against the same coverage. Hoodie gets props for his defensive gameplan, but there are plays in a game that a QB has to make and on both occasions, Goff needs to make that play. It was on a staple play of the Kyle/McVay offense, the Yankee concept. I'm positive the Rams rep this play many times through out the season. For Goff to miss the read twice is terrible. I guess he didn't miss it the second time, just really really late to recognize it.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
CBS

This is sad. The second part of the article.

The missed TD by the Rams at the back of the end zone wasn't the first time they ran that play in the SB. They ran it earlier in the game, and Cooks got open the same way.

But Goff still late throwing the ball lol

Ouch. I watched both the plays and they were identical. It was the same offensive formation against the same coverage. Hoodie gets props for his defensive gameplan, but there are plays in a game that a QB has to make and on both occasions, Goff needs to make that play. It was on a staple play of the Kyle/McVay offense, the Yankee concept. I'm positive the Rams rep this play many times through out the season. For Goff to miss the read twice is terrible. I guess he didn't miss it the second time, just really really late to recognize it.

Two things:

1. Brian Flores is getting credit for calling the plays in the SB. As far as game plan, I'm hearing that too, but not all BB I'm told...

2. I saw some video that was saying that because of the way the Patriots showed their coverage, it made Goff go through his progressions instead of focusing on hitting Cooks over the top. That's why the throw was late.

End of the day, could you imagine this was the 49ers in the SB and we would go years debating on if it was Jimmy's fault for not hitting one throw?? Man, that's brutal.

Crazy to think as much as I hated SB 47, I'd rather lose in that fashion than the one the Rams lost in.

Originally posted by JTsBiggestFan:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:

CBS

This is sad. The second part of the article.

The missed TD by the Rams at the back of the end zone wasn't the first time they ran that play in the SB. They ran it earlier in the game, and Cooks got open the same way.

But Goff still late throwing the ball lol

Ouch. I watched both the plays and they were identical. It was the same offensive formation against the same coverage. Hoodie gets props for his defensive gameplan, but there are plays in a game that a QB has to make and on both occasions, Goff needs to make that play. It was on a staple play of the Kyle/McVay offense, the Yankee concept. I'm positive the Rams rep this play many times through out the season. For Goff to miss the read twice is terrible. I guess he didn't miss it the second time, just really really late to recognize it.

Two things:

1. Brian Flores is getting credit for calling the plays in the SB. As far as game plan, I'm hearing that too, but not all BB I'm told...

2. I saw some video that was saying that because of the way the Patriots showed their coverage, it made Goff go through his progressions instead of focusing on hitting Cooks over the top. That's why the throw was late.

End of the day, could you imagine this was the 49ers in the SB and we would go years debating on if it was Jimmy's fault for not hitting one throw?? Man, that's brutal.

Crazy to think as much as I hated SB 47, I'd rather lose in that fashion than the one the Rams lost in.

I don't think the Pats ever confused Goff so much as put just enough doubt in his confidence reading their defense by changing the fronts. Causing Goff to take that extra half second after the snap, to make sure what he was seeing was true. Slow down his confidence and read, enough to give the Pats defense a chance. Goff still made some good throws, but overall he was tentative and inconsistent on where he should go with the ball quickly.

NE did nothing offense wise until Brady hit this play iirc 3x in a row:

Originally posted by JTsBiggestFan:
Two things:
1. Brian Flores is getting credit for calling the plays in the SB. As far as game plan, I'm hearing that too, but not all BB I'm told...
2. I saw some video that was saying that because of the way the Patriots showed their coverage, it made Goff go through his progressions instead of focusing on hitting Cooks over the top. That's why the throw was late.
End of the day, could you imagine this was the 49ers in the SB and we would go years debating on if it was Jimmy's fault for not hitting one throw?? Man, that's brutal.
Crazy to think as much as I hated SB 47, I'd rather lose in that fashion than the one the Rams lost in.

It's a high low read and the Post route is the first read. On the first play Goff looks at Cooks on the Post but pulls it back. NE shows single high presnap.


Because of LA condensed formation, rotating to different coverge is easier. NE rotates to Quarters as Goff turns his back to execute the playaction. With only two routes coming out, the read for the safeties are easy. If WR breaks inside the safety matches. If WR breaks outside the CB matches. If WR vertical, then double team bracket.


Boundary safety (high-low'ed) matches the crosser opening up the Post.


Let it rip and place it to the middle of the field. Goff scared.


So easy Beathard can do it. (This is really to show how Quarters should play this route combo. Goodwin just beats them both while bracketed.)

.


JT I don't know what that video meant by, "it made Goff go through his progressions instead of focusing on hitting Cooks". The first read is Cooks on this play. Goff was poo here. Could have been "Hoodie's defense blow's a coverage", but instead, it's the D play of the game.

This is about how NE defended LA's run game. There's a bunch of snippets linked from various articles - it's all a lead up to why I think this tactic will not work to defend SF's run game.
From the article that linked in the OP:
Belichick featured a second schematic wrinkle: 6-1 fronts. New England's outside linebackers aligned up on the line of scrimmage, taking away the edges that L.A.'s foundational outside-zone runs aim to exploit.

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/2/4/18211043/the-starting-11-patriots-rams-bill-belichick-wade-phillips-defense-super-bowl-liii (about the SB)
Rather than have inside linebacker Dont'a Hightower (MLB) head downhill at the first sign of run action, Belichick and Flores instructed Hightower to react to the run in a more controlled way; he stuck to the middle of the field, which slowed play and allowed him to maintain his coverage responsibilities on play-action throws. That hesitation was possible only because the Patriots had devoted so many bodies to their defensive front.

This is a good article that shows just how heavily McVay plays 11 personnel (highest in NFL 77%):
https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/1/10/18177030/rams-sean-mcvay-jared-goff-todd-gurley-11-personnel
The shift to this version of the 11 personnel strategy didn't happen right away. Over their first three games of the 2017 campaign, the Rams used the grouping on just 58 percent of their snaps. But during weeks 4 and 5, that figure jumped to 74 percent. From weeks 6 through 10, it climbed to 78 percent. And finally, from Week 10 on, it jumped to 94 percent, completing the unit's transformation into the offense we see now.

11 personnel vs 6-1 front. The OP article stated that Hoodie did this to defend the outside zone run. GCamper mentioned earlier, the adjustment is to run up the middle. There's only one second level defender. Bust through and it's a nice gain.


NE is in an Over front with their DL. OLBs on the line.


The red defender is there to protect against the jet sweep. There's no way that the other WR (behind the TE) is going to lead block up the middle on 54.


DL holds their ground and there's the RB sees minimal room up the A and B gaps. +3

While there are benefits of this (exclusive 11 personnel), explained in the article, one thing it sacrifices is diversity in the run game. To bring this back to the 49ers, one huge difference between what Kyle does and what McVay does is use of the fullback.
Here is Hoodie himself talking about what the FB brings to the run game:
http://blog.masslive.com/patriots/2018/11/bill_belichick_loves_fullbacks.html
"But whether he carries the ball or doesn't carry the ball, the blocking angles from the backfield are different from what they are from the line of scrimmage."
To sum it up, he's talking about how a fullback gives the versatility to move around, giving you an extra blocker to throw at the point of attack.

More Hoodie (from an article that is no longer found online):
"By having them in the backfield (fullback, 21 personnel), you can create that same four-man surface or three-man surface after the snap so the defense doesn't know where the four-man surface or three-man surface is. The fullback has to –- he can build that from the backfield.
"And then there are also, let's say, a greater variety of blocking schemes with the fullback in the backfield because he can block different guys and come from different angles. He's (FB) not always behind the quarterback. He could be offset one way or the other and create different blocking schemes and angles that it's harder to get from the line of scrimmage.

SF led the league using 21 personnel at 54%.
SF tries to show a balanced look with the FB to one side, TE on the other. There's no tipping off of which is strongside/weakside. Which side is the four man surface?


Counter step by HB.



4 man surface (strongside) is the right side of the OL. The FB creating flexibility in the run game and adds a gap to the right side OL. Strengthen runs in the box.


QB tendency to bootleg holds the blue edge defender.


+7


All this to say that what Hoodie did against the Rams to defend the run game, would not work against the 49ers. Once NE went to a 6-1, the Rams had to run up the middle. But their lack of a true FB prevented them from getting help once NE's DL was able to hold their ground. Not saying Hoodie can't defend SF's run game, just not with this 6-1 adjustment. SF has a more diverse run game than the Rams. The use of a FB is a strength to run between the tackles. NE had the 2nd highest % at using a FB.

Originally posted by thl408:

This is about how NE defended LA's run game. There's a bunch of snippets linked from various articles - it's all a lead up to why I think this tactic will not work to defend SF's run game.
From the article that linked in the OP:
Belichick featured a second schematic wrinkle: 6-1 fronts. New England's outside linebackers aligned up on the line of scrimmage, taking away the edges that L.A.'s foundational outside-zone runs aim to exploit.

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/2/4/18211043/the-starting-11-patriots-rams-bill-belichick-wade-phillips-defense-super-bowl-liii (about the SB)
Rather than have inside linebacker Dont'a Hightower (MLB) head downhill at the first sign of run action, Belichick and Flores instructed Hightower to react to the run in a more controlled way; he stuck to the middle of the field, which slowed play and allowed him to maintain his coverage responsibilities on play-action throws. That hesitation was possible only because the Patriots had devoted so many bodies to their defensive front.

This is a good article that shows just how heavily McVay plays 11 personnel (highest in NFL 77%):
https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/1/10/18177030/rams-sean-mcvay-jared-goff-todd-gurley-11-personnel
The shift to this version of the 11 personnel strategy didn't happen right away. Over their first three games of the 2017 campaign, the Rams used the grouping on just 58 percent of their snaps. But during weeks 4 and 5, that figure jumped to 74 percent. From weeks 6 through 10, it climbed to 78 percent. And finally, from Week 10 on, it jumped to 94 percent, completing the unit's transformation into the offense we see now.

11 personnel vs 6-1 front. The OP article stated that Hoodie did this to defend the outside zone run. GCamper mentioned earlier, the adjustment is to run up the middle. There's only one second level defender. Bust through and it's a nice gain.


NE is in an Over front with their DL. OLBs on the line.


The red defender is there to protect against the jet sweep. There's no way that the other WR (behind the TE) is going to lead block up the middle on 54.


DL holds their ground and there's the RB sees minimal room up the A and B gaps. +3

While there are benefits of this (exclusive 11 personnel), explained in the article, one thing it sacrifices is diversity in the run game. To bring this back to the 49ers, one huge difference between what Kyle does and what McVay does is use of the fullback.
Here is Hoodie himself talking about what the FB brings to the run game:
http://blog.masslive.com/patriots/2018/11/bill_belichick_loves_fullbacks.html
"But whether he carries the ball or doesn't carry the ball, the blocking angles from the backfield are different from what they are from the line of scrimmage."
To sum it up, he's talking about how a fullback gives the versatility to move around, giving you an extra blocker to throw at the point of attack.

More Hoodie (from an article that is no longer found online):
"By having them in the backfield (fullback, 21 personnel), you can create that same four-man surface or three-man surface after the snap so the defense doesn't know where the four-man surface or three-man surface is. The fullback has to –- he can build that from the backfield.
"And then there are also, let's say, a greater variety of blocking schemes with the fullback in the backfield because he can block different guys and come from different angles. He's (FB) not always behind the quarterback. He could be offset one way or the other and create different blocking schemes and angles that it's harder to get from the line of scrimmage.

SF led the league using 21 personnel at 54%.
SF tries to show a balanced look with the FB to one side, TE on the other. There's no tipping off of which is strongside/weakside. Which side is the four man surface?


Counter step by HB.



4 man surface (strongside) is the right side of the OL. The FB creating flexibility in the run game and adds a gap to the right side OL. Strengthen runs in the box.


QB tendency to bootleg holds the blue edge defender.


+7


All this to say that what Hoodie did against the Rams to defend the run game, would not work against the 49ers. Once NE went to a 6-1, the Rams had to run up the middle. But their lack of a true FB prevented them from getting help once NE's DL was able to hold their ground. Not saying Hoodie can't defend SF's run game, just not with this 6-1 adjustment. SF has a more diverse run game than the Rams. The use of a FB is a strength to run between the tackles. NE had the 2nd highest % at using a FB.

Great breakdown.

What I think a lot of people get hung on is that LA runs an OZ run scheme and so do we and so its disconcerting.

However, not all OZ is the same and theres a reason why Shanny paid so much for Juice. With that FB it adds so much variety to what the OZ can do. You can attack strong side, you can use it to create a balanced surface, you can come back with counters, split zone or toss plays along with, what we've seen, a guy that can enter the pass game and also fo vertical.

I will take Shanny's scheme 10/10 times over McVay.

Originally posted by OnTheClock:

Originally posted by iLLEST209ER:

After watching the super bowl I am convinced that Kyle is MUCH better at scheming players open.

This is precisely my thoughts as well.

When you're giving someone your secret family recipe for the best fry chicken or whatever. Of course you're going to hold back that secret ingredient that makes it the best for yourself. Because that person can make it better and you'll no longer have the best fry chicken. McVay is a student of KS's offense, he added some paprika and some garlic salt to make his own little twist, but at the end of the day his oil was still too hot in the SB that he got burned by BB. Shanahan is the original and still the best coach of the two, IMO.

Originally posted by 808niner4lyphe:

Originally posted by OnTheClock:

Originally posted by iLLEST209ER:

After watching the super bowl I am convinced that Kyle is MUCH better at scheming players open.

This is precisely my thoughts as well.

When you're giving someone your secret family recipe for the best fry chicken or whatever. Of course you're going to hold back that secret ingredient that makes it the best for yourself. Because that person can make it better and you'll no longer have the best fry chicken. McVay is a student of KS's offense, he added some paprika and some garlic salt to make his own little twist, but at the end of the day his oil was still too hot in the SB that he got burned by BB. Shanahan is the original and still the best coach of the two, IMO.

Agreed

Originally posted by thl408:

This is about how NE defended LA's run game. There's a bunch of snippets linked from various articles - it's all a lead up to why I think this tactic will not work to defend SF's run game.
From the article that linked in the OP:
Belichick featured a second schematic wrinkle: 6-1 fronts. New England's outside linebackers aligned up on the line of scrimmage, taking away the edges that L.A.'s foundational outside-zone runs aim to exploit.

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/2/4/18211043/the-starting-11-patriots-rams-bill-belichick-wade-phillips-defense-super-bowl-liii (about the SB)
Rather than have inside linebacker Dont'a Hightower (MLB) head downhill at the first sign of run action, Belichick and Flores instructed Hightower to react to the run in a more controlled way; he stuck to the middle of the field, which slowed play and allowed him to maintain his coverage responsibilities on play-action throws. That hesitation was possible only because the Patriots had devoted so many bodies to their defensive front.

This is a good article that shows just how heavily McVay plays 11 personnel (highest in NFL 77%):
https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/1/10/18177030/rams-sean-mcvay-jared-goff-todd-gurley-11-personnel
The shift to this version of the 11 personnel strategy didn't happen right away. Over their first three games of the 2017 campaign, the Rams used the grouping on just 58 percent of their snaps. But during weeks 4 and 5, that figure jumped to 74 percent. From weeks 6 through 10, it climbed to 78 percent. And finally, from Week 10 on, it jumped to 94 percent, completing the unit's transformation into the offense we see now.

11 personnel vs 6-1 front. The OP article stated that Hoodie did this to defend the outside zone run. GCamper mentioned earlier, the adjustment is to run up the middle. There's only one second level defender. Bust through and it's a nice gain.


NE is in an Over front with their DL. OLBs on the line.


The red defender is there to protect against the jet sweep. There's no way that the other WR (behind the TE) is going to lead block up the middle on 54.


DL holds their ground and there's the RB sees minimal room up the A and B gaps. 3

While there are benefits of this (exclusive 11 personnel), explained in the article, one thing it sacrifices is diversity in the run game. To bring this back to the 49ers, one huge difference between what Kyle does and what McVay does is use of the fullback.
Here is Hoodie himself talking about what the FB brings to the run game:
http://blog.masslive.com/patriots/2018/11/bill_belichick_loves_fullbacks.html
"But whether he carries the ball or doesn't carry the ball, the blocking angles from the backfield are different from what they are from the line of scrimmage."
To sum it up, he's talking about how a fullback gives the versatility to move around, giving you an extra blocker to throw at the point of attack.

More Hoodie (from an article that is no longer found online):
"By having them in the backfield (fullback, 21 personnel), you can create that same four-man surface or three-man surface after the snap so the defense doesn't know where the four-man surface or three-man surface is. The fullback has to –- he can build that from the backfield.
"And then there are also, let's say, a greater variety of blocking schemes with the fullback in the backfield because he can block different guys and come from different angles. He's (FB) not always behind the quarterback. He could be offset one way or the other and create different blocking schemes and angles that it's harder to get from the line of scrimmage.

SF led the league using 21 personnel at 54%.
SF tries to show a balanced look with the FB to one side, TE on the other. There's no tipping off of which is strongside/weakside. Which side is the four man surface?


Counter step by HB.



4 man surface (strongside) is the right side of the OL. The FB creating flexibility in the run game and adds a gap to the right side OL. Strengthen runs in the box.


QB tendency to bootleg holds the blue edge defender.


7


All this to say that what Hoodie did against the Rams to defend the run game, would not work against the 49ers. Once NE went to a 6-1, the Rams had to run up the middle. But their lack of a true FB prevented them from getting help once NE's DL was able to hold their ground. Not saying Hoodie can't defend SF's run game, just not with this 6-1 adjustment. SF has a more diverse run game than the Rams. The use of a FB is a strength to run between the tackles. NE had the 2nd highest % at using a FB.

That one sharpfootballstats.com had the rams usage of 11 personnel at over 87% and and said they passed out of 11 93%. However, that's actually down from what they were reporting during the season becaue I was watching it and it had them at 95%+ using 11 and that's why I would quoted that number. It wierd though because that site currently has teams with about 700 plays so it's not up to dAte. Perhaps they audit themselves in the off season.

Just watching the rams, it's seems like they basically use 11 the whole damn game and from it run only a couple of formations. It actually reminded me of Chip Kelly In terms of lack of formation variation.

Van Noy said the Rams didn't add anything new to their offense. Maybe 1 or 2 plays, but pretty much what they did all through the season.

Either a total case of ego trip on McVay or he was limited on what he could do with Goofy in control.

Can't just 'do what got you there' with one of the best defensive game grandmaster in BB. Eagles did it right way last year.

Originally posted by jonnydel:
Great breakdown.

What I think a lot of people get hung on is that LA runs an OZ run scheme and so do we and so its disconcerting.

However, not all OZ is the same and theres a reason why Shanny paid so much for Juice. With that FB it adds so much variety to what the OZ can do. You can attack strong side, you can use it to create a balanced surface, you can come back with counters, split zone or toss plays along with, what we've seen, a guy that can enter the pass game and also fo vertical.

I will take Shanny's scheme 10/10 times over McVay.

When it comes to what a team can do in the run game, that FB adds so much more than a WR, or even a second inline TE. The play I showed for LA had a WR coming across on a sift block, so in a way, he's playing the role of the "lead blocker" in the backfield. But that WR is never going to be leading through the hole (A/B/C gap) to block a LB head on. And that's why NE was able to spread their front wide, and sacrifice being thin (1 second level defender). With a FB in the backfield, no way a defense keeps their second level that thin.