Are Kyle/John building the 9ers the Rams way...or the PATS way?

Originally posted by kem99:

I have not read the WSJ article but based on how you've presented it, the answer is more like the Rams but not the parts you have focused on.
It shouldn't be like the Patriots because its Belichick and Brady that ultimately keep the Patriots at or near the top every year and its unrealistic to think the 49ers front office (or any other NFL front office) can build and duplicate their extended success, especially when you go back and look at the Patriot draft classes and come away wondering how they have continued their success while missing on so many players.
The Rams actually built through the draft, but had their progress stunted by terrible coaching (Jeff Fisher) of what turned out to be a good roster. That drafting, fixing Goff and benefiting from his contract allowed the Rams to then splurge in the short term with this year's free agent class while also trading away future top picks to acquire players to put them over the top. Peters didn't get "big bucks". He counted less than $2millon on their cap this year but goes up to over $9 million if they keep him next year. They inherited Talib's contract for $11 million this year but it drops down to $8 million next year. Suh got a high "make good" contract and probably isn't back since he will be looking for a larger deal. Goff's deal starts to escalate in year 5 (I'm assuming they pick up his option) and then they will have to start paying the full freight on him in 2021. The Rams will also be lacking some top picks over the next couple of years and are relying on their ability to hit on mid to late round picks. If they do that, they may be able to extend their window. If they don't the bill will come due for their approach in 2018.

Nice post. Here are a couple thots:

1. If ANYBODY can copy or pull off a PATS method of consistently staying on top, with the Brady/Bellichik combo who could it be? Well , how about the combo of the hand picked personally trained by BB of JimmyG and the #1 best OC in the league, Kyle? Granted they are not THE same but amazing how much they have in common. So, we do have a potential to become that perennial "at the SB" team. Granted, that's miles in the future, but still...it's there.

2. RAMs. Agree it is this yr or bust because they already got 6 or 7 guys over 10 mil, but also one Gurley is on a $60 mil deal, and they still have big paydays coming up for Darnold and Suh...plus Goff is just a couple yrs away from his massive payday.

PLUS...Rams have blown their wad with drafts next couple yr besides. So for them it is now or never.

Quite frankly, just like the 1 yr wonder Ravens super bowl, i never liked going all in for one yr and then...nothing. The wheels all come off. I get it...Rams are new back in town , new stadium and want to cement fans with a SB win. But if they do win, it gets way harder from now on out for them. And if they lose...unh oh. Then they are stuck...and fk**ed.

Hopefully we never go down that road, but with Paraag, i don't think that happens.


As for what i hope for here goes:

Kyle has shown that in two yrs he can make an O go, and JG hasn't played in much of that (only 7 1/2 games) .Just a guess, but maybe he is trying to build an O that can win without a D that has 11 all pros...or even 6 for all that matter. Maybe he is shooting for (in both FA and draft):

On D:

an ER (Bosa) or Q (which would mean a couple 2nd tier ERs also),

one more high quality LB plus another 2nd tier, and

1 all pro DB plus one high tier DB, and two 2nd tier DBs.

(Remember we have an overload of DTs, maybe 5 or 6 starters . Our DL would be truly impressive.)

On O:

1 all pro OG/C, plus yrly drafting of OGs to bring up thru the system.

1 young talented OT who needs coaching up...plus an OT to bring up thru the system every other yr

1 #1 WR.(altho i think this is overkill at "ball catchers")

If he were to do that right now, it would be interesting to see how he could do. Could he win a SB with that? IDK, but i bet he could come close. A lot depends on just how good Joe Woods is and if good as expected, then i would say we have a shot.

Again, just guessing, but with a decent (not great) D, kyle thinks he can beat anyone with his scheming and playcalling...and his O lacks only starter OG and (and OT next yr)...but he could play this yr without them. #1 WR? Sure be nice, but with Au jus, Pettis, Kittle, Jet, Goodwin, Brieda(plus any other RB), he has ample targets, plus he has TT coming back , maybe. All he really needs is QB protection and IF Richburg is healthy, fine. Otherwise, he needs OG and C.

And at that, it would be fascinating what he could do. Compared to what he has had it would seem like Christmas ...or Chanukah. Could he make a run with the above PLUS a full yr of healthy JG? Don't know but sure be fun to watch.

^^^ and this would be the Kyle way. Takeoff on the Brady/Bellichik way, but similarity would be stellar QB and best playcaller in the game. Add on a D with additions as above, and there you go...Kyle's way.

Originally posted by Jeepzilla:

What's option C?
I don't see 49ers resembling either.
There are 30 other teams out there and we resemble the worst 2, in fact we are one of the worst two, so I see very little semblance to either teams in the SB.

Very odd article when the Pats have been winning & going to SB's for last what, 18 years..
Last year, Philly added quite a bit of talent in FA and went and won the SB.

Also ignores the fact that the Pats have zero competition in conference and are usually guaranteed a playoff spot just by showing up.

Greatest NFL scam of all time.

Good point and an easy one to forget.

Originally posted by ninerfan4life:

This.

Originally posted by Young2Rice:

We are much closer to the Browns and Lions than these teams.

Closer to the Titans way ATM.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Young2Rice:
We are much closer to the Browns and Lions than these teams.

Closer to the Titans way ATM.

The Patriots and RAms have o lines that actually protect their QB. Lynch has done a lousy jobs assembling an o line. There isn't one thing he has done to warrant his job.

Originally posted by pdizo916:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Young2Rice:

We are much closer to the Browns and Lions than these teams.

Closer to the Titans way ATM.

The Patriots and RAms have o lines that actually protect their QB. Lynch has done a lousy jobs assembling an o line. There isn't one thing he has done to warrant his job.

Don't know how to re-emphasize this by saying "x2" or x1000", but as much as i like Kyle and want him here long term, he has GOT to protect his QBs. Not sure why but it seems like he doesn't mind his QBs takiing a beating each game, and some are way worse than others.

I get that kyle wants yet another "ball catcher", ie a #1 WR for his qB. All well and good....IF...IF ...he protects his QBs. He got a gift of JG and then doesn't take adequate means to protect him. Why? On the face of it that just seems silly . Others might say stupid, but i'll Just say silly. FR QB are not everyday commodities, and once you have one , he MUST be protected. Kyle has done dozens of wonderful things here and his potential is off the charts. But he gets a big FAIL when it comes to protecting his premier-most important-have-to-have-guy. No matter what else he does this yr, he better have his #1 guy protected ....and that means getting OGs and an OT in FA and draft.

ZBS is fantastic, no question. But for heaven sakes, get ZBS blockers that can also be great pass protectors. For a guy so smart who continues to overlook this ...it just doesnt' make sense. And this business of buying low rent guys (ok, $ 4 mil isn't low rent), or better said, lower paid guys with no great blocking hx...that has been a fail (Gilliam) and has to stop. If buying guys in FA, at least make sure the guy is a whiz bang at protecting his passer.

Don't know how many times i have posted similarly, but it goes way back. Pdiz is right, this is a just a glaring hole in kyle's Thinking or modus operandi. He has to change to make it front and center. Until he does, consider JG just being temporarily out there, just waiting for the next beating , one of which will end his career. One knee is enough . C'mon Kyle, do the right thing...protect your QB. #1WR is way down the list for JG. Protecting him is top of the list.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

Originally posted by kem99:
I have not read the WSJ article but based on how you've presented it, the answer is more like the Rams but not the parts you have focused on.
It shouldn't be like the Patriots because its Belichick and Brady that ultimately keep the Patriots at or near the top every year and its unrealistic to think the 49ers front office (or any other NFL front office) can build and duplicate their extended success, especially when you go back and look at the Patriot draft classes and come away wondering how they have continued their success while missing on so many players.
The Rams actually built through the draft, but had their progress stunted by terrible coaching (Jeff Fisher) of what turned out to be a good roster. That drafting, fixing Goff and benefiting from his contract allowed the Rams to then splurge in the short term with this year's free agent class while also trading away future top picks to acquire players to put them over the top. Peters didn't get "big bucks". He counted less than $2millon on their cap this year but goes up to over $9 million if they keep him next year. They inherited Talib's contract for $11 million this year but it drops down to $8 million next year. Suh got a high "make good" contract and probably isn't back since he will be looking for a larger deal. Goff's deal starts to escalate in year 5 (I'm assuming they pick up his option) and then they will have to start paying the full freight on him in 2021. The Rams will also be lacking some top picks over the next couple of years and are relying on their ability to hit on mid to late round picks. If they do that, they may be able to extend their window. If they don't the bill will come due for their approach in 2018.

Nice post. Here are a couple thots:

1. If ANYBODY can copy or pull off a PATS method of consistently staying on top, with the Brady/Bellichik combo who could it be? Well , how about the combo of the hand picked personally trained by BB of JimmyG and the #1 best OC in the league, Kyle? Granted they are not THE same but amazing how much they have in common. So, we do have a potential to become that perennial "at the SB" team. Granted, that's miles in the future, but still...it's there.

2. RAMs. Agree it is this yr or bust because they already got 6 or 7 guys over 10 mil, but also one Gurley is on a $60 mil deal, and they still have big paydays coming up for Darnold and Suh...plus Goff is just a couple yrs away from his massive payday.

PLUS...Rams have blown their wad with drafts next couple yr besides. So for them it is now or never.

Quite frankly, just like the 1 yr wonder Ravens super bowl, i never liked going all in for one yr and then...nothing. The wheels all come off. I get it...Rams are new back in town , new stadium and want to cement fans with a SB win. But if they do win, it gets way harder from now on out for them. And if they lose...unh oh. Then they are stuck...and fk**ed.

Hopefully we never go down that road, but with Paraag, i don't think that happens.

As for what i hope for here goes:

Kyle has shown that in two yrs he can make an O go, and JG hasn't played in much of that (only 7 1/2 games) .Just a guess, but maybe he is trying to build an O that can win without a D that has 11 all pros...or even 6 for all that matter. Maybe he is shooting for (in both FA and draft):

On D:

an ER (Bosa) or Q (which would mean a couple 2nd tier ERs also),

one more high quality LB plus another 2nd tier, and

1 all pro DB plus one high tier DB, and two 2nd tier DBs.

(Remember we have an overload of DTs, maybe 5 or 6 starters . Our DL would be truly impressive.)

On O:

1 all pro OG/C, plus yrly drafting of OGs to bring up thru the system.

1 young talented OT who needs coaching up...plus an OT to bring up thru the system every other yr

1 #1 WR.(altho i think this is overkill at "ball catchers")

If he were to do that right now, it would be interesting to see how he could do. Could he win a SB with that? IDK, but i bet he could come close. A lot depends on just how good Joe Woods is and if good as expected, then i would say we have a shot.

Again, just guessing, but with a decent (not great) D, kyle thinks he can beat anyone with his scheming and playcalling...and his O lacks only starter OG and (and OT next yr)...but he could play this yr without them. #1 WR? Sure be nice, but with Au jus, Pettis, Kittle, Jet, Goodwin, Brieda(plus any other RB), he has ample targets, plus he has TT coming back , maybe. All he really needs is QB protection and IF Richburg is healthy, fine. Otherwise, he needs OG and C.

And at that, it would be fascinating what he could do. Compared to what he has had it would seem like Christmas ...or Chanukah. Could he make a run with the above PLUS a full yr of healthy JG? Don't know but sure be fun to watch.

Solid post paso!

It looks like the Jed York way so far. Because I'm not seeing a whole lot of winning going on around here lately.

Originally posted by Tru2RedNGold25:

Until we start winning consistently i say we are building the Chip Kelly/Baalke way. There's still no proof this team will be successful even with Jimmy G at helm if we don't get help on the defensive front & shore up the O-line this team will once again stink next year

I certainly see similar paths and philosophy. This off season will go a long ways towards shining a light on this regimes true mindset when it comes to rebuilding...same as the previous regimes or will they make a hard left?

Originally posted by NinerGM:

"He had to understand the culture," Scarnecchia said. "There were some tough times out there on the practice field.
"There are ways we want things done. We want guys to practice in a certain manner. We want guys to prepare in a certain manner, and that can't be compromised. I think he ultimately got the message. And I think ultimately Trent wants to be a good player. So I think he understands if he does things the way we want them done, he has a chance to be a better player. That's served him well so far."

So reading the recent article about Trent Brown it's clear to me the 49ers can't currently build like the Patriots. The 49ers are still settling into their young somewhat inexperienced coaching staff. This means the team's personnel approach needs to be different because they don't have the inherent structure many veterans, seasoned coaching staffs have and need to acquire players that already come disciplined, motivated and developed. This team isn't for those who need to learn how to become good football players, they need to come with most of that already intact. Joe Williams and Reuben Foster are almost mirror images of each other for different reasons; one had discipline issues off the field, the other had discipline/drive/work ethic issues on the field. In either case could not have been saved/developed by this coaching staff because they're just not ready to develop a player of this kind. Brown was again another one of those players.

So that leaves me with this: 49ers can't take "flyers" and "risks" on the "diamond-in-the-rough" players who have red flags/question marks around discipline, drive, or desire. It's simply not their forte right now. The Patriots can. The 49ers at this stage, can't. Once they get settled, get some more seasoned coaching, establish a culture that leads to wins, they can then revisit players of this type. In the interim, Lynch and the FO need to stay far away from players such as these until their culture becomes more entrenched and the coaches and the locker room can mold any player they choose into a productive 49er.

It's pretty obvious the way do things isn't like the Patriots, just ask the karate kid

But there was a reason we traded Brown despite his talent and it's likely the same stuff Scarrnechia was referring to. The Pats just happened to get it out of him but at the same time...was it because he was on the Pats with the way they do things or because he knew he had a golden opportunity to get himself a huge contract in a contract year on a team that has many eyes on it?

Building the team one big end at a time.

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
It looks like the Jed York way so far. Because I'm not seeing a whole lot of winning going on around here lately.

We haven't been winning - Agree.

I won't go inot all the reasons - they've been stated over & over and if you don't believe it - you don't.

I feel confident next year we'll be a force.

FA will dictate more than the draft and if we have a solid draft - we'll be a team to be reckoned with.

Until then - we'll have to wait.

Which way seems the more tedious?
I think we have our FQB.
We've been drafting for defense since forever and that's still our biggest weakness.
I'm hoping after this years FA and draft that we can have our roster pretty well set and be at the point where we are just filling in a piece here and there as players move on.
I think we are getting close