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Week 10: Lessons Learned This Game & This Season

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
TK mentioned that had JG not gone down, they were going to be in the mix for a big trade (Brown, Jones etc) but abandoned that after he got injured. I think an FA addition like Williams coupled with JG and McKinnon coming back (and hopefully the emergence of Pettis) will help out this WR corps dramatically

Maybe but if we are going to make an addition I would hope it would be a sure fire WR1. Not a drafted player that takes time to develop or a decent free agent we need a number one we have enough twos and threes
Originally posted by RTFirefly:
Originally posted by jcs:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by GEEK:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
I would love to know who they've got on their list currently as top targets to pursue.

TK mentioned that had JG not gone down, they were going to be in the mix for a big trade (Brown, Jones etc) but abandoned that after he got injured. I think an FA addition like Williams coupled with JG and McKinnon coming back (and hopefully the emergence of Pettis) will help out this WR corps dramatically

That's very interesting. Essentially, we passed on coughing up picks for a guy who would probably get frustrated and leave after the season playing with second and third string quarterbacks.

The big three the team should consider are Williams, Moncrief, and Tate in free agency. I'm very curious who might be available in a trade after the season though.

The only players off hand that I can think of who are disgruntled and/or entering contract years that could reasonably come here are:

-Desean Jackson
-Jordy Nelson
-Tyler boyd

Tyrell Williams is a tall, speedy receiver that would add a new wrinkle to our offense. Chris Conley is another tall and speedy receiver that can get some separation. Similar for Moncrief.

One dark horse is Kevin White as a low risk signing. While he's basically inactive now on game days, dude has shown flashes as a fantastic blocking receiver. I'd love to convert him to a TE.

WR: Williams/Pettis
WR: Goodwin/Conley
WR: James/Bourne

TE: Kittle/White/Celek

Conley might leave KC because he is running behind Sammy Watkins, who the Chiefs brought in because they were not sure if Conley could come back from his injury. He is fast (4.35 combine 40) and has good size, 6'2", 210. He hasn't been targeted much this season. As of now, he is still in the "potential" category, not a proven performer. Looks like a #2/3. Better than anyone we have now but...

Not particularly high on Conley, doesn't strike me as "on the cusp of long term legitimacy" like Donte and Tyrell. Both have off the charts athleticism, Williams even more so, plus nearly 6-4 height. I don't think we've thrown a fade all season. I mean, who's gonna go get it? Unfortunately we don't have anyone but Kittle able to make contested catches. Everyone else flips them directly into the nearest defenders hands, Madden-style.

He was beginning to come on at the beginning of last year but has not been anything special this season. Mostly just a 3rd WR/blocker on bubble screens and the like.

There aren't a lot of receiver prospects that excite me in the draft. Combine numbers don't mean much unless you're either a) extremely slow, or b) extremely weak (but even then there are outliers like Landry and Boldin). So I'm heavily focused on film work, but I'm seeing a lot of mid range guys that are boom or bust depending on development.

I want us to invest a minimum of two picks on DE. I want to trade if we have a top three pick and then go BPA, depending on the circumstances. I am not opposed to adding a great pass rushing DT. We have plenty of rum stuffing DT, but no game changers after Buck.
We only have 6 picks next year, I doubt 2 go to DE.

I doubt it, too, but I really think we should. Who knows when we'll get such a rich prospect opportunity again?

That's if we don't trade at all either. We could easily trade some players away or trade back.

Even with 6 picks, what better use than two pass rushers? If you ask me, that's enough picks to address at least five areas. DE X 2, WR, CB, LB, and then pick any other position basically for added depth.

Definitely would like to add more picks, but six is enough to do some damage.
Originally posted by elguapo:
Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
TK mentioned that had JG not gone down, they were going to be in the mix for a big trade (Brown, Jones etc) but abandoned that after he got injured. I think an FA addition like Williams coupled with JG and McKinnon coming back (and hopefully the emergence of Pettis) will help out this WR corps dramatically

Maybe but if we are going to make an addition I would hope it would be a sure fire WR1. Not a drafted player that takes time to develop or a decent free agent we need a number one we have enough twos and threes

Only way they are going to get a sure fire WR1 will be via trade. FA and draft are a bit sparse at top shelf WR talent . Curious to see who may be available this offseason.
Originally posted by jcs:
We only have 6 picks next year, I doubt 2 go to DE.

Agreed they also added Street last year. I would suspect a quality free agent and a trade back then one in the late first or early second. Free agency this year will absolutely dictate what they do in the draft.
Originally posted by Izyniner:
Originally posted by jcs:
We only have 6 picks next year, I doubt 2 go to DE.

Agreed they also added Street last year. I would suspect a quality free agent and a trade back then one in the late first or early second. Free agency this year will absolutely dictate what they do in the draft.

Street is a strongside DE though. I think the surplus there (AA, ST, Blair) would necessitate a trade.

I think we need to add major talent at LEO. I'd trade one of the above three for a pick to be added to the arsenal to use on a Leo or Sam prospect.
Superb piece and same for discussion. Highlites are needs of 2 DEs, probably 2 Corners, 1 LB, and 1 WR. Tall order for one draft, even using 1 CB. The unstated part is that these guys all have to be #1 type talent to really help "fix" us. All must be not just better than what we have now, which is zippo, but true stalwarts, or standouts at their positions. That will be hard with 2 DEs.

A Question in the FO/HC/GM and now Mayhew team of focus. Kyle mentioned he was initially more interested in getting lesser players but more of them, rather than just 1 or 2 all stars. Now it seems that what we need are SIX true standouts at the above positions. I think having gone for lesser talents to fill holes was probably necessary, but then once filled, you see what happens. Just not good enough to help us. Because of that, we have to have a super active and productive FA or we are once again going to be less than mediocre.

Bottom line is altho it would look good to fill all six positions, with better players, that would be a waste. We need top of the line players at all those spots. To take less seems to me to be counterproductive. If they aren't the top players at that position, then they won't help us. The WHY is simple. Aside from Buck and JG, do we have any stars? Warner definitely in the conversation here, but Reuben, no, due to his injury hx. And as a first rounder,, altho late, that may end up having been a waste. Sure is fun to watch when he isn't dinged up tho.

The close games we continue to lose at games end...that is because we don't have "closers" as i believe kyle has said. Exactly. And i hope that means he knows we don't just need two DEs, but we need two game changers. To do that we almost surely have to bag one in FA...and i don't know who is available, if anybody. Same for CB , LB, and WR....all have to be #1s....best at their position. And that is probably further down the road than next yr or 2020, sad to say.

Finally not mentioned, but everyone knows it, we need another OT. Joe is hanging on, but we need not just a starter, but a backup starter also. Hopefully we can do that in FA. The only thing i have added here is the high caliber of starters we need, which just means it will take more time. We have "fillers" at other positions, but now , these 6...have to be top flite players. Do that and those close games....we finish with Ws...not Ls.
Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Superb piece and same for discussion. Highlites are needs of 2 DEs, probably 2 Corners, 1 LB, and 1 WR. Tall order for one draft, even using 1 CB. The unstated part is that these guys all have to be #1 type talent to really help "fix" us. All must be not just better than what we have now, which is zippo, but true stalwarts, or standouts at their positions. That will be hard with 2 DEs.

A Question in the FO/HC/GM and now Mayhew team of focus. Kyle mentioned he was initially more interested in getting lesser players but more of them, rather than just 1 or 2 all stars. Now it seems that what we need are SIX true standouts at the above positions. I think having gone for lesser talents to fill holes was probably necessary, but then once filled, you see what happens. Just not good enough to help us. Because of that, we have to have a super active and productive FA or we are once again going to be less than mediocre.

Bottom line is altho it would look good to fill all six positions, with better players, that would be a waste. We need top of the line players at all those spots. To take less seems to me to be counterproductive. If they aren't the top players at that position, then they won't help us. The WHY is simple. Aside from Buck and JG, do we have any stars? Warner definitely in the conversation here, but Reuben, no, due to his injury hx. And as a first rounder,, altho late, that may end up having been a waste. Sure is fun to watch when he isn't dinged up tho.

The close games we continue to lose at games end...that is because we don't have "closers" as i believe kyle has said. Exactly. And i hope that means he knows we don't just need two DEs, but we need two game changers. To do that we almost surely have to bag one in FA...and i don't know who is available, if anybody. Same for CB , LB, and WR....all have to be #1s....best at their position. And that is probably further down the road than next yr or 2020, sad to say.

Finally not mentioned, but everyone knows it, we need another OT. Joe is hanging on, but we need not just a starter, but a backup starter also. Hopefully we can do that in FA. The only thing i have added here is the high caliber of starters we need, which just means it will take more time. We have "fillers" at other positions, but now , these 6...have to be top flite players. Do that and those close games....we finish with Ws...not Ls.
Realistically, how many teams are able to stockpile six elite players at that many positions. Most teams don't have six elite players on their whole squad. I think you need to have elite players at QB, DE, and at least one of the defensive backfield positions to have a competitive team as long as the rest of your roster is dotted with solid, professional players. I might throw a LB in there as well. I think Shanahan showed last year what a good QB can do with lesser or undeveloped skill position players on offense. They were averaging 300 passing yards and what 27 points a game. They have also shown that they can probably put up at least 100 rushing yards a game. That will put you in the win column more often than not if your defense is doing its job. By that metric the team is getting pretty close. Jimmy G. (hopefully), Staley (for at least one more year).McGlinchey (if he keeps developing), and Kittle on offense with a bonus point going to Nick Mullens if he keeps developing and gives them a solid #2 option. Defense is where the problem lies. You have Buckner (think of how much better he might be if they had an elite ER), Warner (if he continues to develop) and maybe Sherman for another year. Jury is still out on Foster but if he can live up to his potential he and Warner could be a pretty good tandem. Still a lot of room for improvement on that side of the ball though, more needs there I think than on offense which will benefit a lot just from having all of their players healthy. As has been mentioned by many losing Jimmy put this whole season, and the rest of the squad, under the microscope, which sucks in the short term but might pay more dividends down the road as they have really been forced to look at every player on the roster. I know there are lot of people advocating for the Chicago model of rebuilding, which certainly seems to be paying off for them this year, but I have no particular issue with a more measured approach, especially in light of Jimmy's injury. I have always thought that 2019 was going to be the marker year for this FO to see how their plan was working out. I still think that is true.
[ Edited by 49ers81 on Nov 18, 2018 at 9:34 AM ]
  • cciowa
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street is a giant question mark . but it would be a lynch thing to ignore the pass rush and HOPE street coming off his acl will be the man.
Cripes, cc, i hope not. We've seen enough of that film already.

49ers81, i hear you, and truly we are not that far apart. You suggest " elites at QB, DE, CB/S, and LB to have a competitive team as long as the rest of the team is made of solid professionals." I added a second DE and OTC had #1 WR. The WR part, with kyles scheming to get guys open, one would think that was enough. But this yr, before he got ACLed, he had trouble finding anybody open. Kittle was it. So maybe we just need "solid professionals to make up the rest of our WRs, altho Goodwin, when healthy sure fits that bill. Injury has been an issue there, as likewise with Reuben, thus taking him out of the solid professsional or perhaps, Elite.

We are close, your suggestion being one less WR elite than OTC and one less DE than mine. So the answer is in there somewhere and i wouldn't argue too much with an Ellite DE plus a solid professional 2nd DE. Buck qualifies as elite to me, so sure, one Elite DE plus a solid pro DE would be fine.

I'm afraid OTC wins the argument wth elite WR, due to the trouble Defenses gave JG for his first 2 1/2 games. As per OTC, truly he had nobody open.

Our big problem is D. That means then that needing elite DE, CB/S would give us elites at Bucks DT slot and Warner's LB slot. So we would need solid professionals at 1 DE slot, 3 DB slots, we have one solid pro at the other DT slot(pick your choice of Blair, Day, Mitch, et al)), and we need another solid pro at LB. (Reuben, i'm Afraid is unreliable, which means not solid pro). Dekoda Watson ...solid pro? Probably.

That would mean adding solid pros on D at:
3 DBs
1 DE
1 LB
And elites at:
DE
CB

That is more manageable, but in one yr? Maybe, but probably not. Getting those two elites would be significant...but not easy. Getting the solid pros...i think we could do...at least shoot for 4 anyway.

On O, probably the elite WR and several solid pros, plus OT solid pro and backup.

That sounds like really active trading activity,(OTCs list of tradeables looks very possible) followed by a monster FA.. Then in draft, do what's left.

Looks like 2020...unlesss we got super lucky in '19
Yes, I could see adding a WR to that list. In terms of Shanahan's offense though I think a lot will depend on how well McKinnon comes back from his injury and how he is utilized. Shanahan seems to be all about matchups and he has a running back and a fullback who can catch the ball pretty well. I think another wild card is Trent Taylor. Has he disappeared from the offense because of his back or because neither Beathard or Mullen have quite the trigger that Jimmy has. I seem to recall hearing an announcer say during one of the early games that JG was struggling because teams were going with man-to-man coverage rather than the zone coverages he was seeing, and destroying, last year. Because his receivers weren't getting the quick separation he was looking for he ended up holding the ball too long which led to a lot of his sacks. I think if that becomes the "book" on JG then it will be up to Shanahan to come up with some adjustments to fit the players they have or they will have to go looking for a true #1.

If JG and McKinnon are healthy next year I think the team has enough going for it to be competitive. How quickly they reach the next level after that will depend on how well Richie Harris, Colbert, Witherspoon, Foster, Warner,T. Moore, Reed, and Harris develop. Wild cards are J. Taylor and Street at this point. Still hoping that all of the young guys get playing time this year so that the team can really see what it has in them. I think it will make the decisions about what they need to do next year clearer

Oops, my bad. Just flat out forgot McKennon. And true, with Kittle, JG should be okay. TT i heard was injured, but do not know 1st hand. Goodwin is all about staying healthy.

Then the D,and this is ALL about HEALTH. Foster has to be available most of 2019 or we can't use him much past next yr. Ward? Same problem. Colbert, spoon, WTF happened here? I hope Moore, reed, Harris develop, but HOPE is a four letter word...and counting on them is just betting on the come. Sure agree that J.Taylor and Street are wildcards, but one would think with our luck, at least one will be worthwhile. But all the above is just iffy, no guarantees, and leaves us wide open at CB, DE of course, LB, S. Sure liked the little i saw of Taylor and don't know why he isn't getting PT right now. IF STREET....well, there we are again. IF, if , If.

Somehow i had hoped we wouldn't have that as our introductory word to every statement made re: the 9ers this late in the game. Wrong assumptions have been made, mistakes have been made, guys have been injured...others just stay chronically injured, and frankly, we have had some bad luck.

Come next yr, i hope for all that to be in the rear view mirror and we get on with the rebuild. The intriguing thing is OTCs possible trade list, and that is fascinating as a potential for garnering more picks. Nobody there we can't do without, and his idea is a good one.
Originally posted by SteveYoung:
Nice post.

I've been saying it for a while that a Julio Jones or ODB type of reciever takes this offense to another level. If we can get big leads it will only help the pass rush. Sadly there arent any good #1's available. I'd be all for a trade down and for us to grab one with a top 10 pick.

Thankfully this draft is loaded with pass rushers because we need 2. I'm hoping we sign one and draft one high. There are quite a few pass rushers available in free agency.

CB, FS, LB and SS are also huge needs. It's a shame Tartt and Foster cant stay healthy because they are difference makers when they are on the field.

Absolutely. Those types of players can take any offense to the next level, however those types of players are not available in every draft, even if you are drafting in the top-10 ever year, you can't count on landing that type of special player, so we have to stick to what's available. The issue is what the OP pointed out, Garcon is too slow or has just lost it. Since we can't draft a Julio Jones this year, the next best thing is to put a fast receiver opposite of Goodwin. This would at least force defenses to choose who they are going to give bracket coverage to. Tyrell Williams currently is the Chargers deep threat, but on the 49ers, he likely would be singled up. Between those two guys and Kittle alone, the passing offense should take off. Add in Breida, Juice, and potentially McKinnon, and I like what KS can do with these guys on paper. Even if we were to move on from Garcon (and we should), I don't like Pettis in that starting role and do not want to rely on a rookie either.
It's hard to say who we'll have an opportunity to truly get in free agency. There are players that should be available but obviously we're not the only team in the league with money to spend.

If we can land at least one legit, quality starter from any positions of need between pass rusher, SAM, receiver, safety, or corner, we should have enough draft capital to fill enough of the other holes so this team is way better off next year.
Hope you are right OTC, but i think we need more than one starter from FA for ER, LEO, 2 LBs, #1 WR, 3 DBs, and an OT(that probably comes in draft). Just guessing but LB , maybe one DB, might just be doable. But because we are so stinky, maybe we get lucky with just one of those slots .
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