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Week 5 2017: Thoughts after rewatching the game...

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Originally posted by Marvin49:
1) Hoyer: This is the kind of game that defines the reason why you don't decide how a player played in the game solely by a stat line. In fairness, he did make some good throws and there were a few drops, but it is abundantly clear he ain't the guy. Thats not a shocker. Just statement of fact.

2) Offensive Scheme: I am so excited to see where this offense goes once they have more pieces. Watching the games it seems like Kyle is scheming the hell out of the games and he is just one block here, one catch there or a better throw away from really having something. They have little bursts where you se guys wide open in space and they move down the field with ease and then they have spurts where they can't do anything. This team is on the right track. There is no question in my mind.

3) Defensive Scheme: I would say the same is true on the defensive side of the ball but a bit less so. When they hired Saleh I thought he's be something of a placeholder for possibly hiring Vic Fangio when he breaks loose next year. I still think thats a possibility, but now I kinda doubt it. They have completely changed the scheme. The young D-Linemen (especially #99...more on that later) are thriving. I don't know that you would want to switch back to another scheme. I have been pleasantly surprised so far by Saleh, but he has the same challenges that Kyle does. You can scheme all you want, but if you don't have the horses, it ain't gonna happen.

4) DeForest Buckner: Monster. Plain and simple.

5) Carlos Hyde: I'm a fan. I really like the guy. He can't stay healthy. Its maddening. Its ALWAYS SOMETHING with Carlos. He'll have a monster game and then disappear. I know he was limited in his opportunities this week, but he's clearly not the same right now. He's a FA after the season and right now I can't see them putting big money into retaining him. To be honest, I've had my eye on #26 at Penn State but I'll save that for a conversation at another time.

6) Tartt: He still makes mistakes, but he is a big part of the future. In fact, he more than any other reason might be why Eric Reid doesn't get a long term deal in SF. Really seeing him coming into his own. He did totally screw up on the first TD and thats going to happen from time to time, but the guy is a player.

7) Ray Ray: Another due who drives me crazy. On one play he looks outstanding. On the next I think he's brain dead. Guy has the athletic ability, but I can't wait till he's no longer in the starting lineup. I sense a 5AVA6E coming back soon. :)

8) Arik Armstead: Miscast. I don't know how good he can be in another scheme or in different role in this one, but he's totally miscast as a Leo. That isn't exactly a revelation either. He is a good NFL player trying to do something he's not suited for. I would be interested how he would play bigger, inside beside Buckner. Problem is that Solomon Thomas and Earl Mitchell seem to fit best there too. My guess is Armstead is on another team as early as next year and he'll play well for that new team.

9) WR: This will be an emphasis in the offseason, but I have to say I like the signing of Garcon much more now. Dude is a stud. I hope he has several years left in the tank to be a part of the future. Goodwin I like but its clear he's limited. IMO he should not be a starting player but should be a role player. Really like what I've seen from Trent Taylor.

10) Jed/Anthem/Jerry Jones: Two weeks in a row I'm going down the political path because I don't really think I have a choice...but this is a bit different. I'm not going to comment on whether players should/should not protest or if teams should or should not let them. I clearly have an opinion that would likely not surprise many of you but I actually think there is a football aspect to this that might be interesting to watch.

The NFL is supposedly "discussing" rule changes to require player to stand for the anthem. The reality is that it would likely be argued against by the NFLPA and if it went to court would likely be shot down outright. No legal grounds to force a player to stand for the Anthem.

As such, where individual owners stand on the issue will be noticed by players as the process moves forward. Jerry Jones has already stated where he stands. I can't imagine thats popular with players. Jed York has made comments on where he stands. My guess is players will notice that as well.

As free agency looms and you are a good player in the NFL who happens to agree with the stance the players are taking, are you more likely to sign in SF with an owner that has publicly supported you or and owner in Dallas who wants to force you to stand? SF also has a young HC who can relate to players with a brilliant offensive mind.

Don't be surprised if under the surface the political battle thats brewing on NFL sidelines makes players choose a location and an owner that support their beliefs.

Just sayin',

As always Marvin, great post! I completely agree about the bright future with how close we've been and seeing that the O and D schemes will work! It's hard to see right now because Kyle trying to street race a Ferrari in a Dautson B210😂. I always felt this was a three year rebuild😉
  • evil
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Originally posted by Polkadots:
Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Originally posted by Polkadots:
For sure. I believe you will see all 32 teams comply, but I am quite interested to see how it all goes down.

They shouldn't. It should be a team by team choice, nothing should be mandated. Bowing to political correctness is pathetic.

While I agree with the final sentence, I don't think this revolves around political correctness as much as it does about dollars and cents.


Lets stay on the football topic (like I failed to do on my 1st post in this thread), we have threads for politics, see below.

Originally posted by evil:
Originally posted by 16to87:
Already a thread for this http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/parking-lot/189330-politics-in-football/

correct, and i kinda derailed for a second there so my bad.

let's push the political talk there and leave this for the footballs.
Originally posted by Hawaii49er:

3. Jeff Hafley and his 2ndary staff needs to be replaced. They should also be accountable for RR's poor performance.

This has to be considered because RR did not look like this last year at all...from the dumb trail technique to huge cushions in off coverages to giving up the same exact routes every damn time.
[ Edited by NCommand on Oct 10, 2017 at 1:17 PM ]
pretty spot on except for one minor difference....the DL isn't thriving, well, not at rushing the pasher, but their run defense is tons better.
I hope we can trade AA for an OG, WR, or TE that's also talented but in the wrong scheme.
Great read Marvin.

Agree on Tartt assessment. Really believe we can build around him. Ray-Ray has put together 2 very solid games in a row. Is a 3rd likely? I hope so.

De-Fo is absolutely balling. I mean straight EATING. Said it from day 1, I love his motor. Now playing with great pad level and using that length. This guy is a blue-chip prospect we can build around. I hope Solly can show some more consistency in the coming weeks.

Can't wait to see Reuben on the field (I hope) in Week 6.

Garcon is another stud. Love the way he plays ball.

Lastly - Trent Brown continues to be a stud in pass protection. Through 4 games, he was a stud in run-blocking. Most consistency we have seen from him. But I thought he struggled in Week 5. Had alot of whiffs. Players have bad games and hoping he continues to improve in run-blocking.
Originally posted by Marvin49:

2) Offensive Scheme: I am so excited to see where this offense goes once they have more pieces. Watching the games it seems like Kyle is scheming the hell out of the games and he is just one block here, one catch there or a better throw away from really having something. They have little bursts where you se guys wide open in space and they move down the field with ease and then they have spurts where they can't do anything. This team is on the right track. There is no question in my mind.

3) Defensive Scheme: I would say the same is true on the defensive side of the ball but a bit less so. When they hired Saleh I thought he's be something of a placeholder for possibly hiring Vic Fangio when he breaks loose next year. I still think thats a possibility, but now I kinda doubt it. They have completely changed the scheme. The young D-Linemen (especially #99...more on that later) are thriving. I don't know that you would want to switch back to another scheme. I have been pleasantly surprised so far by Saleh, but he has the same challenges that Kyle does. You can scheme all you want, but if you don't have the horses, it ain't gonna happen.

8) Arik Armstead: Miscast. I don't know how good he can be in another scheme or in different role in this one, but he's totally miscast as a Leo. That isn't exactly a revelation either. He is a good NFL player trying to do something he's not suited for. I would be interested how he would play bigger, inside beside Buckner. Problem is that Solomon Thomas and Earl Mitchell seem to fit best there too. My guess is Armstead is on another team as early as next year and he'll play well for that new team.

About 2) and 3) : I agree, a lot of the problems with the offense is a lack of execution - in particular, the lack of execution on the part of the interior of the line, QB and too many drops by receivers not named Garçon. And Penalties. Shanahan's system seems to work best when a series of plays develops a rhythm. Lack of execution and penalties are rhythm killers, drive killers and red zone success killers.

Defense is different. In the secondary, I get the feeling that there are schematic breakdowns sometimes - which is certainly a lack of execution - but the cornerbacks in particular seem to lack the skill to execute consistently. The lack of skill may be because of a lack of athletic talent or ability to understand and process what is happening on the field. But it could be that there are some problems with the way Saleh is telling the secondary to operate, though. I don't understand passing routes and defenses against them enough to tell, but it seems like it could be part of the problem with secondary.

The dynamics of the defensive line are a mess, but there's a LOT of talent in that mess so they aren't doing too badly. Saleh is obviously trying out a lot of people in at least two and sometimes three different positions. I don't know if he is looking for particular matchups against particular o-lineman or something else, or a whole bunch of something elses being factored in, but there's a lot of different "looks" he is putting out there. So far I think any success is about individual talent as much as it is about scheme. There could be some sound strategic thinking going on in Saleh's head but sometimes it's hard to see it. Big open spaces between the collapsing pocket and the linebackers seems to be a persistent problem. And even not particularly mobile QBs seem to be able to squirt out of the pocket into a wide expanse of only grass. That could change if Foster comes back looking like he did in the first game.

About 8) : I get why people are not very impressed with AA. It seems like he only shows up in the flow of the live game when he messes up or does something goofy because of his slow reaction rate. But I watched the game again (actually for the 3rd time) specifically to only keep track of AA (Game pass condensed, skipping offensive plays). He looked like he was having at least an average amount of success at holding his position against an aggressive block and held up reasonably well on double teams. He is slower than average in finding the ball and react to the change from a possible run to it being a passing play. If he is given a gap to rush and isn't double teamed, then I think he might be even a bit above average in disrupting the QB on a pass play. His lack of reaction rate, though, seems to always keep the QB out of his reach, which is frustrating to watch. It seemed to me that on most if not all the plays I saw that he didn't give up on the play as readily as some here seem to think. Different eyes on the action, I guess.

The team may be lacking somewhat in talent but if everyone executed their roles to near the best of their abilities, they should be able to beat other bottom dwellers more often than not.

Random question: Anybody know who the SAM linebacker usually is in base defense? Who does he usually line up next to?
[ Edited by 49erphan on Oct 10, 2017 at 2:19 PM ]
  • jcs
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Originally posted by 49erphan:

About 8) : I get why people are not very impressed with AA. It seems like he only shows up in the flow of the live game when he messes up or does something goofy because of his slow reaction rate. But I watched the game again (actually for the 3rd time) specifically to only keep track of AA (Game pass condensed, skipping offensive plays). He looked like he was having at least an average amount of success at holding his position against an aggressive block and held up reasonably well on double teams. He is slower than average in finding the ball and react to the change from a possible run to it being a passing play. If he is given a gap to rush and isn't double teamed, then I think he might be even a bit above average in disrupting the QB on a pass play. His lack of reaction rate, though, seems to always keep the QB out of his reach, which is frustrating to watch. It seemed to me that on most if not all the plays I saw that he didn't give up on the play as readily as some here seem to think. Different eyes on the action, I guess.
Rewatch the last big play that put indy in FG position and you'll understand why AA is worthless. Can't play the run and he struggles rushing the passer. Looks good in shorts but he's always a step behind in pads.
Originally posted by evil:
yeah, on the heels of the potus threatening to end tax breaks to the league.

potus is trying to strong arm the league into doing what he wants. potus is not talking about why the players do it and does not respect that it is their right to do it. maybe he should try talking to the some of the players and try to understand why they do it and how they think he as the potus can help "make america great again" by helping resolve the issues they are kneeling for. if he actually tried to work with the players instead of working against them then maybe he could get them to all stand again in time.

How's that different from any other POTUS? If the NFL did Michael Sam like they did Kaepernick or refused to take a strong stance on domestic violence, you bet Obama and his special interests would have been talking about the same thing.

The truth of the matter is that no multi-billion dollar enterprise is immune from politics. It wasn't long ago that MLB officials were dragged up to DC during the PED fiasco.
[ Edited by BleedsRedNGold on Oct 10, 2017 at 3:09 PM ]
  • thl408
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Hey what quarter was it when Hoyer missed seeing an open WR in the endzone. I can't find that play. Serious question.

edit: nevermind I found it. 49ers ended up scoring a TD on the drive anyway (game tying TD).
[ Edited by thl408 on Oct 10, 2017 at 3:21 PM ]
Originally posted by evil:
yeah, on the heels of the potus threatening to end tax breaks to the league.

potus is trying to strong arm the league into doing what he wants. potus is not talking about why the players do it and does not respect that it is their right to do it. maybe he should try talking to the some of the players and try to understand why they do it and how they think he as the potus can help "make america great again" by helping resolve the issues they are kneeling for. if he actually tried to work with the players instead of working against them then maybe he could get them to all stand again in time.

Trump has his own agenda with this. He lost with the USFL and then got a big no when talking about buying the bills (and moving them to Toronto) imo this is his way of getting back at them.

He's also trying to jump all over this like you said to fit his "make America great" BS (along with talking heat of the Puerto Rico fiasco).

It honestly makes me sick that this is the s**t we have to deal with from the commander and chief. It's something stupid every.other.day....as I'm writing this trump called out his secretary of state and wants a I.Q test good lord.
[ Edited by NYniner85 on Oct 10, 2017 at 3:44 PM ]
Originally posted by NYniner85:
Originally posted by evil:
yeah, on the heels of the potus threatening to end tax breaks to the league.

potus is trying to strong arm the league into doing what he wants. potus is not talking about why the players do it and does not respect that it is their right to do it. maybe he should try talking to the some of the players and try to understand why they do it and how they think he as the potus can help "make america great again" by helping resolve the issues they are kneeling for. if he actually tried to work with the players instead of working against them then maybe he could get them to all stand again in time.

Trump has his own agenda with this. He lost with the USFL and then got a big no when talking about buying the bills (and moving them to Toronto) imo this is his way of getting back at them.

He's also trying to jump all over this like you said to fit his "make America great" BS (along with talking heat of the Puerto Rico fiasco).

It honestly makes me sick that this is the s**t we have to deal with from the commander and chief. It's something stupid every.other.day....as I'm writing this trump called out his secretary of state and wants a I.Q test good lord.
Trump has issues with people of color and it's not hidden
Really good post as akways
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Trump has issues with people of color and it's not hidden

Yup and women...all that s**t has been well documented over the past 30+ years.

Trump is a horrible human end of the day, has been long long before he was sniffing at being the POTUS.

People gotta look past all this party crap...not all republicans are rich racists and not all democrats are liberal pussies. We can have different views on topics and still figure out how to make s**t right in this world.
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by suckafree17:
Hoyer has to be the only QB we've ever had that will throw for 300+ yards and feel disappointed. But its been overstated that he isn't the answer but it drives me crazy when he misses a throw or a read. I give all the production to Shanahan. The scheme is very nice, too bad we don't have a guy that a little more accurate and on time. We do have other areas of concern. We need another stud receiver on the other side of Garcon. A shutdown corner would be nice too.....At the end of the day I feel like we're very close and it will only be a short matter of time until we put it together.

Totally agree.

It feels like Kyle is scheming his a$$ off but the horses just can't get it done. More now than ever I am confident in Shanahans hire and hope that Lynch can do his part.

Kyle's offense has been on my radar since his Houston days. He's a special offensive Xs and Os Guy. Hoyer threw for 350 yards but left IMO at least 100 or so yards on the field. That's like 450 yards passing with the personnel we have. It's no surprise that when he had good personnel (Hou and ATL) it was 6000+ yards total offense seasons.
[ Edited by Niners816 on Oct 10, 2017 at 4:35 PM ]
I don't understand the Tartt hype. His angles of pursuit are bad, he misses tackles. I'll take Reid any day.
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