Injuries - 9-Year Analysis

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:
If we were this consistent year-and, year-out, on making the playoffs, for 7 straight years, would you say that's random too and give the staff and players all the love?

I mean what else what would it be....you got 7 years with different players, coaching staffs, SC staffs etc.

The CBA makes it so you can't do s**t much different from the other teams as far as length of time in pads, hitting, numbers of workouts, length of workouts etc. It's not like Pittsburgh is doing something so vastly different from the Chargers or 49ers. They actually can't.

JV said SF has amazing technology in regards to recovery and some of the best staff in regards to keeping him heathy. IMO some of these dudes don't come to OTAs in top end shape, OTAs aren't made to get you into shape, you should be ready to roll. The whole situation that happened in DEN with James makes me wonder if a lot of players that don't have GTD cash in front of them are hesitant to workout properly outside of the facility? Also, I don't know how many guys actually live in CA outside of the season because it's so damn expensive... so they don't workout at the facility as much as other players on other teams during the off season?

I don't know just a thought....

If they made the playoffs 7 straight years WITH the same CBA rules, we wouldn't call that random.

This is crazy, already lost two players for the season and we're not even close to pre-season. The 49ers are a multi billion dollar organization, can't the find SOMEONE anyone to figure this out? Call Jeff Cavaliere of Atlhean-x.com

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:
If we were this consistent year-and, year-out, on making the playoffs, for 7 straight years, would you say that's random too and give the staff and players all the love?

I mean what else what would it be....you got 7 years with different players, coaching staffs, SC staffs etc.

The CBA makes it so you can't do s**t much different from the other teams as far as length of time in pads, hitting, numbers of workouts, length of workouts etc. It's not like Pittsburgh is doing something so vastly different from the Chargers or 49ers. They actually can't.

JV said SF has amazing technology in regards to recovery and some of the best staff in regards to keeping him heathy. IMO some of these dudes don't come to OTAs in top end shape, OTAs aren't made to get you into shape, you should be ready to roll. The whole situation that happened in DEN with James makes me wonder if a lot of players that don't have GTD cash in front of them are hesitant to workout properly outside of the facility? Also, I don't know how many guys actually live in CA outside of the season because it's so damn expensive... so they don't workout at the facility as much as other players on other teams during the off season?

I don't know just a thought....

If they made the playoffs 7 straight years WITH the same CBA rules, we wouldn't call that random.

what does that have to do with what we're talking about? We're talking about injuries not play on the field, talent level, coaching level etc. We could have had everyone 100% healthy and not made the playoffs under Kelly/Tomsula and Kyle YR1.

The CBA makes it damn near identical as far as how the off season programs (OTAs/TC) go. I think we all agree that SF probably brought in more players with injured pasts then others....IMO that might have played a part in the abundance of injuries, however Skule and Moore don't fit that mold.

It's not like SF is doing something so different from everyone else in the league when it comes to practices. Also we're talking about 7 years with how many different coaching staffs?

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:
If we were this consistent year-and, year-out, on making the playoffs, for 7 straight years, would you say that's random too and give the staff and players all the love?

I mean what else what would it be....you got 7 years with different players, coaching staffs, SC staffs etc.

The CBA makes it so you can't do s**t much different from the other teams as far as length of time in pads, hitting, numbers of workouts, length of workouts etc. It's not like Pittsburgh is doing something so vastly different from the Chargers or 49ers. They actually can't.

JV said SF has amazing technology in regards to recovery and some of the best staff in regards to keeping him heathy. IMO some of these dudes don't come to OTAs in top end shape, OTAs aren't made to get you into shape, you should be ready to roll. The whole situation that happened in DEN with James makes me wonder if a lot of players that don't have GTD cash in front of them are hesitant to workout properly outside of the facility? Also, I don't know how many guys actually live in CA outside of the season because it's so damn expensive... so they don't workout at the facility as much as other players on other teams during the off season?

I don't know just a thought....

If they made the playoffs 7 straight years WITH the same CBA rules, we wouldn't call that random.

what does that have to do with what we're talking about? We're talking about injuries not play on the field, talent level, coaching level etc. We could have had everyone 100% healthy and not made the playoffs under Kelly/Tomsula and Kyle YR1.

The CBA makes it damn near identical as far as how the off season programs (OTAs/TC) go. I think we all agree that SF probably brought in more players with injured pasts then others....IMO that might have played a part in the abundance of injuries, however Skule and Moore don't fit that mold.

It's not like SF is doing something so different from everyone else in the league when it comes to practices. Also we're talking about 7 years with how many different coaching staffs?

Same exact concept that captveg noted. Is it random Seattle and the Rams have been the healthiest over the same span? I just don't think a consistent and clear pattern in anything in life is "random."

Obviously you're not going to pinpoint "one" thing as the sole reason. Just like if they won 7 straight years, it would be for a combination of consistent reasons.

Like you, I'm not claiming I have all the answers either, just noting this has gone far beyond random and just bad luck.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Same exact concept that captveg noted. Is it random Seattle and the Rams have been the healthiest over the same span? I just don't think a consistent and clear pattern in anything in life is "random."

Obviously you're not going to pinpoint "one" thing as the sole reason. Just like if they won 7 straight years, it would be for a combination of consistent reasons.

Like you, I'm not claiming I have all the answers either, just noting this has gone far beyond random and just bad luck.

So what's the difference then? They all have to run damn near the same practices per the CBA... you brought up Seattle getting in trouble for "hitting" in OTAs but the last time that happened was in 2016. I'm just failing to see what the debate is about?

Rams and Seattle have dealt with their own soft tissue injuries as well (yes not as much as SF) if they had some magic juice guys like Cooper/wentworth wouldn't be getting ligament injuries....Every Seattle RB and Jamal Adams wouldn't be getting injured either.

It's football and you have massive humans that are rocked out running around and cutting quickly...imo our ligaments haven't caught up to the rest of the body in regards to muscle mass/size.

Stuff that's controllable for SF (IMO) are stop bringing in guys that have injured past, that you're expecting meaningful snaps from and really let it be known that you HAVE to show up to OTAs in shape, the NFLPA f**ked up not mandating that if players are working out off campus and get injured they should still get their cash.

I get it, it's frustrating and we all have PTSD whenever anyone get's hurt...it's not gonna stop happening, especially early in OTAs.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Same exact concept that captveg noted. Is it random Seattle and the Rams have been the healthiest over the same span? I just don't think a consistent and clear pattern in anything in life is "random."

Obviously you're not going to pinpoint "one" thing as the sole reason. Just like if they won 7 straight years, it would be for a combination of consistent reasons.

Like you, I'm not claiming I have all the answers either, just noting this has gone far beyond random and just bad luck.

So what's the difference then? They all have to run damn near the same practices per the CBA... you brought up Seattle getting in trouble for "hitting" in OTAs but the last time that happened was in 2016. I'm just failing to see what the debate is about?

Rams and Seattle have dealt with their own soft tissue injuries as well (yes not as much as SF) if they had some magic juice guys like Cooper/wentworth wouldn't be getting ligament injuries....Every Seattle RB and Jamal Adams wouldn't be getting injured either.

It's football and you have massive humans that are rocked out running around and cutting quickly...imo our ligaments haven't caught up to the rest of the body in regards to muscle mass/size.

Stuff that's controllable for SF (IMO) are stop bringing in guys that have injured past, that you're expecting meaningful snaps from and really let it be known that you HAVE to show up to OTAs in shape, the NFLPA f**ked up not mandating that if players are working out off campus and get injured they should still get their cash.

I get it, it's frustrating and we all have PTSD whenever anyone get's hurt...it's not gonna stop happening, especially early in OTAs.

The CBA simply outlines the time frames, lengths, dates, contact vs. non-contact, media availability, etc.

HOW teams practice and train and prepare for live NFL games inside this lines are up to each individual team and there is variance in that and different philosophies.

You'll hear players move from one team to another and talk about differences in practice and preparation.

You're pinpointing one or two players. I'm looking at it collectively. Seattle has slipped from #2 to #4 because they actually had a rougher year last couple years but still, overall, is a top-notch model of health. They used to beat the s**t out of us guaranteeing numerous injuries for us every time we play them.

Moneyball, soft practices, dog mentality, game-like simulations, full pads, diet, drugs, training, rehab practices, off season responsibility, different athletic profiles (quick vs. sturdy), systems, on-field load and responsibilities, etc. It's probably all of that and more.

I'm certainly with you on your theories as well. I just don't think it's random at all. It's their current system as it produces remarkably consistent results.

I agree. This is only the beginning. Year 8 will be no different than 1-7.

PS: Seattle was busted in September 19th, 2016 after a full off season if cheating. From 2014-2016 they were 7th, 3rd and 5th in health. From 2017 (post-busted) on, 22nd, 10th, 6th and 20th. Maybe there is something to simulating the body for live contact. But that's just one element.

The league fined the team $400,000, fined head coach Pete Carroll $200,000 and took away Seattle's fifth-round draft pick in 2017.

As long as the NFL refuses to work together with the WADA it will only be getting worse as more and more and better PEDs become available. Additionally the rules should include positional weight/bmi categories. This would do way more for the product and players' health than stupid rule changes like making QBs almost untouchable.

A statistician would probably say we need a longer time frame to actually see a pattern. The probability of a coin coming up heads is 50/50 but if you toss it 10 times you could very well get 7 or 8 heads. Over a longer period the odds even out.

Kind of the same with injuries. The Niners have been hit hard in recent seasons especially with serious injuries to key players. What would it look like if we went back 20 years or 40years. We didn't seem to have too many injuries in the 80's and 90's. One thing about the recent injuries that might be affecting the numbers are repeat injuries. I know we've had a few players that seem to get injured over and over. Maybe we're just in a period where we have some injury prone players.

I doubt it has anything to do with how they're practicing or training in the off season since most teams all do pretty much the same things. Unless they aren't giving the players a program to follow in the off season which might lead to being out of shape in camp.

Originally posted by CatchMaster80:
A statistician would probably say we need a longer time frame to actually see a pattern. The probability of a coin coming up heads is 50/50 but if you toss it 10 times you could very well get 7 or 8 heads. Over a longer period the odds even out.

Kind of the same with injuries. The Niners have been hit hard in recent seasons especially with serious injuries to key players. What would it look like if we went back 20 years or 40years. We didn't seem to have too many injuries in the 80's and 90's. One thing about the recent injuries that might be affecting the numbers are repeat injuries. I know we've had a few players that seem to get injured over and over. Maybe we're just in a period where we have some injury prone players.

I doubt it has anything to do with how they're practicing or training in the off season since most teams all do pretty much the same things. Unless they aren't giving the players a program to follow in the off season which might lead to being out of shape in camp.

Good point. I started this thread after noticing the pattern. So, AGL started in 2008 so I went back and listed SF's rank: 1-32

2008 - 4th (healthiest)
2009 - 23rd
2010 - 4th
2011 - 8th
2012 - 1st
2013 - 23rd
2014 - 26th
2015 - 26th
2016 - 24th
2017 - 23rd
2018 - 29th
2019 - 27th
2020 - 32nd
2021 - 3 on I.R. in June

PS: A statistician would have said he expected a regression back to the mean a long time ago.

It's noted that the 49ers' locker room is one of, and perhaps, the best. ShanaLynch have acquired selfless guys, dedicated to their team. It may be, with this personality, that the players work too hard. For instance, Kittle refuses an operation on his shoulder because doesn't want to miss a workout. As noted above, football players are rocked. Perhaps SF's players build muscles even more that more often yank tendons and bones too severely.

This wouldn't explain the apparent high ranking of SF's injuries before ShanaLynch's arrival.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by CatchMaster80:
A statistician would probably say we need a longer time frame to actually see a pattern. The probability of a coin coming up heads is 50/50 but if you toss it 10 times you could very well get 7 or 8 heads. Over a longer period the odds even out.

Kind of the same with injuries. The Niners have been hit hard in recent seasons especially with serious injuries to key players. What would it look like if we went back 20 years or 40years. We didn't seem to have too many injuries in the 80's and 90's. One thing about the recent injuries that might be affecting the numbers are repeat injuries. I know we've had a few players that seem to get injured over and over. Maybe we're just in a period where we have some injury prone players.

I doubt it has anything to do with how they're practicing or training in the off season since most teams all do pretty much the same things. Unless they aren't giving the players a program to follow in the off season which might lead to being out of shape in camp.

Good point. I started this thread after noticing the pattern. So, AGL started in 2008 so I went back and listed SF's rank: 1-32

2008 - 4th (healthiest)
2009 - 23rd
2010 - 4th
2011 - 8th
2012 - 1st
2013 - 23rd
2014 - 26th
2015 - 26th
2016 - 24th
2017 - 23rd
2018 - 29th
2019 - 27th
2020 - 32nd
2021 - 3 on I.R. in June

PS: A statistician would have said he expected a regression back to the mean a long time ago.

Whoever was strength and conditioning coach and the medical guys back in 2012, maybe recall them to pick their brains and see if they can be consultant to our current guys if they are still available.

To me money-ball is the simplest explanation for now. As others have said, the CBA pretty much forces NFL clubs to do the same thing.

What happened in 2012 was that the 49ers got into cap hell, and maybe Paarag instituted the money ball policies (I think) around that time. They just redid their money-ball scouting analysis this year, so I think it will take a year or two for the statistics to regress to the mean. It looks like since Kyle's been HC its just gotten worse. (Maybe its his scheme on top of the money-ball?)

It's getting to the point that the players are so strong and so fast that they're pushing the physical limits of ligaments and tendons. Maybe in the future these guys will get cyberneticly implanted ligaments and tendons made of kevlar and titanium.

Think about the players that got injured. Both were basically playing for their jobs. Could it be that they were pushing their bodies past their physical limits? Perhaps this team is way too competitive with guys like Deebo and Kittle with his wrestler mentality. Everyone feeds off of that and pushes themselves to the limit.

But how do you tell guys to take it easy without telling them to take it easy? On top of that, it's easy to tell a guy like Trent Williams to take it easy, but how can you say that to a guy who is on the bubble like Justin Skule?

Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
It's noted that the 49ers' locker room is one of, and perhaps, the best. ShanaLynch have acquired selfless guys, dedicated to their team. It may be, with this personality, that the players work too hard. For instance, Kittle refuses an operation on his shoulder because doesn't want to miss a workout. As noted above, football players are rocked. Perhaps SF's players build muscles even more that more often yank tendons and bones too severely.

This wouldn't explain the apparent high ranking of SF's injuries before ShanaLynch's arrival.

That's a legit point. Kyle has definitely swung to alpha dogs after Pettis and Witherspoon and peaches that team first and physicality. But with that, comes players pushing too hard or grinding through ailments that turn into injuries. Kittle, like you noted, I still do not understand why he didn't already have surgery. Legit point.

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by GEEK:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hysterikal:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Haha, nice! Yeah, nothing wrong with moving on and talking next steps. Just as long as those steps don't lead to more ACL's, Achilles, and hammy tears. LOL

I just don't see how ligament injuries are avoidable in football? Sucks and it's mind-blowing how much it happens here....but it's part of the game.

These guys gotta come to OTAs in better shape IMO...it's tough to do that unless you're training at the facility months prior.

Well my understanding is soft tissue injuries happen from over use. So maybe they need to come in worst shape.

Crock mirroring one of my theories.

NFL teams used to practice for like 3 hours or something crazy.. and that's not even including Summer 2 a days. Brutal practices. Full padded. Hitting & all. And definitely didn't have training resources like teams do today. Yet, there are way more injuries. Why is that?

— Crocky⚡️ (@eric_crocker) June 8, 2021

Is there data to support it? Or is it because now in the twitter social media era it's more widely reported?

it's simple.. there is just more wear and tear...

Pros are training year round.. right after the Super Bowl ...you see all these back to the grind tweets. They should just rest

Players do train him more than they trained years ago..

It doesn't matter what you're doing in a gym be it Plyrometrics or just lifting weights every motion you do should be designed to put minimal pressure on your joints and tendons and to only stress the muscle..

Football is anything but straight up and down motion. There are lateral stresses put on joints and tendons and ligaments constantly. You can't train for that...

However, the 49ers have had a higher than average amount of injuries constantly for years without going back to the mean & Because of that, there should be a solution.

Originally posted by BleedsRedNGold:
It's getting to the point that the players are so strong and so fast that they're pushing the physical limits of ligaments and tendons. Maybe in the future these guys will get cyberneticly implanted ligaments and tendons made of kevlar and titanium.

Think about the players that got injured. Both were basically playing for their jobs. Could it be that they were pushing their bodies past their physical limits? Perhaps this team is way too competitive with guys like Deebo and Kittle with his wrestler mentality. Everyone feeds off of that and pushes themselves to the limit.

But how do you tell guys to take it easy without telling them to take it easy. On top of that, it's easy to tell a guy like Trent Williams to take it easy, but how can you say that to a guy who is on the bubble like Justin Skule?

This is one of my theories as well. That because of the CBA rules and how much SF cuts back and plays overly cautiously on the injury front, players have less opportunities to shine and make an impression so they end up overextending themselves in the few changes to shine and consequently, get injured. Just one element to this formula IMHO.