Which current 49ers fit in a 4-3 defense, which don't, and what will it look like

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by tjd808185:
Not sure if you can bank on the cover 3. Both Jax and Atl have had to go more man to man and we saw something similar with the cover 2 where as more teams adopted it the easier it came to scheme against.

Yes. This is a big topic for me. The big success of SEA's Cover3 is similar to how the Bucs ran Tampa2. Coaches from that system got poached. The system spread around the NFL. Offenses faced it more often, and more and more ways were found to beat it (Tampa2). I can see the exact same thing happen to SEA's Cover3 fad. But when you think about it, it was the players that made the Bucs Tampa2 so great (Sapp, SRice, Brooks, RBarber, Lynch, etc). Same can be said of SEA's Cover3 and their top talent in 2012-15.

Goes to show there's no right way to win. Teams have had success running different schemes. Key to winning is just get more talented players.

Great discussion above! Thanks to all. Now I'm really anxious to see how our holdover players might fit into this new defense. LB has been a problem for a few years and now going to a 4/3 will make an interesting twist. I could see some benefits to all around good athletes like Armstrong or quick guys like Harold and Smith...but who knows? Football IQ may be more important. I'm not sure how the bigger guys like Lynch and Brooks fit unless they move to DE as pass rushers, but I don't see them as good fits there.

As for DBs...I have less worry about the talent as there is versatility and good all around CBs and Ss. That said...would they draft a top CB or S? Ouch...I would rather they were able to go after a major need--QB, pass rusher or WR.

Why the hell is Mike Purcell still on this team, just saw a pic of him arriving at the facility

Originally posted by ninerjok:

Why the hell is Mike Purcell still on this team, just saw a pic of him arriving at the facility

Depth. Probably gets cut around pre season.... Good one gapper. Once again funny how guys shined when the rest of the front 7 at the time was established.

If I made throw some gasoline on the edge rusher debate...we all want speed, but let's not act like Aldon was a speed demon.
We're doing a great job at being all over the place and not showing too much interest in players quite yet. Eventually we're gonna start hearing favorites leading up to the draft and those favorites are probably all smoke screens but one player, maybe lol.

I'm looking forward to hearing Troy Alkmans (I love him as an announcer along with Buck) voice in my head talking about this young D

Buckner: anywhere
Thomas: 3 technique, strong defensive end, weak defensive end
Armstead: strong defensive end
Dial: strong defensive end, nose tackle
Lynch: weak defensive end
Blair: 3 technique, weak defensive end
Mitchell: nose tackle, strong defensive end
Tank: strong defensive end
D.J. Jones: nose tackle

M = middle, W = weak, S = strong
Bowman: MLB, WLB
Brooks: SLB
Foster: WLB, MLB
Harold: SLB, weak defensive end
Smith: WLB, MLB
Armstrong: WLB

Originally posted by thl408:
The strength of Cover3 is the 8 in the box and the three deep shell. Deep down the field, the toughest throw is outside the numbers. I think this lessens the priority for the CB position. They'll still have to play some Cover1 so CBs that can man up will be desired, but what I'm getting at is that the big weakness of Cover3 are the four underneath defenders assigned to cover six zones in the passing game.

I read the discussion that was had about how Carroll used a high pick on his FS (EThomas). And it makes sense because it's an easier throw deep over the middle than it is deep outside the numbers (near sideline). In the passing game, the goal of Cover3 is to make the offense dink and dunk their way down the field. This makes the FS important so that no big plays are made down the middle. What SEA also did was spend high draft capital on their LBs (Wagner 47th, Irvin 15th overall). Those guys have to cover so much ground and minimize RAC when the short passes are completed. The CBs in Cover3 are responsible for the toughest area for the offense to throw to, which makes their importance less than the LBs imo.

Hi Thl408 and everybody, my thanks for educating me on the new defense Saleh is going to play. From this thread, I learned a lot about how Pete's system is a combination of Monte Kiffen's tampa 2 and Seifert's 3-4. I'm familiar with the tampa-2 in that it's an aggressive one gap defense, a la George perles and the "purple people eater" defense - but what I learned from this thread is how Carroll bases his defense off the tampa-2 philosophy and merges it with the 3-4, and George's Perles stunt 4-3. I didn't know that the stunt 4-3 powered the pittsburg steelers to their 4 super bowl victories under Chuck Noll. I was wondering why they hired Saleh and now I know.

I think the 2017 49er defensive success will be based on how well Solomon Thomas develops as the 3 technique Tackle, and how Pita or Aaron Lynch develops as the Leo, and how they fill that hybrid Linebacker Strong safety position. Is that hybrid linebacker/strong safety position (that John Lynch played in the tampa 2) going to be Reuben Foster's position? Every thread and article I read says Reuben be a Will linebacker. Every thread and article I read says Jimmy Ward will play the hybrid linebacker/safety position. I don't know if any of our DB's can play the hybrid linebacker/safety - I don't see any of our defensive backs with the size needed (i.e. in the Kam Chancellor size range) to play that position. The only guy I can see on the team with the same athletics as Kam's size and speed is Reuben Foster. Any thoughts on the matter?

Originally posted by Giedi:
Hi Thl408 and everybody, my thanks for educating me on the new defense Saleh is going to play. From this thread, I learned a lot about how Pete's system is a combination of Monte Kiffen's tampa 2 and Seifert's 3-4. I'm familiar with the tampa-2 in that it's an aggressive one gap defense, a la George perles and the "purple people eater" defense - but what I learned from this thread is how Carroll bases his defense off the tampa-2 philosophy and merges it with the 3-4, and George's Perles stunt 4-3. I didn't know that the stunt 4-3 powered the pittsburg steelers to their 4 super bowl victories under Chuck Noll. I was wondering why they hired Saleh and now I know.

I think the 2017 49er defensive success will be based on how well Solomon Thomas develops as the 3 technique Tackle, and how Pita or Aaron Lynch develops as the Leo, and how they fill that hybrid Linebacker Strong safety position. Is that hybrid linebacker/strong safety position (that John Lynch played in the tampa 2) going to be Reuben Foster's position? Every thread and article I read says Reuben be a Will linebacker. Every thread and article I read says Jimmy Ward will play the hybrid linebacker/safety position. I don't know if any of our DB's can play the hybrid linebacker/safety - I don't see any of our defensive backs with the size needed (i.e. in the Kam Chancellor size range) to play that position. The only guy I can see on the team with the same athletics as Kam's size and speed is Reuben Foster. Any thoughts on the matter?

there really is no one on the team like Kam Chancellor. I think there going to try Eric Reid and Jaquiski Tartt. Kam is taller and Little bigger then both but they can both cover similar to what Kam can do. It should be fun to watch. When they drafted Tartt I though they where going to use him more like sea used Kam so I'm looking forward to seeing what he can do.

Originally posted by Giedi:
Hi Thl408 and everybody, my thanks for educating me on the new defense Saleh is going to play. From this thread, I learned a lot about how Pete's system is a combination of Monte Kiffen's tampa 2 and Seifert's 3-4. I'm familiar with the tampa-2 in that it's an aggressive one gap defense, a la George perles and the "purple people eater" defense - but what I learned from this thread is how Carroll bases his defense off the tampa-2 philosophy and merges it with the 3-4, and George's Perles stunt 4-3. I didn't know that the stunt 4-3 powered the pittsburg steelers to their 4 super bowl victories under Chuck Noll. I was wondering why they hired Saleh and now I know.

I think the 2017 49er defensive success will be based on how well Solomon Thomas develops as the 3 technique Tackle, and how Pita or Aaron Lynch develops as the Leo, and how they fill that hybrid Linebacker Strong safety position. Is that hybrid linebacker/strong safety position (that John Lynch played in the tampa 2) going to be Reuben Foster's position? Every thread and article I read says Reuben be a Will linebacker. Every thread and article I read says Jimmy Ward will play the hybrid linebacker/safety position. I don't know if any of our DB's can play the hybrid linebacker/safety - I don't see any of our defensive backs with the size needed (i.e. in the Kam Chancellor size range) to play that position. The only guy I can see on the team with the same athletics as Kam's size and speed is Reuben Foster. Any thoughts on the matter?

While Tampa2 and Cover3 look similar as to how the zones are divided up for pass coverage, they are different with regards to what position is playing which zones. There's more flexibility with Cover3. The big difference though, is that Tampa2 has 7 defenders in the box, while Cover3 puts 8 in the box for run defense (when facing non-spread formations). Tampa2 also puts the focus on the CBs to be a part of the run defense since both safeties are deep. What both defense try to accomplish is the same, force the offense to work underneath, limiting explosive plays.

John Lynch was a deep safety when he played with the Bucs. He was not a LB/SS position like Kam Chancellor is in SEA's Cover3. Ward will be tried at the Free Safety spot and it seems as though it's his job to lose. Reid and Tartt will probably battle it out for that SS position that plays up close to the LoS. Foster is slotted to be the weakside LB.

Originally posted by SofaKing:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by tjd808185:
Not sure if you can bank on the cover 3. Both Jax and Atl have had to go more man to man and we saw something similar with the cover 2 where as more teams adopted it the easier it came to scheme against.

Yes. This is a big topic for me. The big success of SEA's Cover3 is similar to how the Bucs ran Tampa2. Coaches from that system got poached. The system spread around the NFL. Offenses faced it more often, and more and more ways were found to beat it (Tampa2). I can see the exact same thing happen to SEA's Cover3 fad. But when you think about it, it was the players that made the Bucs Tampa2 so great (Sapp, SRice, Brooks, RBarber, Lynch, etc). Same can be said of SEA's Cover3 and their top talent in 2012-15.

Goes to show there's no right way to win. Teams have had success running different schemes. Key to winning is just get more talented players.

Let's all be honest though. As 49er fans, we want to turn a blind eye, but without cowboy running stunts, how many sacks wou,d Alton have got? We got away with murder that year honestly.

Based on our current roster, do you guys think we are better suited for a 3-4 or 4-3? If we can't get a pass rush this year, maybe we convert back and dump Saleh. Either way we need an edge rusher it seems.

Not sure what to do with Solly though?

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Based on our current roster, do you guys think we are better suited for a 3-4 or 4-3? If we can't get a pass rush this year, maybe we convert back and dump Saleh. Either way we need an edge rusher it seems.

Not sure what to do with Solly though?

AA Warner and foster would be fine. We'd need another DE, NT and at least 3 OLB's plus depth.

UM....it's a trick question. nobody fits on a 4-3 if they can't tackle.

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Based on our current roster, do you guys think we are better suited for a 3-4 or 4-3? If we can't get a pass rush this year, maybe we convert back and dump Saleh. Either way we need an edge rusher it seems.

Not sure what to do with Solly though?

Whether their hands are in the dirt or they are standing up, we have very few rushers. It ain't the scheme. It's combination of talent, our coordinator, and perhaps even the way they are teaching these guys to tackle based on these rule changes. That last idea is the only sound answer I can come up with for what we've seen.

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
Whether their hands are in the dirt or they are standing up, we have very few rushers. It ain't the scheme. It's combination of talent, our coordinator, and perhaps even the way they are teaching these guys to tackle based on these rule changes. That last idea is the only sound answer I can come up with for what we've seen.

Exactly. The lines between 4-3 and 3-4 are blurred nowadays because nobody plays a true 3-4. This is a passing league. Teams want guys that can get after the QB.

The only advantage I like about 3-4 is that the edge play standing up, which allows them to plant and drive easier into space when zone blitzing. But Saleh and these schemes already do that here with the edge, so that removes that advantage.

Originally posted by lamontb:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Based on our current roster, do you guys think we are better suited for a 3-4 or 4-3? If we can't get a pass rush this year, maybe we convert back and dump Saleh. Either way we need an edge rusher it seems.

Not sure what to do with Solly though?

AA Warner and foster would be fine. We'd need another DE, NT and at least 3 OLB's plus depth.

Buck can't play DE? Why can't he fill a role like Justin Smith.