49ers Week 2 2016 - Thoughts after rewatching the game... | Page 11

Marvin49 · 2016-09-19T10:35:48-07:00

Well that was predictable. 1) Gabbert: ................................... Where do I start? I have to start by giving it up for when he does something well. The TD to Torrey was nice. The first down throw to Streater just before it was nice. The TD to Vance was nice even though Vance did most of the work. The drop by Vance was also a fairly nice throw even though it would have been a difficult catch. The rest was average to pretty bad. Gabbert is hurting them with inaccuracy, rushing through his progressions and not letting plays develop, and what REALLY stood out to me is that he's even killing the run game. The read option only works if the QB is an actual threat to run the ball. There were AT LEAST 4-5 times that he handed off when he had space in front of him to run if he'd held the ball. In most of those cases the handoff to the RB was blown up for a loss or no gain. The first one was the run in which Draughn lost 5 yards on their first possession of the game. Huge hole for the QB to run. It happened AGAIN on Draughns SECOND run of the game. It happened AGAIN with several Hyde runs. It also happened on his TD run where he went in untouched. It looked good, didn't it? Well that run had been there ALL DAY because they knew if the LB just stood anywhere close to that hole, the QB was handing off. That (amongst other things) IMO KILLED the run game. What looked really clear to me though was that Chips scheme was working. The plays were there to be made. Gabbert had time (more on that later) and guys were open. Gabbert simply couldn't deliver the ball. Gabbert isn't the guy. Plain and simple. I dunno that Kap is but I'd like to see what he can do. Reality tho IMO is that the earliest we would see Kap without a Gabbert injury is week 5. Dunno why, but thats my guess. 2) O-Line: Lost in the madness is just how damn good the O-Line played yesterday in Pass Protection. Say what you want about Gabberts performance, but it wasn't because he was under pressure all day. The only tie they game up a sack was when...wait for it....Marcus Martin subbed into the game. This is another reason I'd like to see what Kap can do. If they can protect him, maybe Kap can push the ball down the field like he did in 2012. Dunno if it would work but I'd like to see them try. 3) McDonald: So in just a few plays we saw why many here really want to see him play more and then show why so many can't stand the guy. The TD displayed the raw athletic ability the guy has. Not many TDs could have outrun the D like that. The drop however was bad. In fairness it would have been a tough catch as it was on his fingertips, but it was a tough catch he should have made. 4) Pass Rush: What pass rush? Niners need help bad at OLB. Those guys are supposed to be your pass rusher supremes and they are doing nothing. This will get better when Lynch returns, but we got 2 more games of this. Conditions were certainly an issue (and that works both ways), but the lack of a pass rush was a big problem. 5) Bethea: Ouch. He had a few good plays in there (INT, caused fumble), but man that guy got torched yesterday. I've been him play as poorly as he did on a few of those plays. Hope thats an aberration and not a sign of age. Tartt is in the wings if he plays poorly, but hoping Bethea still has something left. 6) Garnett: Why didn't Garnett sub in instead of Martin? Last week excuse was that Martin plays more positions so Garnett was inactive...but Garnett was up for this game. Thats a concern. 7) Defense in General vs Kelly Scheme: So...we've all heard about how Chips scheme puts the D on the field too long because they run fast and don't burn any clock. Well that wasn't an excuse yesterday. Chip was using his scheme for sure but he wasn't running NEARLY as fast as he likes to. He knew the conditions were going to be a problem and ADJUSTED. What killed that D were the conditions and the O being unable to sustain drives. If you burn every second of time off the play clock between plays but can't stay on the field, the D is gonna tire. There are a lot of nice pieces on that side of the ball. Cam Newton was the MVP last year for a reason. 8) Run Game: So I've already gone over what IMO is Gabberts role in the poor run game. The other aspect was Those monster DTs and LBs just blowing up the entire middle of the line. Some of that is to be expected as even though they game up some yards vs Denver, thats more of an aberration than the norm. The other guys get paid too and the Niners open the season with a murderers row of front 7s in the Rams, Panthers, and 'hawks. I would though like to see Garnett in there for Beadles. more power up front. 9) Seattle: Seattle is struggling, but I'm not in any way thinking this is a slam dunk. They'll be pissed and in their house. Good news is that sound shouldn't be the issue it once was as everything now is based on hand signals. Getting to the line quickly and snapping the ball may even slow down the crowd. Remains to be seen however. Seattle's D is just if not more ferocious than Carolinas, but the O isn't playing like Carolinas. They don't have 6'5" walking mismatches at WR. Should be interesting. I'd still bet on a Seattle win, but it's not nearly the sure thing I though it might have been before the season started. 10) Team weaknesses: When people asked me after the Rams game what I though, I pretty much game them the same answer every time. I came away viewing them pretty much exactly the way I viewed them going in. Better than people think, some really young and talented defenders, need at OLB, and desperate need at QB and WR. I didn't expect 28-0, but all of those weaknesses showed up even in week 1. In week 2 they were REALLY on display, QB in particular. In the past I've been an advocate of looking at stats to make my points. I did this in particular with Alex Smith. With Gabbert, the stats really lie. There were some good throws in there, but for SO MUCH of the game he was just KILLING them with his unwillingness to keep on the run, make an accurate short pass, or just sit in the pocket and let a play develop. So frustrating.

Sep 19, 2016 at 2:04 PM

#151

NCommand
Hall of Fame
Posts: 123,365

Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by a49erfan77:
LOL at you guys saying Chip's scheme is 'figured out.' If that was the case we wouldn't have had wide open receivers for Gabbert to consistently miss.

He "missed" 5 times out of 36 attempts. The rest were completed, dropped or were on target but defended well. I would suggest that is not "consistently missing."

I don't know if fans have a real context to compare to. Maybe you can do an analysis of Cam this game since he's the reigning MVP.

Sep 19, 2016 at 2:06 PM

#152

AZ9er
Veteran
Posts: 6,887

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by a49erfan77:

Originally posted by thl408:
Here are two plays I thought Gabbert did the right thing to hand off even though the result of the play ended up being very bad (tackle for loss).
Most zone read plays have the backside DE as the key defender and if the QB keeps, then he runs to the edge where the DE came from. Here, the 49ers key the DT (KShort). So Gabbert needs to read his own running lane, but the running lane is now up the A gap - right up the middle.

So if Short is his read on this play, and Short is unblocked heading straight for the HB, shouldn't the read be to not hand it off here?

Gabbert also sees an unblocked LB right where he is supposed to run. Are you suggesting he keeps the ball and runs up the middle into the MLB? Forget 59 because Gabbert probably doesn't see him, but 58 is just sitting there. Check out Gabbert's TD run and you'll see when it's the right decision to keep the ball.

Okay super naive question for those saying the hand off was the correct read on the play.

In an option offense such as this, is it ever beneficial for the QB to run on an iffy read such as this to try and keep the defenses honest, on there toes? If the QB holds on get the line of scrimmage or short gain does that affect the defense the next time the play is run?

Sep 19, 2016 at 2:08 PM

#153

Willisfn4life
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Posts: 7,337

Originally posted by NYniner85:
Not if he's stepping the opposite way, I agree that play was not going anywhere either way but I saw a lot of miss read options by our QB yesterday.....is what it is he's the guy this season.

From what I saw at the game, I have said the same thing in this thread...

. But my eye was specifically watching for other things too so that's why I'm waiting for the All22.

I just don't think he was getting past Kuechly there because Kuechly is never too far from taking a direct angle however I do think there were times that Blaine could have tuck and ran yesterday with space to move.

Sep 19, 2016 at 2:08 PM

#154

jcs
Veteran
Posts: 39,864

Originally posted by ayleswbj11:
Gabbert may see the field but he can't pull the trigger, YPA is a huge stat to judge a Qb on and his is down right abysmal. In this particular offense I would love to see Kap. He is super comfortable with what's going on as he stated it's very similar to what he ran at Nevada. He still is the best option, he played last year with 3 major injuries. Put a healthy Kap out there any day over a healthy Gabbert.

YPA in this offense has more to do with Scheme. Our HC loves WR screens even if they hinder us.

Sep 19, 2016 at 2:09 PM

#155

Jcool
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Posts: 44,532

Originally posted by Willisfn4life:
Your right. He does shift towards the right but in my opinion he never shifts so far that he was out of position or wouldn't have had time to recover. If you look, he wasn't even shifted beyond the hashmark when there was no question who had the ball. We might just have to agree to disagree in this Jcool.

Plus it looks like in the beginning of the play without seeing the whole cut Tre Boston was just behind Davis and may have been in position anyhow.

I am not trying to say it ends up with a first down. But I just think the odds are better for something positive if he had kept the ball. Which he did in the preseason but so far always hands it off in the first two games.

Sep 19, 2016 at 2:12 PM

#156

jcs
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Posts: 39,864

Originally posted by iLL49er:
that doesn't really tell me much, they were atrocious in the rams game except for a couple of drives and the same thing in panthers game. the offense has an amazing amount of 3 and outs and the defense is pouncing on the plays...then once in a while he hits them w/ an explosive play. this isn't sustainable..it's a mirror of what the eagles were struggling with as well as chip started to lose way more games than he won

Yesterday was a different game than the rams. We had 28 first downs against the rams so you can't say we have had a ton of 3 and outs this season.

Sep 19, 2016 at 2:18 PM

#157

Willisfn4life
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Posts: 7,337

Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by Willisfn4life:
Originally posted by NYniner85:
it's all about getting that LB to have that one step in the wrong direction in the read option. It was a close call for sure I think it could have been positive yards if he kept it, He's not Foles running lol.

regardless he missed some read options and had what like 10 yards rushing? No sense even running it if the QB isn't a threat to run, that was the issue with Bradford last year.

end of the day Carolina has a bunch of studs on defense we weren't gonna win this one...once we get a real QB I think this offense can be top 10
I know what your saying but even one step the other way if Gabbert has to run around Staley, Kuechly is arguably the best middle linebacker in the league. Just looks to me that by the time Gabbert ran wide of Staley, Kuechly would have had the angle on him.

Gabbert will have to tuck and run on the zone reads at times to keep defenses honest, I just don't think on that particular run if he had, much would have come of it.

Ya see...I' keep seeing this argument and while I understand that Gabbert may not have a great shot one on one against a LB its far better than what the RB is facing running sideways looking for a hole.

No, you don't want your QB going head up 1 on 1 with a LB, but this is the design of the offense. If you don't like it, fine, but for it to work the QB has to be willing to keep it and run.

Now I don't know the read so perhaps his read was correct, but what I saw was ALOT more space for him to make a play than the player he handed the ball to.

I've had your back in this thread Marvin but on this play I dont think anything happens regardless. Kuechly never really budges much towards the right ( his left) until he sees who the runner is. If Gabbert holds and trys to go around Staley I think Kuechly still has the angle and at first Draughn looks like he'll get positive yardage until the split second he takes the ball and Trent Brown gets blown up. I think Gabbert had times yesterday to make plays with his feet, I just don't see it on this particular one.

[ Edited by Willisfn4life on Sep 19, 2016 at 2:19 PM ]

Sep 19, 2016 at 2:21 PM

#158

951NINER
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Posts: 2,906

Originally posted by Method:
I think you're being awfully hard on gabbert. There were some other throws to make but he put up 27 points in a brand new offense in week 2. Could have been more if Vance doesn't drop a perfectly thrown pass in his hands.

And imo, Hyde was terrible yesterday. There were holes created but he either tried cutting outside or didn't hit them hard so made minimal gains. Plus his fumble to Carolina td was the worst play a rb could make. He has to step up.

I agree with Method. Everyone was waiting for a loss tied in with an INT from Gabbert to start the bashing again. Carolina's defense is very good especially at home. It doesn't help with Hyde giving them 7 points. As I've mentioned before the drop from Vance resulted in Gabbert's first INT. That's a 6-14 point swing if Vance takes it to the house again which looked like he very well could.

We knew that to win this game and keep up with Cam we would have to score some points. Which we did. Defense and special teams are part of the equation.

Sep 19, 2016 at 2:21 PM

#159

Marvin49
Hall of Fame
Posts: 16,506

Originally posted by Willisfn4life:

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Originally posted by Willisfn4life:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
it's all about getting that LB to have that one step in the wrong direction in the read option. It was a close call for sure I think it could have been positive yards if he kept it, He's not Foles running lol.

regardless he missed some read options and had what like 10 yards rushing? No sense even running it if the QB isn't a threat to run, that was the issue with Bradford last year.

end of the day Carolina has a bunch of studs on defense we weren't gonna win this one...once we get a real QB I think this offense can be top 10
I know what your saying but even one step the other way if Gabbert has to run around Staley, Kuechly is arguably the best middle linebacker in the league. Just looks to me that by the time Gabbert ran wide of Staley, Kuechly would have had the angle on him.

Gabbert will have to tuck and run on the zone reads at times to keep defenses honest, I just don't think on that particular run if he had, much would have come of it.

Ya see...I' keep seeing this argument and while I understand that Gabbert may not have a great shot one on one against a LB its far better than what the RB is facing running sideways looking for a hole.

No, you don't want your QB going head up 1 on 1 with a LB, but this is the design of the offense. If you don't like it, fine, but for it to work the QB has to be willing to keep it and run.

Now I don't know the read so perhaps his read was correct, but what I saw was ALOT more space for him to make a play than the player he handed the ball to.

I've had your back in this thread Marvin but on this play I dont think anything happens regardless. Kuechly never really budges much towards the right ( his left) until he sees who the runner is. If Gabbert holds and trys to go around Staley I think Kuechly still has the angle and at first Draughn looks like he'll get positive yardage until the split second he takes the ball and Trent Brown gets blown up. I think Gabbert had times yesterday to make plays with his feet, I just don't see it on this particular one.

Wait...people on the webzone watch the same play and see something different? SHOCKING. :D

No worries. Agree to disagree.

Sep 19, 2016 at 2:25 PM

#160

Marvin49
Hall of Fame
Posts: 16,506

Originally posted by 951NINER:

Originally posted by Method:
I think you're being awfully hard on gabbert. There were some other throws to make but he put up 27 points in a brand new offense in week 2. Could have been more if Vance doesn't drop a perfectly thrown pass in his hands.

And imo, Hyde was terrible yesterday. There were holes created but he either tried cutting outside or didn't hit them hard so made minimal gains. Plus his fumble to Carolina td was the worst play a rb could make. He has to step up.

I agree with Method. Everyone was waiting for a loss tied in with an INT from Gabbert to start the bashing again. Carolina's defense is very good especially at home. It doesn't help with Hyde giving them 7 points. As I've mentioned before the drop from Vance resulted in Gabbert's first INT. That's a 6-14 point swing if Vance takes it to the house again which looked like he very well could.

We knew that to win this game and keep up with Cam we would have to score some points. Which we did. Defense and special teams are part of the equation.

To be real...the INTs had very little to do with my frustration as they were really at the tail end of the game and even though they got close on the scoreboard, the game had effectively been decided. He was trying to make something happen.

My frustration is throwing the ball into the dirt on 3rd down. My frustration is overthrowing receivers who are open by 10 yards. Those are all convertible plays that extend drives. He's done it for 2 games now. Maybe he gets better but I've seen nothing to suggest that.

Sep 19, 2016 at 2:28 PM

#161

Willisfn4life
Veteran
Posts: 7,337

Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by Willisfn4life:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by Willisfn4life:
Originally posted by NYniner85:
it's all about getting that LB to have that one step in the wrong direction in the read option. It was a close call for sure I think it could have been positive yards if he kept it, He's not Foles running lol.

regardless he missed some read options and had what like 10 yards rushing? No sense even running it if the QB isn't a threat to run, that was the issue with Bradford last year.

end of the day Carolina has a bunch of studs on defense we weren't gonna win this one...once we get a real QB I think this offense can be top 10
I know what your saying but even one step the other way if Gabbert has to run around Staley, Kuechly is arguably the best middle linebacker in the league. Just looks to me that by the time Gabbert ran wide of Staley, Kuechly would have had the angle on him.

Gabbert will have to tuck and run on the zone reads at times to keep defenses honest, I just don't think on that particular run if he had, much would have come of it.

Ya see...I' keep seeing this argument and while I understand that Gabbert may not have a great shot one on one against a LB its far better than what the RB is facing running sideways looking for a hole.

No, you don't want your QB going head up 1 on 1 with a LB, but this is the design of the offense. If you don't like it, fine, but for it to work the QB has to be willing to keep it and run.

Now I don't know the read so perhaps his read was correct, but what I saw was ALOT more space for him to make a play than the player he handed the ball to.

I've had your back in this thread Marvin but on this play I dont think anything happens regardless. Kuechly never really budges much towards the right ( his left) until he sees who the runner is. If Gabbert holds and trys to go around Staley I think Kuechly still has the angle and at first Draughn looks like he'll get positive yardage until the split second he takes the ball and Trent Brown gets blown up. I think Gabbert had times yesterday to make plays with his feet, I just don't see it on this particular one.

Wait...people on the webzone watch the same play and see something different? SHOCKING. :D

No worries. Agree to disagree.

As consistent as the world is to spin

.

Wouldn't be a fun debate if we did all see the same thing...

Sep 19, 2016 at 2:30 PM

#162

jcs
Veteran
Posts: 39,864

Originally posted by SofaKing:
I'm intrigued to see how they deal with these tactics as well.

Honestly, my thinking would be the QB and WRs simply have to make more plays. Put more positive plays on film and defenses will adjust accordingly. Using a linebacker to both play the box and slot is a sign of disrespect to the passing game imo.

I doubt Carolina would line up that linebacker off a Randall Cobb, or Julian Edelman. They'd probably sub him out for a DB and cover head on, which would probably making running easier with one less LB in the box.

Speaks volumes as to how much people respect our receivers.

Sep 19, 2016 at 2:31 PM

#163

NYniner85
Veteran
Posts: 119,077

Originally posted by Marvin49:
Wait...people on the webzone watch the same play and see something different? SHOCKING. :D

No worries. Agree to disagree.

This lol

Sep 19, 2016 at 2:31 PM

#164

jcs
Veteran
Posts: 39,864

Originally posted by thl408:
Didn't mean to divert the thread towards a few running plays. I thought the defense played well in the 1st half save for the Olsen TD given up by Bethea. It seemed like CAR wanted to isolate Bethea on 1v1 matchups. I can see this becoming a theme so JoN is going to have to adjust accordingly. I still want Bethea on the field for his other attributes, but 1v1 man coverage is not what he should be doing.

49ers sure miss Lynch. That's two games now with almost zero edge pressure except for a a couple nice plays from Brooks.

How much 1v1 did Reid do yesterday? I would have him on TE's from now on.

Sep 19, 2016 at 2:32 PM

#165

951NINER
Veteran
Posts: 2,906

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Originally posted by 951NINER:

Originally posted by Method:
I think you're being awfully hard on gabbert. There were some other throws to make but he put up 27 points in a brand new offense in week 2. Could have been more if Vance doesn't drop a perfectly thrown pass in his hands.

And imo, Hyde was terrible yesterday. There were holes created but he either tried cutting outside or didn't hit them hard so made minimal gains. Plus his fumble to Carolina td was the worst play a rb could make. He has to step up.

I agree with Method. Everyone was waiting for a loss tied in with an INT from Gabbert to start the bashing again. Carolina's defense is very good especially at home. It doesn't help with Hyde giving them 7 points. As I've mentioned before the drop from Vance resulted in Gabbert's first INT. That's a 6-14 point swing if Vance takes it to the house again which looked like he very well could.

We knew that to win this game and keep up with Cam we would have to score some points. Which we did. Defense and special teams are part of the equation.

To be real...the INTs had very little to do with my frustration as they were really at the tail end of the game and even though they got close on the scoreboard, the game had effectively been decided. He was trying to make something happen.

My frustration is throwing the ball into the dirt on 3rd down. My frustration is overthrowing receivers who are open by 10 yards. Those are all convertible plays that extend drives. He's done it for 2 games now. Maybe he gets better but I've seen nothing to suggest that.

Can't disagree with some of the accuracy issues. I believe a part of that is getting comfortable with the receivers. I believe he's developed some chemistry with Torrey and Vance. Blaine mentioned after the game that he's working on the chemistry with Kerley. Keep in mind the receiving corp. he using in this new system. This is not Geep Chryst we're talking about now. We have to keep things in perspective when you're facing 3 top defenses in a row. STL, CAR and now SEA. We're still putting up points. STL showed you yesterday that their defense is top tier.