The Hayne Thread version 3,142

Originally posted by Zealot:
Nah, not really, I think of it as being realistic, or at least entertaining other potential outcomes. I happen to see it as a real possibility that Hayne may be waived or placed on the PS, but there's a lot of variables involved. I also think he can make the team but his performance is going to have to be much, much better this year. Just my opinion. Better coaching should see improvement from everyone, not just Hayne, and I'd expect them to have much higher expectations and standards than the previous regime, so coaches can be both good and bad for a player in Hayne's position, or where I see him positioned.

One thing is for sure, I'm definitely not stressed or wringing hands over Hayne and whether he makes it or not. I support the guy, sure, and full marks to him for what he's done/doing, but I'm not all that emotionally invested in the outcome.

I am particularly if he is not judged fairly as with what happened last year under McGaughey and all the other know it alls who criticised him unfairly. I really don't know what you are worried about. It does not seem realistic to me to think he needs to be so much better or he wont cut it. He did fine in his first year under very bad coaching. He did better then any other rookie and is rated as an average RB across the league. Your opinion assumes the fact that he is stagnant on the learning curve when nothing more could be further from the true. Hayne rocketed up the learning curve last year and is still nowhere near the top. There is no rational basis for your pessimism my friend. You need to have that evidentiary bases and a chain of rational detection flowing from the evidence to have your opinion validated as "realistic".

Please re think :)

Originally posted by bewdynewkJH38:

Originally posted by Goatie:

Originally posted by 4x4niner:
Queenslanders can still be fickle about haynes connection with the blues, give them time, in fact it should be New South Wales that have at least a few #38's attire, might be the Qld hayne supporters are wearing theirs behind closed doors and those that are wearing niners with other players names are silently supporting him.

The opinion of QLDers who are further north that the Brisbane/Ipswich Line just don't matter about Hayne. The sun that far north makes their brains boil and only nasty and weird stuff comes from their mouths about Hayne and others.

Don't let them get to you mate lol

This is not accurate. I live north of that line and do not suffer from any of the symptoms you mentioned. I was born in NSW though

Hayne

You being born in NSW excludes you from the rule. Being born in NSW socialises your brain to be resistant to thinking in that way. Hence weird and nasty stuff wont emanate from your mouth about Hayne, save the odd outburst

Originally posted by J_Train:

Same. Slater > Hayne. Get over it Parra fans.

You'd have to think that some NFL experience he has now would put him in a better position then when he first tried out.

Definitely. But that experience also means higher expectations on him from the coaches, or at least it should. Coaches want to see improvement equal or ahead of the time and effort they need to invest in a particular player, especially in this cut-throat league. That's the question for Hayne. Can he show the improvement expected of him while at the same time beating out the competition for his place on the team?

Like a few others here, I don't know why he isn't already back in the states hard at it. Maybe he's got some hardcore program going on here that no one knows about, but I think study and specific position coaching would be more beneficial leading into the new season than physical conditioning.

I dunno. Only time will tell.

Originally posted by Zealot:

Originally posted by J_Train:
Same. Slater > Hayne. Get over it Parra fans.

You'd have to think that some NFL experience he has now would put him in a better position then when he first tried out.

Definitely. But that experience also means higher expectations on him from the coaches, or at least it should. Coaches want to see improvement equal or ahead of the time and effort they need to invest in a particular player, especially in this cut-throat league. That's the question for Hayne. Can he show the improvement expected of him while at the same time beating out the competition for his place on the team?

Like a few others here, I don't know why he isn't already back in the states hard at it. Maybe he's got some hardcore program going on here that no one knows about, but I think study and specific position coaching would be more beneficial leading into the new season than physical conditioning.

I dunno. Only time will tell.

In regard to the first bolded point - again this is where you assume wrong. Hayne performed better than any other Rookie Running Back in the team last season on stats. You assume that his play improvement is static. It is not. He has improved enormously from the beginning of the preseason to the last two games in RB technique. It was so obvious. Your problem is you are judging him against Draughn and Harris who have around 4 - 5 seasons each of experience. Such a comparison is not valid and hence your deductive process is crippled by this fallacy. He is moving upward quite rapidly on a learning curve and will move faster when under better coaching and direction. He will work wonderfully well in Chip's offensive plays particularly with his style of zone blocking which creates routes from making the defence over anticipate. Furthermore Hayne will be trained by Chip to play some interesting inside and outside zone reads to work well with the zone blocking plays. You fail to see this.

In regard to the second highlighted point, the preseason coaching does not start until early April so there is No Need for him to be there. He cannot talk to coaches about football until after that date on NFL rules.

He can train just as well in Australia as he can in the US at the moment and that is exactly what he has been doing. You point in this regard has no basis

Originally posted by Goatie:

I am particularly if he is not judged fairly as with what happened last year under McGaughey and all the other know it alls who criticised him unfairly. I really don't know what you are worried about. It does not seem realistic to me to think he needs to be so much better or he wont cut it. He did fine in his first year under very bad coaching. He did better then any other rookie and is rated as an average RB across the league. Your opinion assumes the fact that he is stagnant on the learning curve when nothing more could be further from the true. Hayne rocketed up the learning curve last year and is still nowhere near the top. There is no rational basis for your pessimism my friend. You need to have that evidentiary bases and a chain of rational detection flowing from the evidence to have your opinion validated as "realistic".

Please re think :)

Rather than being pessimistic, I prefer to think I'm keeping my options open. I didn't say hes not gonna make it, just that I can see the possibility that he won't as being a real one. It doesn't really feel like a stretch to me based on what I saw last year.

When I say his performance needs to be better, I don't mean in terms of physical prowess, there's no doubt in that area. It's more in terms of decision making, situational awareness and game smarts specific to the roles he is expected to fulfil. If what many have said about his coaches being so inept and unable to impart the required knowledge is true, then would it not be reasonable to say Hayne may actually be behind in that area? We all saw Gabbert tugging on his arm on that play against Detroit. In any case, those things aren't necessarily easy to teach, because in 99.9% of cases, players have 15+ years of experience making it less necessary to focus on those things like they may need to with Hayne purely due to his lack of NFL experience.

I guess what it boils down to is, can Hayne continue to assimilate the knowledge and demonstrate the required practical outcomes to 1. Satisfy the coaches 2. Beat out whoever will compete with him for roster places 3. Translate what he learns in training to real game performance.

We await the answers.

Originally posted by Goatie:

In regard to the second highlighted point, the preseason coaching does not start until early April so there is No Need for him to be there. He cannot talk to coaches about football until after that date on NFL rules.

He can train just as well in Australia as he can in the US at the moment and that is exactly what he has been doing. You point in this regard has no basis

There are football training facilities that players can attend at their own discretion. It's official team training that is restricted prior to April. I'm sure you recall that photo of Kap and several other blokes lined up showing off their abs with Hayne at the back? That's the kind of training I was talking about.

Originally posted by Zealot:
There are football training facilities that players can attend at their own discretion. It's official team training that is restricted prior to April. I'm sure you recall that photo of Kap and several other blokes lined up showing off their abs with Hayne at the back? That's the kind of training I was talking about.

Oh sure. But there is nothing stopping him doing it here and quite discretely. It would only cost him an airfare, accommodation and wages to get a couple of good free agent personal football trainers over here to help him with that and most likely in weather better suited to endurance, ie being hot.

You don't want to make it easy for spies you know.

Originally posted by Goatie:

Oh sure. But there is nothing stopping him doing it here and quite discretely. It would only cost him an airfare, accommodation and wages to get a couple of good free agent personal football trainers over here to help him with that and most likely in weather better suited to endurance, ie being hot.

You don't want to make it easy for spies you know.

Yeah, that's a possibility.

I will say this though, I see our conversation as more a discussion of different points of view, rather than who is right or wrong. I don't see the view I presented as "right" and yours "wrong" just that either could be right or wrong, depending on how things play out. Obviously, what you say about Hayne slotting in well with Chip's scheme and having a stellar year is the ideal outcome for any 49er fan, let alone Hayne fan and I'd be happy to see that outcome. What I've said is just another possibility that no one ought to hope for as it means failure for Hayne and a waste of time and resources for the Niners, something no one wants, whether you're a pure 9er fan or someone who flew in on the Hayne Plane.

Originally posted by Zealot:
Rather than being pessimistic, I prefer to think I'm keeping my options open. I didn't say hes not gonna make it, just that I can see the possibility that he won't as being a real one. It doesn't really feel like a stretch to me based on what I saw last year.

When I say his performance needs to be better, I don't mean in terms of physical prowess, there's no doubt in that area. It's more in terms of decision making, situational awareness and game smarts specific to the roles he is expected to fulfil. If what many have said about his coaches being so inept and unable to impart the required knowledge is true, then would it not be reasonable to say Hayne may actually be behind in that area? We all saw Gabbert tugging on his arm on that play against Detroit. In any case, those things aren't necessarily easy to teach, because in 99.9% of cases, players have 15+ years of experience making it less necessary to focus on those things like they may need to with Hayne purely due to his lack of NFL experience.

I guess what it boils down to is, can Hayne continue to assimilate the knowledge and demonstrate the required practical outcomes to 1. Satisfy the coaches 2. Beat out whoever will compete with him for roster places 3. Translate what he learns in training to real game performance.

We await the answers.

You are failing to properly apportion "risk" to possibilities and hence your over focus on negative possibilities when assessing potential outcomes. From what I see you attribute to much to the possibility that he will fail and thus your assessment is overly negative.

The reality is that Hayne HAS played remarkable well for someone with ZERO American Football experience at the beginning of last April. From that point he has continued to improve beyond expectation to the end of the season. He is now at the point where he has performed better then any other RB rookie and those other rookies had their life times filled from a small age with American Football experience. He was also better statistically, including fumble percentages, then the PR.

He is considered average as a RB in the entire league after only his first year.

There is no evidence or other indication that his ascent on the learning curve has either slow, stopped or gone negative.

He did have exceptionally poor coaching and coaches with vision last season.

This season he has better coaches and a head coach with excellent vision and dynamic and unique plays who comes from a college background and hence has an eye for developing talent. The head coach has a knack for making excellent defensive plays compared to a coach who was absolutely clueless.

The main impediment to Hayne's learning and progress is now defunct, ie exceptionally poor coaching.

Hayne does not have any injury problems.

Hayne does not have any attitude problem.

Hayne does not have any learning difficulties.

Hayne has had a number of months away from the NFL which will give him a chance to relax and allow for the many lessons learned to sink in and give him time to contemplate and mull over his experiences of the 2015 season ie let the experience sink in.

On proper consideration of all of the facts there is very little chance Hayne will do nothing but improve Your failure to properly give weight to all of the positive and negative factors involved has derailed proper reason and resulted in a flawed analysis that is overly focused on remote negative potentials that have strayed from the path of realistic outcomes.

Rather, the situation is that it is extremely likely Hayne will make the 53 roster, again, but this time with experience behind him will be much more refined and potentially a 2nd String RB with high potential of repeat scoring.

Originally posted by Zealot:

Originally posted by Goatie:
Oh sure. But there is nothing stopping him doing it here and quite discretely. It would only cost him an airfare, accommodation and wages to get a couple of good free agent personal football trainers over here to help him with that and most likely in weather better suited to endurance, ie being hot.

You don't want to make it easy for spies you know.

Yeah, that's a possibility.

I will say this though, I see our conversation as more a discussion of different points of view, rather than who is right or wrong. I don't see the view I presented as "right" and yours "wrong" just that either could be right or wrong, depending on how things play out. Obviously, what you say about Hayne slotting in well with Chip's scheme and having a stellar year is the ideal outcome for any 49er fan, let alone Hayne fan and I'd be happy to see that outcome. What I've said is just another possibility that no one ought to hope for as it means failure for Hayne and a waste of time and resources for the Niners, something no one wants, whether you're a pure 9er fan or someone who flew in on the Hayne Plane.

Yes both ideas are possible. What I am taking point with is the apportion of risk being properly attributed to the possibilities. That is the difference between you and I.

And what is ok with debating with you Zealot is there is a lack of personal attacks. That is how debates should be conducted. Props to you.

Originally posted by Goatie:

Yes both ideas are possible. What I am taking point with is the apportion of risk being properly attributed to the possibilities. That is the difference between you and I.

I'd say that accurate apportioning of risk relies somewhat on outcomes that remain to be seen. Draft and FA may play a huge part in Hayne's fortunes, possibly equally for good or bad. There's also the matter of coaches. It's been suggested that there were some personal motives from previous coaches that may have impacted on Hayne. With the exception of Rathman, we're looking at an entirely new staff who may bring certain preconceptions or biases to the table that also could be a good or bad thing for Hayne.

It's going to make for interesting times ahead in any case.

Only Goatie and Zealot here :)

Now, if Kelly could get another WR or RB to pass or receive an lateral with Hayne that would be devastating... :).. look at all the times you sea offense focused on blocking rather than passing

Originally posted by Goatie:

And what is ok with debating with you Zealot is there is a lack of personal attacks. That is how debates should be conducted. Props to you.

Thanks, I try to stick with that, sometimes fail.