Niners hire Jim O'Neil as DC

Originally posted by BillWalshField:

Jackson and his veteran staff have not only rejuvenated Haden, but the entire defense, which was splintered last season under Jim O'Neil. By the end of the season, players were complaining about their roles and the scheme.

"It was a lot of stuff that shouldn't have been talked about,'' said Haden. "Too many whispers, too many people worried about too many things. Nobody was ever worried about (just) football. There was just too many other things going on.



http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2016/05/browns_joe_haden_im_not_missin.html

Of course there were a lot of issues with the Browns organization last year but that's not an excuse for not having roles and scheme defined

Players didn't like the negative atmosphere that surrounded them there, so those complaints get magnified to other issues. We had a lot of that in Harbaugh last year, and all of last year. Fresh start, new HC who doesn't accept players not understanding their scheme. Different situation here.

Originally posted by pdizo916:

Even I can't blame Jed or Baalke for this disaster of a hire.

Sure you can, you blame him if the sun doesn't shine.

Originally posted by BillWalshField:
Jackson and his veteran staff have not only rejuvenated Haden, but the entire defense, which was splintered last season under Jim O'Neil. By the end of the season, players were complaining about their roles and the scheme.

"It was a lot of stuff that shouldn't have been talked about,'' said Haden. "Too many whispers, too many people worried about too many things. Nobody was ever worried about (just) football. There was just too many other things going on.



http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2016/05/browns_joe_haden_im_not_missin.html

Of course there were a lot of issues with the Browns organization last year but that's not an excuse for not having roles and scheme defined

I've been looking at the CLE defensive coverages and they do not seem difficult to understand. I think any complaints come from how they are playing run defense. There was some article linked earlier in this thread about how the LBs have to guess what their DL is going to do in order to understand their run fits - post snap, which is crazy. This is way too much going on post snap if it's true. Just found this article. It's an interview of Petine, but I consider it the same scheme as JoN's.


http://pro.wknr-am.tritonflex.com/common/more.php?m=49&post_id=50601
In a story written for The Cauldron and carried on si.com by Kevin Jones, a former staff member of ClevelandBrowns.com, some defensive players confided anonymously that Mike Pettine's "completely chaotic" defensive scheme is taxing their ability to think clearly on the field and that is the root of the problem with the team's last-ranked run defense.

The players told Jones the scheme is too bogged down in "trying to trick" opponents and that philosophy puts players "in the wrong position."

Jones, who had intimate access to players in his former role as a team employee, quoted one player saying, "It's an entire guessing game. Imagine trying to define mud."

In response, Pettine staunchly defended his system as tried-and-true and said coaches have simplified it, rather than made it more complicated.

"We've been running these calls, not just here in Cleveland but other places," Pettine said. "A lot of stuff we're doing is Day 1 install. I think guys start to press and search for answers and if that gets into their head and they feel like they're thinking too much …

"We try to declutter, defensively. You simplify it. You break it down to win your one on one matchup. When in doubt, whip the guy's tail across from you, then we'll find a way to make it right behind you.

"We don't teach defense like a golf swing – put your thumb here, put the ball located here and you want to get the club. That's not how we coach it."

"I'm not sure of the context of (the players' complaints). I just know we haven't changed the way that we teach it. It's simpler for some positions than others. We haven't increased the scheme workload to stop the run. We know we have calls to do it, but we need to execute."

Pettine said that in some cases, because of new players introduced to the defense, coaches have scaled back assignments and play-calls.

"A big part of coaching is understanding your players," Pettine said. "That's on us as coaches to get it taught. I do know from a call sheet standpoint … if you just took the number of calls per game plan, we're a notch lower than we were last year and even at other places we've been."

Here's the article describing how they defend their gaps and run fits. The bolded below come through on film again and again. CLE would crowd the LoS and move their box defenders around pre-snap trying to create confusion. I was mainly looking at pass plays though so I am unsure how the author of this article got his info as it pertains to run defense. I don't like how the author used the phrase, "expected to guess". I think the right word should be "expected to read". No DC is going to ask their player to guess anything.

http://www.si.com/thecauldron/2015/10/21/mike-pettine-cleveland-browns-defense-problems-afc-north
Rather than being assigned specific gaps, Cleveland's defensive linemen play different techniques based on how their offensive counterparts are blocking them. The linebackers, then, are expected to guess what technique their teammates are using, scrape through the resulting mess and make the play. Opposing offenses have identified this flaw on film and are repeatedly, week-after-week, gashing the edge of Cleveland's defense. It's a completely chaotic approach to stopping the run, and players have said—off the record—they're spending way too much timethinking, and not nearly enough time reacting.

Indeed, the defense may be too complicated for its own good—something the players have largely failed to address head on. Coordinator Jim O'Neil comes from the Pettine-Rex Ryan lineage, whereby part of the defensive philosophy is to cause pre-snap identification problems for quarterbacks and offensive linemen. It's a scheme that flourished with the Ravens, Jets and Bills but has so far failed to yield reliable results in Cleveland.

Originally posted by thl408:
Here's the article describing how they defend their gaps and run fits. The bolded below come through on film again and again. CLE would crowd the LoS and move their box defenders around pre-snap trying to create confusion. I was mainly looking at pass plays though so I am unsure how the author of this article got his info as it pertains to run defense. I don't like how the author used the phrase, "expected to guess". I think the right word should be "expected to read". No DC is going to ask their player to guess anything.

http://www.si.com/thecauldron/2015/10/21/mike-pettine-cleveland-browns-defense-problems-afc-north
Rather than being assigned specific gaps, Cleveland's defensive linemen play different techniques based on how their offensive counterparts are blocking them. The linebackers, then, are expected to guess what technique their teammates are using, scrape through the resulting mess and make the play. Opposing offenses have identified this flaw on film and are repeatedly, week-after-week, gashing the edge of Cleveland's defense. It's a completely chaotic approach to stopping the run, and players have said—off the record—they're spending way too much timethinking, and not nearly enough time reacting.

Indeed, the defense may be too complicated for its own good—something the players have largely failed to address head on. Coordinator Jim O'Neil comes from the Pettine-Rex Ryan lineage, whereby part of the defensive philosophy is to cause pre-snap identification problems for quarterbacks and offensive linemen. It's a scheme that flourished with the Ravens, Jets and Bills but has so far failed to yield reliable results in Cleveland.

All good defensive line coaches teach their players to react differently to different blocks, whether it's where the position their hips for gap integrity, or how they defeat a block once the ball declares, based on the OL's hand position when the ball declares.

There is a powerfull trend in college football that has also shown up in the NFL, that has ILBs reading the RB instead of the OGs, taking their initial play side steps off of RB movement, but directing their overall flow on the movement of the OG they see in their peripheral vision while watching the back. It is faster, but it can certainly feel like guessing at first. I'm still getting used to it, and It's been almost a year since I started working with it. In this scheme, it is the job of the back end to make the front end correct. Safeties play off of LBs, LBs play off of the DL. It's fast and effective when it works, but guys have to study, think, and communicate at practice and in meetings/films to get it habitual in a game. This is the first thing I thought of when I read the anonymous comments of the Cleveland defenders.

Originally posted by mojave45:

Originally posted by pdizo916:

Even I can't blame Jed or Baalke for this disaster of a hire.

Sure you can, you blame him if the sun doesn't shine.

Lol...honestly I think it's time to just stop responding to his posts.

Throws a negative post out there and doesn't respond back when some comments...definition of a troll.

Originally posted by thl408:

Here's the article describing how they defend their gaps and run fits. The bolded below come through on film again and again. CLE would crowd the LoS and move their box defenders around pre-snap trying to create confusion. I was mainly looking at pass plays though so I am unsure how the author of this article got his info as it pertains to run defense. I don't like how the author used the phrase, "expected to guess". I think the right word should be "expected to read". No DC is going to ask their player to guess anything.

http://www.si.com/thecauldron/2015/10/21/mike-pettine-cleveland-browns-defense-problems-afc-north
Rather than being assigned specific gaps, Cleveland's defensive linemen play different techniques based on how their offensive counterparts are blocking them. The linebackers, then, are expected to guess what technique their teammates are using, scrape through the resulting mess and make the play. Opposing offenses have identified this flaw on film and are repeatedly, week-after-week, gashing the edge of Cleveland's defense. It's a completely chaotic approach to stopping the run, and players have said—off the record—they're spending way too much timethinking, and not nearly enough time reacting.

Indeed, the defense may be too complicated for its own good—something the players have largely failed to address head on. Coordinator Jim O'Neil comes from the Pettine-Rex Ryan lineage, whereby part of the defensive philosophy is to cause pre-snap identification problems for quarterbacks and offensive linemen. It's a scheme that flourished with the Ravens, Jets and Bills but has so far failed to yield reliable results in Cleveland.

Good stuff. This is what I worry when hiring raw coordinators. Their scheme might be good but they still have to implementnand teach it right.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by mojave45:

Originally posted by pdizo916:
Even I can't blame Jed or Baalke for this disaster of a hire.

Sure you can, you blame him if the sun doesn't shine.

Lol...honestly I think it's time to just stop responding to his posts.

Throws a negative post out there and doesn't respond back when some comments...definition of a troll.

No need to call him names for just stating his opinion.

My main concern about Oneil is that he wasn't our first pick. I wont be surprised if he is fired within a year if we get a respectable number of wins but our defense regresses.

Originally posted by Joecool:
My main concern about Oneil is that he wasn't our first pick. I wont be surprised if he is fired within a year if we get a respectable number of wins but our defense regresses.

Vrabel has no experience, it was better that he didn't except the job. Not that O'neil will be better. but we do need some DC Experience

Originally posted by WRATHman44:
All good defensive line coaches teach their players to react differently to different blocks, whether it's where the position their hips for gap integrity, or how they defeat a block once the ball declares, based on the OL's hand position when the ball declares.

There is a powerfull trend in college football that has also shown up in the NFL, that has ILBs reading the RB instead of the OGs, taking their initial play side steps off of RB movement, but directing their overall flow on the movement of the OG they see in their peripheral vision while watching the back. It is faster, but it can certainly feel like guessing at first. I'm still getting used to it, and It's been almost a year since I started working with it. In this scheme, it is the job of the back end to make the front end correct. Safeties play off of LBs, LBs play off of the DL. It's fast and effective when it works, but guys have to study, think, and communicate at practice and in meetings/films to get it habitual in a game. This is the first thing I thought of when I read the anonymous comments of the Cleveland defenders.

Agree that a DL can feel how he's being blocked at the snap and understand immediately what the OLman is trying to accomplish. From there, it trickles to the LBs like you stated, as they read what's going on - not "guess" as the author wrote. I know JoN comes with a lot of multiple fronts within a game (3-4 or 4-3), but I don't know if he mixes one-gap and two-gap responsibilities on any one down.

Is he asking his DL to one gap or two gap based on how that DLman is being blocked post snap? That would be very difficult. A DLman should at least know if he's one gapping or two gapping before the ball is snapped. I put a lot of stock into player testimony, and if the CLE players are saying there is something too difficult going on then I believe that, as it applies to that specific player. Something too complicated to one player might not be to another player. Pettine says he's doing the same thing he did in NYJ/BAL/BUF and those defenses seemed fine.

I like defenses that read and react. I think that's the optimal way to play defense - to be able to adjust post snap. If the players can adapt and execute, then it works. If they are thinking too much, then either they are not smart enough or the coaches aren't doing a good job teaching it.

^^^ Great discussions and information in here!

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by mojave45:

Originally posted by pdizo916:

Even I can't blame Jed or Baalke for this disaster of a hire.

Sure you can, you blame him if the sun doesn't shine.

Lol...honestly I think it's time to just stop responding to his posts.

Throws a negative post out there and doesn't respond back when some comments...definition of a troll.

Yeah, good advice. I already ignore him in the Baalke thread, but it got to he to see it so unrelated over here too . Thanks. I need to be brought back to reality about the trolls now and then.

Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Good stuff. This is what I worry when hiring raw coordinators. Their scheme might be good but they still have to implementnand teach it right.

Truth!

Originally posted by thl408:
Here's the article describing how they defend their gaps and run fits. The bolded below come through on film again and again. CLE would crowd the LoS and move their box defenders around pre-snap trying to create confusion. I was mainly looking at pass plays though so I am unsure how the author of this article got his info as it pertains to run defense. I don't like how the author used the phrase, "expected to guess". I think the right word should be "expected to read". No DC is going to ask their player to guess anything.

http://www.si.com/thecauldron/2015/10/21/mike-pettine-cleveland-browns-defense-problems-afc-north
Rather than being assigned specific gaps, Cleveland's defensive linemen play different techniques based on how their offensive counterparts are blocking them. The linebackers, then, are expected to guess what technique their teammates are using, scrape through the resulting mess and make the play. Opposing offenses have identified this flaw on film and are repeatedly, week-after-week, gashing the edge of Cleveland's defense. It's a completely chaotic approach to stopping the run, and players have said—off the record—they're spending way too much timethinking, and not nearly enough time reacting.

Indeed, the defense may be too complicated for its own good—something the players have largely failed to address head on. Coordinator Jim O'Neil comes from the Pettine-Rex Ryan lineage, whereby part of the defensive philosophy is to cause pre-snap identification problems for quarterbacks and offensive linemen. It's a scheme that flourished with the Ravens, Jets and Bills but has so far failed to yield reliable results in Cleveland.

I highly doubt anyone would base their scheme on having linebackers guess what the defensive line is doing. This seems like a misrepresentation of what was really going on.