week 5 NYG coaches film analysis thread | Page 11

jonnydel · 2015-10-13T10:57:31-07:00

Finished watching the game - there were, as always, positives and negatives to take away from the game. One thing I'll address right off the bat: There were many of us(from the broadcast, I was one of them too) who assumed that the entire game should be laid at Mangini's feet for playing a straight zone coverage most of the game. After watching the film - I saw very little spot dropping zone coverage and mostly pattern matching and man-coverage throughout the game. In fact, on the last drive of the game, that won it for NY, it was all man-cover 2 or 1 with one cover 3 zone - pattern match. We didn't have a single play of spot dropping zone. It looked like Mangini was trying everything in his tool kit to stop Eli. Sometimes, we got beat conceptually, sometimes, we blew our assignements(more often than not). It looked like no matter what Mangini tried to do, either players didn't execute their assignments or we had ZERO pass rush. There were at least a dozen(hard to keep count because Eli threw it over 50 times) where Manning got to his 5th read on the play with little pressure on him. When a QB can do that so often throughout a game, there's not much a coach can do. Harold started to get a little pressure near the end, but it wasn't enough. We got no interior pressure, none, zip, zero, natta. That put a lot of pressure on our guys when they were in man-coverage or in their pattern match. One thing with pattern match is, those short checkdowns over the middle are usually going to be open if your pass rush can't get there - and that happened a lot. What's most worrisome, for me at least, is that we played to, what should be, our players' strength - and got shredded. On offense - it was good to see us finally get into a rhythm. One thing that I think helped, was seeing more power run than in any previous game. I think that helped hit on a couple vertical plays and to be able to take a couple vertical shots. The ZBS is great, if effectively run. But, considering that our O-line really struggled in their space blocks, it was good to see some old-school power blocking with double-teams and down blocking. It really helped open up the game. Offense: Good - Kaep made some great, timing and rhythm throws in the game. There were several where he got the ball out right as he hit his back foot on a 3 step drop - that's encouraging. Also, why he can be so maddening as a player. It's like he'll tease us with greatness, then fall face down - hopefully, after this game, the arrow continues upward. Our receivers really did a good job of winning a few 1-1's. Bruce Miller - dude played very well when he was in the game. Made some great blocks, caught a couple passes and had some good, physical runs after the catch. Personally, I'd like to see a lot more Miller in the game in stead of multiple TE's. Bad - Martin....seems like same story, next chapter, every week. Got pushed around still, whiffed on some blocks and overall, played a poor game. TE's. Overall, in the game, the TE blocking was very sub-par. There was one play where McD made a great block to spring Hyde, but other than that, all 3 TE's blew blocks at some point, McD and Celek both blew blocks on multiple occasions. Celek's only saving grace was a great route run in the RZ that got a TD. Defense: Good - Lynch was solid the game. It's hard when he's the only one getting pass rush for most of the game. I thought Bowman wasn't nearly as bad as the game looked. It looked like he got exposed more than he did. The last TD, I don't put on him, Bethea played too shallow and Bow was expecting more help over-the -top, so he was in good position. It was also a great throw and catch. Bad - there was a LOT. Dorsey, Dial, Williams, Carradine, Armstead - all got tried at DT to rush the passer in passing situations and none of them generated anything of an interior rush. Eli had a clean pocket most of the night. On the times we did get pressure, those were the times when we nearly had some turnovers. It was really frustrating, if we'd been able to generate an interior rush, I think we'd have created another turnover at some point. Tartt - played a very poor game. Got whooped in man-coverage multiple times(including on 1 key play on the final drive). We even tried to sub in reaser at his spot. Also, looked lost in the pattern-match. Which, I understand he's a young guy from a small school(Samford, which is only an hour and half away from me). I've seen their defensive stuff and it's not very complex at all, so I know there's a steep learning curve for someone like him. Ward played a lot, but played OK. He's under the "bad" because the whole team gave up so much and he was at fault a couple times on key downs. He also struggled, at times, with the pattern match and knowing when and where to pass offf. He also gave up some plays in man-coverage. As usual, breakdowns to follow. Quick disclaimer: Some of the defensive breakdowns will probably be fairly long since there's a lot to discuss when talking about pattern matching, and more specifically, fails in pattern matching. Mainly, because it can be so complex that there's a lot of moving pieces to discuss. So, some of the posts on the defensive side might be coming out a little slower than normal.

Oct 14, 2015 at 12:45 PM

#151

wolfpack2192
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Posts: 1,103

After watching all these great breakdowns of the defense, it's clear we have a talent issue or the sheer lack of understanding in this system. It's like these guys bite on all the play action, or gimmicky offense stuff that's shown to them. Our safety play also looks horrible execution wise and I truly feel teams see that, and are not afraid to go deep because of it. I don't know if these things can be fixed because we're seeing players instincts here or if this stuff can be coached up?

Oct 14, 2015 at 12:50 PM

#152

Joecool
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Posts: 70,984

I don't know many QBs these days who do a lot of post snap reads. Most passes are out in less than 3 seconds. There is a reason why teams of the smarter QBs run more of a spread offense and it's because they can decipher almost any defense presnap in order to find the mismatch. Peyton Manning and Brady heavily rely on presnap. Manning more than Brady as Brady is closer to Rodgers in his ability to move in the pocket and find more open looks. Peyton is 100% presnap which is why he doesn't throw to other wide open receivers during games. I have seen him miss lots of wide open guys because his presnap read told him to throw it to another spot.

With how complicated defenses are these days and how difficult it is to get more than 3 seconds to throw, it is nearly impossible to go through progressions.

The only way a QB can go through progressions consistently is like Montana did where he already knew where he was going to throw but went through the progressions to freeze or look off the defense. Brady is very good at this.

Oct 14, 2015 at 12:54 PM

#153

SoCold
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Posts: 132,857

Originally posted by Joecool:
I don't know many QBs these days who do a lot of post snap reads. Most passes are out in less than 3 seconds. There is a reason why teams of the smarter QBs run more of a spread offense and it's because they can decipher almost any defense presnap in order to find the mismatch. Peyton Manning and Brady heavily rely on presnap. Manning more than Brady as Brady is closer to Rodgers in his ability to move in the pocket and find more open looks. Peyton is 100% presnap which is why he doesn't throw to other wide open receivers during games. I have seen him miss lots of wide open guys because his presnap read told him to throw it to another spot.

With how complicated defenses are these days and how difficult it is to get more than 3 seconds to throw, it is nearly impossible to go through progressions.

The only way a QB can go through progressions consistently is like Montana did where he already knew where he was going to throw but went through the progressions to freeze or look off the defense. Brady is very good at this.

wat? Kap had 5.5 seconds in the GB game to find the wide open Torry and he yolo'd it to Boldin for a pick.

Oct 14, 2015 at 1:05 PM

#154

NCommand
Hall of Fame
Posts: 123,365

Originally posted by wolfpack2192:
After watching all these great breakdowns of the defense, it's clear we have a talent issue or the sheer lack of understanding in this system. It's like these guys bite on all the play action, or gimmicky offense stuff that's shown to them. Our safety play also looks horrible execution wise and I truly feel teams see that, and are not afraid to go deep because of it. I don't know if these things can be fixed because we're seeing players instincts here or if this stuff can be coached up?

I just don't know why all these issues are issues suddenly when they've never been issues before (esp. with our veteran core). Talent issue? I'm not sold at all...yet.

That said, there have been some great theories as to why this has been either a collective win or a collective fail including just growing pains of learning a brand new defense.

Oct 14, 2015 at 1:24 PM

#155

Afrikan
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Posts: 23,569

Originally posted by SoCold:

Originally posted by thl408:
By the way, the plays that jonnydel and myself show in these film threads is like 1/10th of the game. If you really want to know what's going on, you have to get NFL Gamepass. Otherwise you are subject to my cherry picking of plays. I watch the entire game, but I can't cut up every play.

After seeing Kap shovel pass out of bounds for a sack I don't need more than this to know he's bad more times than good.

then there is no more need for you to be in these threads... or at least post in them... or Kap threads.

Oct 14, 2015 at 1:28 PM

#156

SoCold
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Posts: 132,857

Originally posted by Afrikan:

Originally posted by SoCold:

Originally posted by thl408:
By the way, the plays that jonnydel and myself show in these film threads is like 1/10th of the game. If you really want to know what's going on, you have to get NFL Gamepass. Otherwise you are subject to my cherry picking of plays. I watch the entire game, but I can't cut up every play.

After seeing Kap shovel pass out of bounds for a sack I don't need more than this to know he's bad more times than good.

then there is no more need for you to be in these threads... or at least post in them... or Kap threads.

No. That's not what that means at all. I'm just saying I don't need the entire game broken down into gifs and pictures with arrows to see we are sucking 60% of the time, every time.

Oct 14, 2015 at 1:36 PM

#157

Niners816
Veteran
Posts: 9,990

Originally posted by Joecool:
I don't know many QBs these days who do a lot of post snap reads. Most passes are out in less than 3 seconds. There is a reason why teams of the smarter QBs run more of a spread offense and it's because they can decipher almost any defense presnap in order to find the mismatch. Peyton Manning and Brady heavily rely on presnap. Manning more than Brady as Brady is closer to Rodgers in his ability to move in the pocket and find more open looks. Peyton is 100% presnap which is why he doesn't throw to other wide open receivers during games. I have seen him miss lots of wide open guys because his presnap read told him to throw it to another spot.

With how complicated defenses are these days and how difficult it is to get more than 3 seconds to throw, it is nearly impossible to go through progressions.

The only way a QB can go through progressions consistently is like Montana did where he already knew where he was going to throw but went through the progressions to freeze or look off the defense. Brady is very good at this.

Here is the iconic Montana play from SB24 that was highlighted on the Super Bowl highlight film. Shows him working the concept (sticks concept) before coming back to Jerry. This is the master.

Here is the play art

[ Edited by Niners816 on Oct 14, 2015 at 1:39 PM ]

Oct 14, 2015 at 1:46 PM

#158

SoCold
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Posts: 132,857

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by Joecool:
I don't know many QBs these days who do a lot of post snap reads. Most passes are out in less than 3 seconds. There is a reason why teams of the smarter QBs run more of a spread offense and it's because they can decipher almost any defense presnap in order to find the mismatch. Peyton Manning and Brady heavily rely on presnap. Manning more than Brady as Brady is closer to Rodgers in his ability to move in the pocket and find more open looks. Peyton is 100% presnap which is why he doesn't throw to other wide open receivers during games. I have seen him miss lots of wide open guys because his presnap read told him to throw it to another spot.

With how complicated defenses are these days and how difficult it is to get more than 3 seconds to throw, it is nearly impossible to go through progressions.

The only way a QB can go through progressions consistently is like Montana did where he already knew where he was going to throw but went through the progressions to freeze or look off the defense. Brady is very good at this.

Here is the iconic Montana play from SB24 that was highlighted on the Super Bowl highlight film. Shows him working the concept (sticks concept) before coming back to Jerry. This is the master.

Here is the play art

the stop watch on my phone said 3.49 s from snap to release

no joke lol

Oct 14, 2015 at 1:48 PM

#159

SoCold
Hall of Dumb
Posts: 132,857

did it some more

3.60
3.69
3.55
3.65

How could a QB read a defense in under 4 seconds!?!

Oct 14, 2015 at 1:49 PM

#160

Niners816
Veteran
Posts: 9,990

Originally posted by SoCold:
the stop watch on my phone said 3.49 s from snap to release

no joke lol

Denver rushed 3 and Joe is Joe. Joe had time to hit his 3rd option.

Oct 14, 2015 at 1:52 PM

#161

SoCold
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Posts: 132,857

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by SoCold:
the stop watch on my phone said 3.49 s from snap to release

no joke lol

Denver rushed 3 and Joe is Joe. Joe had time to hit his 3rd option.

GB rushed 3 Kap had 5.5 seconds. Never looked to the left side of the field. Interception.

How about just peeking at the other side of the field, JUST A PEEK

[ Edited by SoCold on Oct 14, 2015 at 1:53 PM ]

Oct 14, 2015 at 2:00 PM

#162

Niners816
Veteran
Posts: 9,990

Originally posted by SoCold:
GB rushed 3 Kap had 5.5 seconds. Never looked to the left side of the field. Interception.

How about just peeking at the other side of the field, JUST A PEEK

Joe was still within his progressions. Jerry was the 3rd option in the middle of the field. It's still a half field read.

Premonition denvers shows a single high safety

After motion Denver shows a 2 safety Middle open look

Joe knows middle is open and works the third read and knows there is a LBer on Jerry.

I appoligize for the graininess of the pics, this is about as close to all22 we can get for 25 year old game.

[ Edited by Niners816 on Oct 14, 2015 at 2:03 PM ]

Oct 14, 2015 at 2:05 PM

#163

jonnydel
Veteran
Posts: 9,435

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by SoCold:
IMO he's playing it just like it looks drawn up. The read is pre snap and he's already made his mind up where hes going to throw it. 3 step drop looks to the TE the entire time and throws it. He's got soft coverage on the outside and a shot at a bigger play. A much easier completion for someone with a strong arm IMO.

You've just seen the same play against different coverages go to different spots based on coverage cues. Presnap reads are reads and are necessary. So within this one concepts we've seen him go to his primary and secondary receiver.

These whole field progressions reads people expect throughout many plays just aren't the way the plays are drawn up. Most of the times it's half field reads and once you've picked your side the progressions consist of a primary, secondary and the third read is a checkdown. This is a big thing in any offense that's has any WCO roots to it.

From Bill Walsh - note how he talks about being alert for a blitz look pre-snap....the primary read is...wait for it...."pick a side"..... Doesn't the play look familiar??? Oh yeah, that was that slant/flat combo that we hit to Miller.....hmmmm....

Here's one from holmgren.... pick a side reads are part of almost every NFL offense. Just because a QB doesn't scan the entire field every play doesn't mean he's not reading the field. Sometimes, yeah, he doesn't scan the field because the first read was open. Other times, they only have 1-3, then the QB is the 4th.

Oct 14, 2015 at 2:10 PM

#164

Niners816
Veteran
Posts: 9,990

Originally posted by jonnydel:

From Bill Walsh - note how he talks about being alert for a blitz look pre-snap....the primary read is...wait for it...."pick a side"..... Doesn't the play look familiar??? Oh yeah, that was that slant/flat combo that we hit to Miller.....hmmmm....

Here's one from holmgren.... pick a side reads are part of almost every NFL offense. Just because a QB doesn't scan the entire field every play doesn't mean he's not reading the field. Sometimes, yeah, he doesn't scan the field because the first read was open. Other times, they only have 1-3, then the QB is the 4th.

Common refrain----pick a side for primary, back is outlet.

Oct 14, 2015 at 2:14 PM

#165

jonnydel
Veteran
Posts: 9,435

Originally posted by thl408:
By the way, the plays that jonnydel and myself show in these film threads is like 1/10th of the game. If you really want to know what's going on, you have to get NFL Gamepass. Otherwise you are subject to my cherry picking of plays. I watch the entire game, but I can't cut up every play.

true dat...plus, some of the plays don't really have any pertinent information - not every play is going to be super revealing of anything. I know, what I do, is watch the game, get a feel for why things worked and why they didn't and show the best examples of that. To me, if Kaep has a terrible game, like the Ari game, there's no point in showing every single failed passing attempt if they all came from the same causes - why??? If we see that the running game stunk because we struggled running right or our center got blown up on almost every run play, why should I show that happening 8 times? I show it once, show why it happened and move on.

In this game, there was a lot of good from Kaep, so yeah, we'll highlight how he moved through progressions or saw things pre-snap. One of my issues with him in 2012 was that he wasn't doing a good enough job in his pre-snap reads. You're pre-snap reads will often determine your progression: Don't believe me? Here's from Walsh's hand-

3 receivers, all listed as the primary in the progression on the play chart. However, in the notes, he says the primary is, "pick a receiver" then there are instructions as to how to pick the primary based on different "looks" from the defense - that's pre-snap looks.