week 5 NYG coaches film analysis thread | Page 13

jonnydel · 2015-10-13T10:57:31-07:00

Finished watching the game - there were, as always, positives and negatives to take away from the game. One thing I'll address right off the bat: There were many of us(from the broadcast, I was one of them too) who assumed that the entire game should be laid at Mangini's feet for playing a straight zone coverage most of the game. After watching the film - I saw very little spot dropping zone coverage and mostly pattern matching and man-coverage throughout the game. In fact, on the last drive of the game, that won it for NY, it was all man-cover 2 or 1 with one cover 3 zone - pattern match. We didn't have a single play of spot dropping zone. It looked like Mangini was trying everything in his tool kit to stop Eli. Sometimes, we got beat conceptually, sometimes, we blew our assignements(more often than not). It looked like no matter what Mangini tried to do, either players didn't execute their assignments or we had ZERO pass rush. There were at least a dozen(hard to keep count because Eli threw it over 50 times) where Manning got to his 5th read on the play with little pressure on him. When a QB can do that so often throughout a game, there's not much a coach can do. Harold started to get a little pressure near the end, but it wasn't enough. We got no interior pressure, none, zip, zero, natta. That put a lot of pressure on our guys when they were in man-coverage or in their pattern match. One thing with pattern match is, those short checkdowns over the middle are usually going to be open if your pass rush can't get there - and that happened a lot. What's most worrisome, for me at least, is that we played to, what should be, our players' strength - and got shredded. On offense - it was good to see us finally get into a rhythm. One thing that I think helped, was seeing more power run than in any previous game. I think that helped hit on a couple vertical plays and to be able to take a couple vertical shots. The ZBS is great, if effectively run. But, considering that our O-line really struggled in their space blocks, it was good to see some old-school power blocking with double-teams and down blocking. It really helped open up the game. Offense: Good - Kaep made some great, timing and rhythm throws in the game. There were several where he got the ball out right as he hit his back foot on a 3 step drop - that's encouraging. Also, why he can be so maddening as a player. It's like he'll tease us with greatness, then fall face down - hopefully, after this game, the arrow continues upward. Our receivers really did a good job of winning a few 1-1's. Bruce Miller - dude played very well when he was in the game. Made some great blocks, caught a couple passes and had some good, physical runs after the catch. Personally, I'd like to see a lot more Miller in the game in stead of multiple TE's. Bad - Martin....seems like same story, next chapter, every week. Got pushed around still, whiffed on some blocks and overall, played a poor game. TE's. Overall, in the game, the TE blocking was very sub-par. There was one play where McD made a great block to spring Hyde, but other than that, all 3 TE's blew blocks at some point, McD and Celek both blew blocks on multiple occasions. Celek's only saving grace was a great route run in the RZ that got a TD. Defense: Good - Lynch was solid the game. It's hard when he's the only one getting pass rush for most of the game. I thought Bowman wasn't nearly as bad as the game looked. It looked like he got exposed more than he did. The last TD, I don't put on him, Bethea played too shallow and Bow was expecting more help over-the -top, so he was in good position. It was also a great throw and catch. Bad - there was a LOT. Dorsey, Dial, Williams, Carradine, Armstead - all got tried at DT to rush the passer in passing situations and none of them generated anything of an interior rush. Eli had a clean pocket most of the night. On the times we did get pressure, those were the times when we nearly had some turnovers. It was really frustrating, if we'd been able to generate an interior rush, I think we'd have created another turnover at some point. Tartt - played a very poor game. Got whooped in man-coverage multiple times(including on 1 key play on the final drive). We even tried to sub in reaser at his spot. Also, looked lost in the pattern-match. Which, I understand he's a young guy from a small school(Samford, which is only an hour and half away from me). I've seen their defensive stuff and it's not very complex at all, so I know there's a steep learning curve for someone like him. Ward played a lot, but played OK. He's under the "bad" because the whole team gave up so much and he was at fault a couple times on key downs. He also struggled, at times, with the pattern match and knowing when and where to pass offf. He also gave up some plays in man-coverage. As usual, breakdowns to follow. Quick disclaimer: Some of the defensive breakdowns will probably be fairly long since there's a lot to discuss when talking about pattern matching, and more specifically, fails in pattern matching. Mainly, because it can be so complex that there's a lot of moving pieces to discuss. So, some of the posts on the defensive side might be coming out a little slower than normal.

Oct 15, 2015 at 12:05 PM

#181

thl408
Moderator
Posts: 33,377

Cover 6
Strongside safety in Quarters (Bethea)

QB completes dropback, the Quarters safety has gained 0 depth from when the ball was snapped.

The In route from the inline TE is supposed to attack the zone area behind the LBs and in front of the safety. That area doesn't exist due to the Quarters safety pattern matching.

Oct 15, 2015 at 12:11 PM

#182

thl408
Moderator
Posts: 33,377

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by thl408:
This is an example of what I meant from Fangio's safeties compressing the area that is behind the LBs and in front of the safeties. I have it handy because I've shown this play before.

Notice the depth that the safeties are aligned, about 10-12 yards. Reid is on the 35 yard line.

I'll try to show more examples of how the safeties played to help drive home the point (Fangio vs Mangini). Mangini's safeties are too far back and that's why we see the current defense get gashed over the middle to WRs that seem to be wide open.

Thl--can you comment on the safety depth in the Pittsburgh game versus the NYGs? Seemed to be getting beaten deep against the Steelers. My memory is fuzzy though. I'll check on NFL replay later if you don't have it on the tip of your mind.

When I refer to safety depth, I mean when they are aligned in their natural spot in a cover 2 shell. What they did versus PIT is not what I mean as they were at the LoS doing some unorthodox stuff pretending to blitz. We know how that turned out. I am referring to when they are at their assigned deep cover 2 spot. Versus ARI they gave up a lot of room underneath and Fitz killed it. In the play versus NYG that was shown when they played Tampa2 is another example of what I mean.

Oct 15, 2015 at 1:05 PM

#183

dtg_9er
Veteran
Posts: 33,204

Originally posted by thl408:
When I refer to safety depth, I mean when they are aligned in their natural spot in a cover 2 shell. What they did versus PIT is not what I mean as they were at the LoS doing some unorthodox stuff pretending to blitz. We know how that turned out. I am referring to when they are at their assigned deep cover 2 spot. Versus ARI they gave up a lot of room underneath and Fitz killed it. In the play versus NYG that was shown when they played Tampa2 is another example of what I mean.

Thanks! Wonder if their depth was a reaction to the mess against the Steelers? Seem to be casting about trying to find things that work, while working toward a multi-scheme defense. Still...too early for me to denounce Mangini...or the players.

[ Edited by dtg_9er on Oct 15, 2015 at 1:05 PM ]

Oct 15, 2015 at 1:12 PM

#184

OnTheClock
Hall of Fame
Posts: 38,645

Originally posted by thl408:

Zone coverage works when there is a ferocious 4 man rush, think SEA in 2013-14. For this 49er team, if it isn't Lynch it isn't anyone applying pressure. +24 yards.

In other words, Zone coverage simply won't work for us this year no matter how much Mangini wants to force it.

Oct 15, 2015 at 1:41 PM

#185

thl408
Moderator
Posts: 33,377

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by thl408:
When I refer to safety depth, I mean when they are aligned in their natural spot in a cover 2 shell. What they did versus PIT is not what I mean as they were at the LoS doing some unorthodox stuff pretending to blitz. We know how that turned out. I am referring to when they are at their assigned deep cover 2 spot. Versus ARI they gave up a lot of room underneath and Fitz killed it. In the play versus NYG that was shown when they played Tampa2 is another example of what I mean.

Thanks! Wonder if their depth was a reaction to the mess against the Steelers? Seem to be casting about trying to find things that work, while working toward a multi-scheme defense. Still...too early for me to denounce Mangini...or the players.

They're depth might be a reaction to the PIT game, although it's not that Mangini's style of zone coverage calls for the safeties to play so deep. It's that the coverage, the way it's supposed to be played, calls for the safeties to play deep. Here is STL running Tampa2. Boldin (backside WR) exploits the hole in coverage the same way it was done in post#167

______
more Tampa2

Fangio never called this coverage. Mangini likes it. Without a legit 4 man rush, I hate it. The SB winning Bucs made it work because they had Simeon Rice and Warren Sapp.

Oct 15, 2015 at 2:48 PM

#186

philosoraptor
Veteran
Posts: 4,318

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by thl408:
When I refer to safety depth, I mean when they are aligned in their natural spot in a cover 2 shell. What they did versus PIT is not what I mean as they were at the LoS doing some unorthodox stuff pretending to blitz. We know how that turned out. I am referring to when they are at their assigned deep cover 2 spot. Versus ARI they gave up a lot of room underneath and Fitz killed it. In the play versus NYG that was shown when they played Tampa2 is another example of what I mean.

Thanks! Wonder if their depth was a reaction to the mess against the Steelers? Seem to be casting about trying to find things that work, while working toward a multi-scheme defense. Still...too early for me to denounce Mangini...or the players.

Fangio never called this coverage. Mangini likes it. Without a legit 4 man rush, I hate it. The SB winning Bucs made it work because they had Simeon Rice and Warren Sapp.

Not to mention the bucs had heavy hitters on the back end so even if they did catch a pass they got laid out.

Oct 15, 2015 at 2:58 PM

#187

Luckycharms
Veteran
Posts: 950

Originally posted by thl408:
Cover 6
Strongside safety in Quarters (Bethea)

QB completes dropback, the Quarters safety has gained 0 depth from when the ball was snapped.

The In route from the inline TE is supposed to attack the zone area behind the LBs and in front of the safety. That area doesn't exist due to the Quarters safety pattern matching.

To me I just can't understand how Mangini or any DC for that matter can look at the film of our defense the past few years and want to change it, especially with the personnel we lost. If you want to tweak it and blitz a little more and add a few wrinkles then fine, but to not utilize the pattern matching scheme that most of these players have learned is just crazy to me. The coverages on the back end when we pattern matched is just a thing of beauty. To me, unless you have shut down CB's or a crazy good pass rush, Fangio's pattern match scheme is the best way to neutralize these really good QB's and high powered offenses. And we don't have shut down cb's or a really good pass rush so it should be a no brainer....

Oct 15, 2015 at 3:44 PM

#188

thl408
Moderator
Posts: 33,377

Originally posted by Luckycharms:
To me I just can't understand how Mangini or any DC for that matter can look at the film of our defense the past few years and want to change it, especially with the personnel we lost. If you want to tweak it and blitz a little more and add a few wrinkles then fine, but to not utilize the pattern matching scheme that most of these players have learned is just crazy to me. The coverages on the back end when we pattern matched is just a thing of beauty. To me, unless you have shut down CB's or a crazy good pass rush, Fangio's pattern match scheme is the best way to neutralize these really good QB's and high powered offenses. And we don't have shut down cb's or a really good pass rush so it should be a no brainer....

Completely agree. There was a good structure in place and it should have been continued - team coverage. That's why average CBs looked good in Fangio's scheme. With the loss of Aldon and Justin, two good pass rushers, a good coverage scheme should have been emphasized, not simplified.

Also gone from Mangini's scheme are split coverages where one side of the field is doing one thing, and the other side is doing another. The examples shown above of Cover6 are split coverages. With split coverages, the QB can look to one of the safeties and make a determination as to what coverage he's facing, then when he looks to the other side, he will see the other safety doing something else. I've seen Brees/Rodgers be hesitant too many times to rule out that these split coverages weren't making them think more than they are accustomed to.

Just one more example before I stop b***hing about this, for today.
2013 - Notice Reid is not aligned as a Cover1 safety. He's not in the middle of the field. TB will run a Mesh concept (man buster) and also get a High-Low read (zone buster) over the middle of the field.

When the WRs criss cross (mesh concept) the 49ers are in zone coverage so there's no pick/rub. Then when the High-Low read develops over the middle, the 49ers have morphed to man coverage so there's no stretching of zones. All this done from a split safety look. It's just a thing of beauty to watch. QB has time and doesn't know what to do with it.

Oct 15, 2015 at 4:14 PM

#189

Joecool
Veteran
Posts: 70,984

I heard either in an article or radio interview that one thing Fangio did well was provide a cheat sheet of the offenses tendencies which was what really helped our players the most.

Oct 15, 2015 at 4:37 PM

#190

NCommand
Hall of Fame
Posts: 123,365

b***h, er, preach on thl408!

The masses need to know.

Oct 15, 2015 at 5:00 PM

#191

Niners816
Veteran
Posts: 9,990

Originally posted by NCommand:
b***h, er, preach on thl408!

The masses need to know.

We have a historical habit of shelving stuff that becomes our blueprint during periods of success. The biggest blunder was straying from the WCO and Walsh's ways after the 2002 season. It was an idiotic decision and we haven't had an explosive offenses sence (lone exception being the 10 games when kap took over in 2012).

Looks like we just had our defensive version of this.

[ Edited by Niners816 on Oct 15, 2015 at 5:01 PM ]

Oct 15, 2015 at 5:04 PM

#192

NCommand
Hall of Fame
Posts: 123,365

Originally posted by Niners816:
Originally posted by NCommand:
b***h, er, preach on thl408!

The masses need to know.

We have a historical habit of shelving stuff that becomes our blueprint during periods of success. The biggest blunder was straying from the WCO and Walsh's ways after the 2002 season. It was an idiotic decision and we haven't had an explosive offenses sence (lone exception being the 10 games when kap took over in 2012).

Looks like we just had our defensive version of this.

I can't help but get so

Put your damn ego aside. Why can't coaches just BUILD off foundations of success. Proven success. And then add your own personality to it. Your talent will help guide you in that 'personality,'

Oct 15, 2015 at 5:41 PM

#193

dtg_9er
Veteran
Posts: 33,204

Originally posted by Niners816:
We have a historical habit of shelving stuff that becomes our blueprint during periods of success. The biggest blunder was straying from the WCO and Walsh's ways after the 2002 season. It was an idiotic decision and we haven't had an explosive offenses sence (lone exception being the 10 games when kap took over in 2012).

Looks like we just had our defensive version of this.

I believe that was John York wanting the team to be less Walsh than York...but that might be my selective memory again...

Oct 16, 2015 at 9:03 PM

#194

Luckycharms
Veteran
Posts: 950

THL can you cut up the near pick by Brock with like 40 seconds left? I was listening to the Better Rivals podcast today and they said we were in quarters coverage on that play, just curious if that's true cus I haven't seen Mangini run a lot of quarters.

Oct 16, 2015 at 10:02 PM

#195

Sanfran_chrisco
Veteran
Posts: 33,935

Originally posted by thl408:
Completely agree. There was a good structure in place and it should have been continued - team coverage. That's why average CBs looked good in Fangio's scheme. With the loss of Aldon and Justin, two good pass rushers, a good coverage scheme should have been emphasized, not simplified.

Also gone from Mangini's scheme are split coverages where one side of the field is doing one thing, and the other side is doing another. The examples shown above of Cover6 are split coverages. With split coverages, the QB can look to one of the safeties and make a determination as to what coverage he's facing, then when he looks to the other side, he will see the other safety doing something else. I've seen Brees/Rodgers be hesitant too many times to rule out that these split coverages weren't making them think more than they are accustomed to.

Just one more example before I stop b***hing about this, for today.
2013 - Notice Reid is not aligned as a Cover1 safety. He's not in the middle of the field. TB will run a Mesh concept (man buster) and also get a High-Low read (zone buster) over the middle of the field.

When the WRs criss cross (mesh concept) the 49ers are in zone coverage so there's no pick/rub. Then when the High-Low read develops over the middle, the 49ers have morphed to man coverage so there's no stretching of zones. All this done from a split safety look. It's just a thing of beauty to watch. QB has time and doesn't know what to do with it.

I could watch this s**t all day.