Is the D actually BETTER than last year?

Originally posted by Antix:

Im all for being optimsistic, but given all the ? I cant see how you can say the D is better until they prove it. DL is unproven for the most part and nobody has any idea who our CBs will be. I know we had many injuries last year but the D last year proved what it could do. This year is a buncha guys who look decent-good on paper. Gotta wait and see, it could be better, but to say that and TC hasnt even started yet is junping the gun way too hard.

I agree with all of this. Despite the rotating LBs last season, one thing that was constant was the DEs. I don't buy the argument that just because Justin wasn't playing like he was in 2011 means he won't be missed. He still contributed a ton to the success of the LBs and the run defense. In other words, Justin playing well is better than most DEs playing excellent. He was still a beast despite playing fewer snaps than at any point in his career. Lots of potential in the DL this season, but potential must be realized. RayMac was a stout run defender as well and he was there till the last two weeks of the season. I'm not too worried about the pass rush because I loved what I saw from Lynch and Aldon looks like he's ready to go. It's the run defense that I want to see perform. Any good defense must stop the run, even though it's a passing league.

The safeties have me confident in the secondary play. We can pretty much book em (safeties) down for having a good season.

IMO our defense hinges on Dial/Carradine and Bowmans health. Love that LB unit and Baalke has always had low key, effective pick ups for the secondary.

Our NT has been at least solid throughout our recent years and I don't see Ian Williams being any different this year. Dorsey played great before getting hurt and IMO is a better fit at DE. If Dial can stuff the run and Carradine/Dockett can get to the QB, watch the F out.

I hope im wrong but no

Originally posted by Antix:
Im all for being optimsistic, but given all the ? I cant see how you can say the D is better until they prove it. DL is unproven for the most part and nobody has any idea who our CBs will be. I know we had many injuries last year but the D last year proved what it could do. This year is a buncha guys who look decent-good on paper. Gotta wait and see, it could be better, but to say that and TC hasnt even started yet is junping the gun way too hard.

From what I've read, the starting DL is likely to be Dial/Williams/Dorsey, all of whom are proven. Based off last year the cornerbacks are probably Brock, Ward, and Johnson as starters. You can't predict injuries, but Williams is a stud, Dorsey is better than Raymac, and Dial showed real promise. Reid/Bethea are solid, Lynch could be a breakout player, and Bowman/Aldon are back.

On paper the defense looks a lot better than last year (I'd almost say superior), but the real wildcards are injury and Mangini's scheme. With that said, I'm still not sure how the defense was so good last year with so much volatility.

Lol no way !!!!!!!

it all comes down to mangini. 2015 defense has more talent than 2014 so it will all come down to the coaching

Originally posted by crake49:
Is the D-line deeper than it has been in years for a good rotation? Yes.

Is the corner and secondary deep with real good speed and talent? Yes.

Is the combination of a 100% Bowman and Wilhoite better than Borland and Wilhoite? Yes.

Does the D have a deep corps of pass rushers? Yes.

Will there be more blitzing? Probably.

Will there be more scheme changes based on who they're playing? Probably.

All in all, the defense actually could be as good or better than last year. We'll see.

I'm on board!

Originally posted by Marvin49:
I am certainly not saying they WILL be better...but it's possible.

While the media, opposing fans, and nihilistic Niner fans would have you believe that all the wheels have fallen off, they often forget a few things...

1) "OMG, Patrick Willis retired!!". Right..I love the guy, but Pat missed 10.5 games last year.
2) "OMG, Borland Retired!!!". Right, Borland only started 7 games last year...and he only played because Pat was hurt. These "two" losses are only one position.
3) Oh yeah, and Bowman didn't play a single down last year. He's back now.
4) WIlhoite quietly played very well last year.
5) "OMG, Justin Smith retired!!!". Just like Pat, I loved the guy, but can we stop pretending he was the same guy he was in 2011? He wasn't. He knew it. THAT's why he retired. New Blood there is needed in a big way. Will they be just like Justin? Of course not. However, neither was Justin last year.
6) "OMG, they lost both starting corners!!!". This one cracks me up the most. Two starting corners? By starting corners do you mean 1 guy in his first year as a starter and another guy claimed off the scrapheap that was replacing an injured starter? When did Parrish Cox become irreplaceable? Brock is back and they have a number of young guys to compete on the other side. Hell, the Niners lost both starting corners LAST year too (Rogers and Brown)...and that seems to have worked out OK.
7) Barring injuries and new stupidity, Aldon will play 16 games for the 1st time since the 2012 season. Nuff said.

#$^&* awesome post Marvin!

Originally posted by PopeyeJonesing:

Originally posted by Marvin49:
I am certainly not saying they WILL be better...but it's possible.

While the media, opposing fans, and nihilistic Niner fans would have you believe that all the wheels have fallen off, they often forget a few things...

1) "OMG, Patrick Willis retired!!". Right..I love the guy, but Pat missed 10.5 games last year.
2) "OMG, Borland Retired!!!". Right, Borland only started 7 games last year...and he only played because Pat was hurt. These "two" losses are only one position.
3) Oh yeah, and Bowman didn't play a single down last year. He's back now.
4) WIlhoite quietly played very well last year.
5) "OMG, Justin Smith retired!!!". Just like Pat, I loved the guy, but can we stop pretending he was the same guy he was in 2011? He wasn't. He knew it. THAT's why he retired. New Blood there is needed in a big way. Will they be just like Justin? Of course not. However, neither was Justin last year.
6) "OMG, they lost both starting corners!!!". This one cracks me up the most. Two starting corners? By starting corners do you mean 1 guy in his first year as a starter and another guy claimed off the scrapheap that was replacing an injured starter? When did Parrish Cox become irreplaceable? Brock is back and they have a number of young guys to compete on the other side. Hell, the Niners lost both starting corners LAST year too (Rogers and Brown)...and that seems to have worked out OK.
7) Barring injuries and new stupidity, Aldon will play 16 games for the 1st time since the 2012 season. Nuff said.

Agreed with everything you've said about the players, but you've left one big thing out and made one big assumption:

Assumption: At this time last year the injuries we'd all like to count hadn't happened either (Willis, Brock, Borland, Williams, Dorsey), and there's yet-to-be-named injuries that will likely end up being part of the equation. At this time last year we also thought we'd have half of a season with Aldon on the field as old Aldon, and expecting him to not be new Aldon on the field anymore is, at the end of the day, a pretty big assumption.

Missing: Fangio and Donatell. They're huge wild cards as we don't know how much of the 9ers success was talent versus scheme, but that Fangio was able to go the plug-and-play DB route year in and year out and everyone who left stunk up their new joints (e.g. Goldson, Rogers, T. Brown...Whitner didn't fall off that much) makes me think that succeeding with revolving DBs might have left the building with Fangio.

Good post Pop...like the objectivity there without predicting doom-and-gloom in the same token.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Antix:
Im all for being optimsistic, but given all the ? I cant see how you can say the D is better until they prove it. DL is unproven for the most part and nobody has any idea who our CBs will be. I know we had many injuries last year but the D last year proved what it could do. This year is a buncha guys who look decent-good on paper. Gotta wait and see, it could be better, but to say that and TC hasnt even started yet is junping the gun way too hard.

I agree with all of this. Despite the rotating LBs last season, one thing that was constant was the DEs. I don't buy the argument that just because Justin wasn't playing like he was in 2011 means he won't be missed. He still contributed a ton to the success of the LBs and the run defense. In other words, Justin playing well is better than most DEs playing excellent. He was still a beast despite playing fewer snaps than at any point in his career. Lots of potential in the DL this season, but potential must be realized. RayMac was a stout run defender as well and he was there till the last two weeks of the season. I'm not too worried about the pass rush because I loved what I saw from Lynch and Aldon looks like he's ready to go. It's the run defense that I want to see perform. Any good defense must stop the run, even though it's a passing league.

The safeties have me confident in the secondary play. We can pretty much book em (safeties) down for having a good season.

The solace we can take is that Justin only played 66% of the snaps last year and couldn't finish the final 3 games where Carradine did. McDonald was already gone and we were forced to use our weakest link by a mile in TJE (poor year). Yet, we finished top 7 in run defense and had to be doing something right up front to also lead the league in TO's. It's too small of a sample size but perhaps we can get a gauge of the run defense looking at how we were ranking right after McDonald was dismissed and esp. after Justin had to bow out. But what I like is the idea that Dial will be able to move back out to DE, his natural position, TJE may not even make this team, and we've added additional talent such as Dockett and AA and Dorsey is back healthy again. Like JT noted, this is certainly the deepest unit he's ever seen here during his tenure.

That's not to minimize McDonald or Justin's effect on the DL but more of a thumbs up to those who had to fill in for them while maintaining a top run defense overall (and recognizing the added talent we have now).

That said, those roles will need to be defined (i.e. Dial on base downs and Dockett on pass rush downs) and secured in Mangini's new defense but the UNIT certainly has the capability to more than replace the production lost esp. from last year IMHO.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Antix:
Im all for being optimsistic, but given all the ? I cant see how you can say the D is better until they prove it. DL is unproven for the most part and nobody has any idea who our CBs will be. I know we had many injuries last year but the D last year proved what it could do. This year is a buncha guys who look decent-good on paper. Gotta wait and see, it could be better, but to say that and TC hasnt even started yet is junping the gun way too hard.

I agree with all of this. Despite the rotating LBs last season, one thing that was constant was the DEs. I don't buy the argument that just because Justin wasn't playing like he was in 2011 means he won't be missed. He still contributed a ton to the success of the LBs and the run defense. In other words, Justin playing well is better than most DEs playing excellent. He was still a beast despite playing fewer snaps than at any point in his career. Lots of potential in the DL this season, but potential must be realized. RayMac was a stout run defender as well and he was there till the last two weeks of the season. I'm not too worried about the pass rush because I loved what I saw from Lynch and Aldon looks like he's ready to go. It's the run defense that I want to see perform. Any good defense must stop the run, even though it's a passing league.

The safeties have me confident in the secondary play. We can pretty much book em (safeties) down for having a good season.

Its not that I don't think he'll be missed.

I just don't think the dropoff from Justin to Tank/Dorsey/Dial/Armstead or whomever ends up in that spot will be as dramatic as people let on. Justin was a great player. He did all the dirty work that let players around him succeed. Perhaps Tank for Example isn't that guy...but he might provide something DIFFERNT than Justin did. Tank has longer arms and is more of a pure pass rusher than Justin was. He's not as country strong as Justin (who is?), but just because a guy can't be a carbon copy of the guy leaving doesn't mean they can't have success being the player they are.

Who knows how good they'll be...but I like the guys they have.

My D got better every year for 24 years, and then since then has been getting worse each year

Originally posted by SoCold:
I'll comment on this after the 4th preseason game.

Even at this point won't give you a good idea.

Well we have more than just ian, and glenn, and dockett,

we got Quinton Dial, Tank, Armstead,Tony J E , we got plenty of depth on the line.

I'm not worried about the DL, to me it's the LB's, whether Bowman is affective off the bat, if Lynch is ready to go Week 1.

And whether these CB's are gonna step up this year.


The rest comes down to KAP and OL.

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Antix:

Im all for being optimsistic, but given all the ? I cant see how you can say the D is better until they prove it. DL is unproven for the most part and nobody has any idea who our CBs will be. I know we had many injuries last year but the D last year proved what it could do. This year is a buncha guys who look decent-good on paper. Gotta wait and see, it could be better, but to say that and TC hasnt even started yet is junping the gun way too hard.

I agree with all of this. Despite the rotating LBs last season, one thing that was constant was the DEs. I don't buy the argument that just because Justin wasn't playing like he was in 2011 means he won't be missed. He still contributed a ton to the success of the LBs and the run defense. In other words, Justin playing well is better than most DEs playing excellent. He was still a beast despite playing fewer snaps than at any point in his career. Lots of potential in the DL this season, but potential must be realized. RayMac was a stout run defender as well and he was there till the last two weeks of the season. I'm not too worried about the pass rush because I loved what I saw from Lynch and Aldon looks like he's ready to go. It's the run defense that I want to see perform. Any good defense must stop the run, even though it's a passing league.

The safeties have me confident in the secondary play. We can pretty much book em (safeties) down for having a good season.

Its not that I don't think he'll be missed.

I just don't think the dropoff from Justin to Tank/Dorsey/Dial/Armstead or whomever ends up in that spot will be as dramatic as people let on. Justin was a great player. He did all the dirty work that let players around him succeed. Perhaps Tank for Example isn't that guy...but he might provide something DIFFERNT than Justin did. Tank has longer arms and is more of a pure pass rusher than Justin was. He's not as country strong as Justin (who is?), but just because a guy can't be a carbon copy of the guy leaving doesn't mean they can't have success being the player they are.

Who knows how good they'll be...but I like the guys they have.

I posted above that I'm not concerned with the pas rush. It's the run defense from Dial/Dorsey that I see possibly dropping off. I don't think I'm overrating what Justin/RayMac did while I admit I might be underrating Dial/Dorsey. Until I see them put together a string of games where they perform like Justin/RayMac, they are not as good as Justin/RayMac. I need to see it first.

I think it comes down to how a person views potential. Some assume it will be achieved. Some think nothing of it until it's realized. I stay in the middle with skeptic optimism. You say that you don't think the drop off is as big as people say, which I don't even know how much that is. Then you say "who knows how good they'll be". That, I agree with. I do think they'll be at the very least adequate. I like Dial and Dorsey but I loved RayMac and Justin. I think very highly of them.