Interview Charles Haley

Originally posted by jreff22:

I'm not wanting to make this about white vs black because it's a pointless argument. But you're going on a white tirade trying to prove how bad white people are. The raw data Sofa provided shows who is doing what, that's the answer for who's breaking the rules more.

Making the discussion about athletics who break the rules into a discussion of "race" sees entirely pointless.

Individuals break the rules. Individuals act badly.

Seems pretty simple-----could say that it seems blac......... never mind.

Crime throughout the world is more correlated to Socioeconomics then anything else. Imo

@jreff22

Imma stop on this thread after this. Because quite frankly, this really isn't the address for this kind of conversation. I didn't make this a race issue, one Charles Haley did. (And I fail to see my "tirade".) I pointed out how his statement was coonish, which it was. And I went on to explain just why it was coonish. Like it or not, his idiotic statement goes far beyond football. Now, I cannot help that some here cannot accept that, and the fact that you or anyone else disagrees with that won't change that fact to the contrary. When you stated:

Are you assuming he is doing this for white favor?

I knew that this deserved a much deeper discussion to do it justice. I wasn't really assuming anything. I was going off what I know from my work in the Black community, not just in sports and mentoring, but of my own studies, research, and writings. Buried deep within the crevices of the psyche Black America is what has been recognized as psychological slavery, something similar to the Stockholm Syndrome, only at a much deep collective scale. Seeking white approval is not at the conscious level. The mass majority our daily existence in these United States is centered around getting whites to accept us, it in politics, education, and in particular in employment. At great price we spend so much of our daily energy, and have spent (I'd say wasted) the lives of many good people trying to get whites to treat us as they treat themselves to the point that we've totally abandoned our ourselves and our own needs, even health needs. In fact, we have come to value white acceptance far over anything, even Black unity. Forget about whites, most Blacks today haven't (or can't or won't) accept that reality. So when Charles Haley states that Blacks need to be like whites (in this case young Black NFL players) I cannot - I will not - view it as just some flip comment from an old man who perhaps has taken too many blows to the head during his playing days. I put it where it a proper category - cooning. And as I said, Aldon Smith, et al, do need advice, just not THAT advice.

Glad chi is going stop posting nonsense

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:

Originally posted by SofaKing:
We're talking about the NFL, not NHL. You claimed there is double-standard, that white players don't get singled out like black players do. That's not true. The increased media coverage is due to the NFL being much more popular than the NHL, and with more black players in the NFL getting arrested than non-black, they get in the news more.. When Roethlisberger was accused of sexual assault, not even arrested, it was the biggest story in sports. Bruce Miller took heat for his arrest too, as well he should have. That's because of the NFL's popularity. Has nothing to do with race.

Again, Black NFL players aren't arrested at higher rates than the general population. Those aren't my statistics, check out the links I provided. Plus, and as you pointed out, the NFL is mostly Black players, some 68-70%. This makes Haley's statement even more ignorant. How could it not be that more Black NFL guys would get arrested? From my first comment on this my point was always ALL Black athletes and how they're portrayed in the media. And even when white players are in trouble (again, see Bruce Miller or even Daniel Kilgore) there isn't the same media frenzy that there is when it's Black players. You mentioned Big Ben. Funny how this hasn't followed him in the media, or his team or contract since then. And how long was that even a story?

I agree, Black NFL players aren't arrested at higher rates than the general population. In fact, stats show all NFL players are arrested at a lower rate than the general population. But we're not talking about the general population, or any other league. The discussion was specifically about Charles Haley's comments regarding the arrest rate for black players in the NFL.

Black players make up 68% of the league, and 89% of the arrests. The remaining 32% of the league make up 11% of the arrests. The NFL is mostly comprised of black players, so of course more black players will be arrested total than any other race. However, there is a difference between total arrests and arrest rate. The arrest rate shows that a black NFL player is 3 times more likely to be arrested for assault or domestic violence than another NFL player, according to this study: https://stat.duke.edu/~dalene/chance/chanceweb/123.nflviol.pdf....and that's just assault and domestic violence. Does not include the various other things players get arrested for.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to make this a race issue at all. I just want to dispel the notion that black players are unfairly singled out by the media because of their race. I honestly don't think that's true at all. There is also the issue of context. All we know for sure about Miller is that he broke his gf's phone. Ray Rice is seen on camera assaulting his wife in an elevator. Of course the coverage of these incidents will be different.

If the NHL was the most popular sport in the US, everyone would be focusing on Slava Voynov and Jarrett Stoll, but most people don't care about them or the NHL, hence the lack of media coverage in comparison to the NFL. Haley was just trying to give these young players some advice, nothing more, nothing less. His comment was made to grab their attention, maybe even make them mad, but the arrest records are what they are.

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
@jreff22

Imma stop on this thread after this. Because quite frankly, this really isn't the address for this kind of conversation. I didn't make this a race issue, one Charles Haley did. (And I fail to see my "tirade".) I pointed out how his statement was coonish, which it was. And I went on to explain just why it was coonish. Like it or not, his idiotic statement goes far beyond football. Now, I cannot help that some here cannot accept that, and the fact that you or anyone else disagrees with that won't change that fact to the contrary. When you stated:

Are you assuming he is doing this for white favor?

I knew that this deserved a much deeper discussion to do it justice. I wasn't really assuming anything. I was going off what I know from my work in the Black community, not just in sports and mentoring, but of my own studies, research, and writings. Buried deep within the crevices of the psyche Black America is what has been recognized as psychological slavery, something similar to the Stockholm Syndrome, only at a much deep collective scale. Seeking white approval is not at the conscious level. The mass majority our daily existence in these United States is centered around getting whites to accept us, it in politics, education, and in particular in employment. At great price we spend so much of our daily energy, and have spent (I'd say wasted) the lives of many good people trying to get whites to treat us as they treat themselves to the point that we've totally abandoned our ourselves and our own needs, even health needs. In fact, we have come to value white acceptance far over anything, even Black unity. Forget about whites, most Blacks today haven't (or can't or won't) accept that reality. So when Charles Haley states that Blacks need to be like whites (in this case young Black NFL players) I cannot - I will not - view it as just some flip comment from an old man who perhaps has taken too many blows to the head during his playing days. I put it where it a proper category - cooning. And as I said, Aldon Smith, et al, do need advice, just not THAT advice.

What SON!!!

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
And as Ta-Nehisi Coates points out in his work THAT reality is one impossible to maintain. With all due respect to your grandmother (and my own elder relatives), in affect, you are asking Blacks to be super human to reach the basics. We are living in a time where we've (Black Americans) have reached the limitations of that outdated mode of thinking. And anyone -Black or white - still expecting Blacks to be "twice as good" are expecting an unrealistic reality can can never last.

Now, I don't know where Haley was coming from. I can only go by what the man said. And what he said was some coon sh!t. Period!!!

Taken literally it is coon s*** but I just find it hard to believe Charles is that type of guy. For my grandma she said it for emphasis and I know I can't be twice as good as another human being but I've always taken her point as my skin color might cause pause for others to accept me but if I can put in the work the right way and give my all eventually I simply can't be denied. I've felt this my whole life but I was convinced early on to work through some of that type adversity. It wasn't always present but it was obviously there a good bit of my life but I worked through it enough to get what I've needed out of life. Do I wish things were better? Sure, but it sure gets my heart pumping when I've got things against me. It always has been that way. I can't change how others might initially view me but I can fight hard to do what the f*** I gotta do to make ish happen because I found out a long time ago that there aren't many folk in this world waiting to do me any favors.

Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Crime throughout the world is more correlated to Socioeconomics then anything else. Imo

This seems to be accurate in my experience. If you are brought up in a suspect environment and you're denied opportunity with ignorance around you in abundance you will probably not do so well

Originally posted by Pillbusta:

Originally posted by Young2Rice:

Crime throughout the world is more correlated to Socioeconomics then anything else. Imo

This seems to be accurate in my experience. If you are brought up in a suspect environment and you're denied opportunity with ignorance around you in abundance you will probably not do so well

See that's why I don't get the professional athlete breaking the law situation. Ok PEDS we can argue makes some sense, but everything else? These guys have been given opportunity and are paid, very very well. I don't get the mindset to risk everything over some b******t.

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
@jreff22

Imma stop on this thread after this. Because quite frankly, this really isn't the address for this kind of conversation. I didn't make this a race issue, one Charles Haley did. (And I fail to see my "tirade".) I pointed out how his statement was coonish, which it was. And I went on to explain just why it was coonish. Like it or not, his idiotic statement goes far beyond football. Now, I cannot help that some here cannot accept that, and the fact that you or anyone else disagrees with that won't change that fact to the contrary. When you stated:

Are you assuming he is doing this for white favor?

I knew that this deserved a much deeper discussion to do it justice. I wasn't really assuming anything. I was going off what I know from my work in the Black community, not just in sports and mentoring, but of my own studies, research, and writings. Buried deep within the crevices of the psyche Black America is what has been recognized as psychological slavery, something similar to the Stockholm Syndrome, only at a much deep collective scale. Seeking white approval is not at the conscious level. The mass majority our daily existence in these United States is centered around getting whites to accept us, it in politics, education, and in particular in employment. At great price we spend so much of our daily energy, and have spent (I'd say wasted) the lives of many good people trying to get whites to treat us as they treat themselves to the point that we've totally abandoned our ourselves and our own needs, even health needs. In fact, we have come to value white acceptance far over anything, even Black unity. Forget about whites, most Blacks today haven't (or can't or won't) accept that reality. So when Charles Haley states that Blacks need to be like whites (in this case young Black NFL players) I cannot - I will not - view it as just some flip comment from an old man who perhaps has taken too many blows to the head during his playing days. I put it where it a proper category - cooning. And as I said, Aldon Smith, et al, do need advice, just not THAT advice.

This is perfectly written. Spot on!

Originally posted by jreff22:
You can't blame hockey players for fighting when it's part of the sport. It just like blaming a pitcher for throwing at a batter when one of his guys was just thrown at. Now you can bring up that giant basketball brawl from a few years ago because that's not part of the sport.

The reason the NFL is looked at more is because of its popularity. You think Americans care about Hockey like they do football?

"Yeah, I went to a fight and a hockey game broke out."
Henny Youngman

Originally posted by jreff22:
See that's why I don't get the professional athlete breaking the law situation. Ok PEDS we can argue makes some sense, but everything else? These guys have been given opportunity and are paid, very very well. I don't get the mindset to risk everything over some b******t.

Think of it this way ... when you are raised in a broken family and community from a very young age there are pressures some of us can't imagine on an individual to conform to that lifestyle and as a black man if you don't have the proper guiding hand from a male mentor it is very easy to get distracted and pulled back into the habits you were raised with and exposed to as a youth. Yes the pro athlete has a meal ticket today but it wasn't always that way and if they weren't raised properly they have a high probability to get into trouble later. It's complicated and 9ersLifer makes some great points but honestly you would have to take way too much time away from football to study these issues than most of us would desire in order to understand this stuff. This is why the NFL has these rookie symposiums for the players because a lot of guys truly need it. I'm watching Ballers on HBO and I see that guy Reggie guiding the DL on the show because obviously his father is not present and the money grubbing homey Reggie is as close as it gets for the player. That ball player is bound to be in trouble and broke before long. I had my grandfather until he died when I was 35 yo. He was a dominant force in my life so I had guidance that I respected above anything else and a to of guys don't have anything close to that so the homies is where it's at for them and that's wrong!

Originally posted by Pillbusta:

Originally posted by jreff22:
See that's why I don't get the professional athlete breaking the law situation. Ok PEDS we can argue makes some sense, but everything else? These guys have been given opportunity and are paid, very very well. I don't get the mindset to risk everything over some b******t.

Think of it this way ... when you are raised in a broken family and community from a very young age there are pressures some of us can't imagine on an individual to conform to that lifestyle and as a black man if you don't have the proper guiding hand from a male mentor it is very easy to get distracted and pulled back into the habits you were raised with and exposed to as a youth. Yes the pro athlete has a meal ticket today but it wasn't always that way and if they weren't raised properly they have a high probability to get into trouble later. It's complicated and 9ersLifer makes some great points but honestly you would have to take way too much time away from football to study these issues than most of us would desire in order to understand this stuff. This is why the NFL has these rookie symposiums for the players because a lot of guys truly need it. I'm watching Ballers on HBO and I see that guy Reggie guiding the DL on the show because obviously his father is not present and the money grubbing homey Reggie is as close as it gets for the player. That ball player is bound to be in trouble and broke before long. I had my grandfather until he died when I was 35 yo. He was a dominant force in my life so I had guidance that I respected above anything else and a to of guys don't have anything close to that so the homies is where it's at for them and that's wrong!

My issue with what you said stems from the normal rationale for breaking the law. When you are uneducated, have no job, no home, no money, no opportunity, etc crime is an easy avenue to follow. With pro athletes we are talking about (mildly) educated well paid individuals with steady jobs and very little down time. They aren't out running the streets doing dumb s**t.

9erslife stated, "those aren't my statistics, check out the links I provided. Plus, and as you pointed out, the NFL is mostly Black players, some 68-70%. This makes Haley's statement even more ignorant. How could it not be that more Black NFL guys would get arrested?" The black populations is obviously a minority but the crime rate and incarceration rate is very high. If the main reason for that is poverty which leads to crime, the numbers shouldn't be matching athletes who are living an easy life with real stuff to do. I understand the point of a mentor but all these guys are obviously naturally driven to get to where they are. I don't get how they, with that opportunity, fall back into the general statistic of criminal behavior. We can argue the socioeconomic status of regular people and point to higher crime rates for the prior mentioned problems. Those statistics shouldn't be carrying over to pro's who aren't afflicted with the same struggles.

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by Pillbusta:

Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Crime throughout the world is more correlated to Socioeconomics then anything else. Imo

This seems to be accurate in my experience. If you are brought up in a suspect environment and you're denied opportunity with ignorance around you in abundance you will probably not do so well

See that's why I don't get the professional athlete breaking the law situation. Ok PEDS we can argue makes some sense, but everything else? These guys have been given opportunity and are paid, very very well. I don't get the mindset to risk everything over some b******t.

That's what we mean. There are people who come from different environments where what you are saying makes sense.

Some of these guys come from an environment where the mentality is different. They grew up with a differnt mindset and its not that easy to just change it. Especially when to young people who are given lots of money and believe they made it by being who they are and resist change. Its hard to accept that where you grew up and what you believe might be wrong. They might see it as turning their back on their culture, friends, family and community.

Its like someone growing up with religious values being told by an atheist that god doesn't exist and vice versa. Its not going to be easy to change either mindset, although it can be done. But there will be resistance eitehr way mostly because of the reasons cited above.

Originally posted by Pillbusta:

Think of it this way ... when you are raised in a broken family and community from a very young age there are pressures some of us can't imagine on an individual to conform to that lifestyle and as a black man if you don't have the proper guiding hand from a male mentor it is very easy to get distracted and pulled back into the habits you were raised with and exposed to as a youth. Yes the pro athlete has a meal ticket today but it wasn't always that way and if they weren't raised properly they have a high probability to get into trouble later. It's complicated and 9ersLifer makes some great points but honestly you would have to take way too much time away from football to study these issues than most of us would desire in order to understand this stuff. This is why the NFL has these rookie symposiums for the players because a lot of guys truly need it. I'm watching Ballers on HBO and I see that guy Reggie guiding the DL on the show because obviously his father is not present and the money grubbing homey Reggie is as close as it gets for the player. That ball player is bound to be in trouble and broke before long. I had my grandfather until he died when I was 35 yo. He was a dominant force in my life so I had guidance that I respected above anything else and a to of guys don't have anything close to that so the homies is where it's at for them and that's wrong!

VERY well said, Pillpusta. That's why I don't think there is anything wrong with what Haley said. He understands the conditions some of these young guys grew up in and how it might effect their ability to stay out of trouble. As you said, there is a ton of pressure to conform to a certain lifestyle that may not be in the best interest for their careers. He's just looking out for their best interest.