49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by mojave45:

Well if they aren't getting the skills and practice in College, its harder for them to transition to the Pro level isn't it?

But that doesn't mean there is any less talent. It just emphasizes the importance of having excellent developmental coaches at the NFL level and you need to understand that it's going to take longer to develop them...maybe 2 years or more. We're seeing numerous trades now and G's and C's closing the gap on T $ now. Teams are prioritizing it esp. pass protection (see Trenton Brown) because the NFL game (passing league) is starting to mirror the college game that way (spread offenses).

But talent? It seems just as strong as any other position.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Thanks. I don't follow them because eff the Cowboys. Appreciate that.

Smith only missed 3 games. TF did miss the whole yr, almost like having a center out there with a torn quad for 13 games

Appreciate the clarity/context.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
The state of OL play in the NFL in general is garbage. Too few good linemen for far too many teams.

It's a cute phrase that keeps getting thrown around but is there any actual proof of this compared to any other position?

I'm actually asking everyone this because I see it all the time.

Is talent really any less these days or just less developed and refined due to the spread systems and players coming out early?

Yes, the talent is less developed. Remember how for the most part, a tackle was generally a safe pick in the top-10? Of course you had your busts here and there, but for the most part, going with a tackle in the top-10 would yield at worse a competent starter for 5 years. I don't know at what point when it began to change, but I do remember the year Luke Joekel was coming out and there was consideration of him being the number 1 pick. I noticed after that, there were more misses with O lineman than I remember in the 10 years prior.

For goodness sakes, the Super Bowl champion New England Patriots just made trades for 3 o-linemen. Yes, this is a league wide problem.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by mojave45:
Well if they aren't getting the skills and practice in College, its harder for them to transition to the Pro level isn't it?

But that doesn't mean there is any less talent. It just emphasizes the importance of having excellent developmental coaches at the NFL level and you need to understand that it's going to take longer to develop them...maybe 2 years or more. We're seeing numerous trades now and G's and C's closing the gap on T $ now. Teams are prioritizing it esp. pass protection (see Trenton Brown) because the NFL game (passing league) is starting to mirror the college game that way (spread offenses).

But talent? It seems just as strong as any other position.

You also have to keep in mind, if you are talking about 2 years or more to develop O-line guys and that's IF all of your guys develop. As we all know, that won't happen. OR a guy will develop, but you can't afford to extend him, so you have to hit the reset button with another guy. Or maybe you have guys in the process of development, but a starter got injured, so someone has to play before they are ready.

Originally posted by PhillyNiner:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by PhillyNiner:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by PhillyNiner:

It's a back up...no exactly sure what people expect here.

A backup just days from the season. Just noting he fits right in with the kinds of transactions we make for depth. Loooooooong list of these guys.

You opinion on this is almost comical at this point, you complain we do nothing, you complain when we do something, you complain and complain and offer zero in terms of what you would have done better. You keep the negativity going in this thread almost singlehandedly just to prop up old arguments and move goal posts constantly. Not much to offer you at this point because nothing will matter, nothing that was realistic and could actually have been done would have made you content...it is abundantly clear.

Literally, the message I have been sending out since 2014 is to prioritize the OL the same way they have the DL. And every year fans like you defend these "moves" and we end up right back where we started. There is a reason this thread is 970 pages and it isn't because of me.

But keep up the Faith.

You should go on record with your faith in this OL and depth and revisit mid season.

I have been pretty clear that I think we will be average starters and we need depth....what I don't do is respond to every post for 970 pages with a negative comment and nothing constructive to add.

Pointing out the biggest weakness on the team will always be a hot topic until it's rectified. Just look at the DL thread. LOL.

When they make good moves and the production starts to match actual field results, this thread will turn into a rainbows and unicorns thread too. Which...we all want!

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
Backup swing tackle with starter experience, he's not very good but it's about what you're gonna find at this pt.

sounds like he is at least respectable as a back up and we need that

I say sign him - he sounds like a solid pickup for our OL depth.

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by mojave45:

Well if they aren't getting the skills and practice in College, its harder for them to transition to the Pro level isn't it?

But that doesn't mean there is any less talent. It just emphasizes the importance of having excellent developmental coaches at the NFL level and you need to understand that it's going to take longer to develop them...maybe 2 years or more. We're seeing numerous trades now and G's and C's closing the gap on T $ now. Teams are prioritizing it esp. pass protection (see Trenton Brown) because the NFL game (passing league) is starting to mirror the college game that way (spread offenses).

But talent? It seems just as strong as any other position.

You also have to keep in mind, if you are talking about 2 years or more to develop O-line guys and that's IF all of your guys develop. As we all know, that won't happen. OR a guy will develop, but you can't afford to extend him, so you have to hit the reset button with another guy. Or maybe you have guys in the process of development, but a starter got injured, so someone has to play before they are ready.

100%. This is why I was emphasizing this in year 1 of their rebuild. If they want to keep costs low and young production high, they needed to start emphasizing the OL in the draft immediately. 3 years later, we have nobody and that's disappointing. Kyle's emphasis has been on using stop gap journeymen veterans annually instead. That seems like just kicking the can down the street.

Just for reference. Ryan Pope looks like he may be someone that can be developed into a decent tackle. He came out of San Diego State last year and has the size (6'7", 320 lbs with 11 inch hands). He ran 4.99 at the combine with 25 reps on the bench press. Hopefully they can coach him up and make him a decent backup who might eventually be able to start. Mills (6'5", 316 lbs.) who is visiting with the Niners might give more immediate help since he's been in the league for a few years. At least they are showing us that they know line is an issue and signaling that this will be an area that they target in the off season.

Originally posted by NCommand:
But that doesn't mean there is any less talent. It just emphasizes the importance of having excellent developmental coaches at the NFL level and you need to understand that it's going to take longer to develop them...maybe 2 years or more. We're seeing numerous trades now and G's and C's closing the gap on T $ now. Teams are prioritizing it esp. pass protection (see Trenton Brown) because the NFL game (passing league) is starting to mirror the college game that way. But talent? It seems just as strong as any other position.

It's all about technique, which you told me was all in your brain These college lineman have to learn how to pass-block all over again a lot of the time (which requires snaps and practice). Talent is only as good as understanding how to use it properly, which takes time...Geoff Schwartz talking about it all the time on twitter (and shows examples). It's a reason McG went so high. He was in a pro-style offense and learned from a top end OL coach. Perfect example was Laremy Tunsil, all the talent in the world but it took him a couple yrs to learn how to play tackle in the NFL.

OL overall is prioritized because there simply isn't quality available. It's like how QB was for so long. Tackles still hold most of the highest guaranteed money along the OL (only 1 OG in the top 10 among guaranteed cash and it's Martin).

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

The state of OL play in the NFL in general is garbage. Too few good linemen for far too many teams.

It's a cute phrase that keeps getting thrown around but is there any actual proof of this compared to any other position?

I'm actually asking everyone this because I see it all the time.

Is talent really any less these days or just less developed and refined due to the spread systems and players coming out early?

Yes, the talent is less developed. Remember how for the most part, a tackle was generally a safe pick in the top-10? Of course you had your busts here and there, but for the most part, going with a tackle in the top-10 would yield at worse a competent starter for 5 years. I don't know at what point when it began to change, but I do remember the year Luke Joekel was coming out and there was consideration of him being the number 1 pick. I noticed after that, there were more misses with O lineman than I remember in the 10 years prior.

For goodness sakes, the Super Bowl champion New England Patriots just made trades for 3 o-linemen. Yes, this is a league wide problem.

The league wide shortage IMHO is top developmental NFL coaches. Dante Scarnecchia is the absolute best in the game and the true secret x-factor behind so much of their success with his ability to ID talent and develop them over 16 games and help hit their strides come playoffs. If anything, they have proven you can find "talent" all over the board and via trade and every outlet to acquisitions.

Now, can you name the second best OL coach?

Mills is not a bad player at all, he's started 82 of 87 games. He'd be a fine backup swing tackle. Just as good as Coleman

Mills has also played some guard. He may be a nice stop gap until we develop our younger OL.

Originally posted by CatchMaster80:
Just for reference. Ryan Pope looks like he may be someone that can be developed into a decent tackle. He came out of San Diego State last year and has the size (6'7", 320 lbs with 11 inch hands). He ran 4.99 at the combine with 25 reps on the bench press. Hopefully they can coach him up and make him a decent backup who might eventually be able to start. Mills (6'5", 316 lbs.) who is visiting with the Niners might give more immediate help since he's been in the league for a few years. At least they are showing us that they know line is an issue and signaling that this will be an area that they target in the off season.

Right but if there's an "issue" it's a guard not tackle. We do need a swing tackle, Mills makes sense since he's got plenty of experience.

All for developing that OL. Would love to see if that could get Forest Lamp somehow.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

It's all about technique, which you told me was all in your brain These college lineman have to learn how to pass-block all over again a lot of the time (which requires snaps and practice). Talent is only as good as understanding how to use it properly, which takes time...Geoff Schwartz talking about it all the time on twitter (and shows examples). It's a reason McG went so high. He was in a pro-style offense and learned from a top end OL coach. Perfect example was Laremy Tunsil, all the talent in the world but it took him a couple yrs to learn how to play tackle in the NFL.

I could not agree with this more.

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by PhillyNiner:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Cowboys major OL investments:
LT Tyron Smith: 6X Pro Bowler, signed through 2023
C Travis Frederick: 4X Pro Bowler, signed through 2023
RG Zack Martin: 5X Pro Bowler, signed through 2024
RT La'el Collins: Signed through 2024

A dominant group intact.

— Field Yates (@FieldYates) September 3, 2019

Eh, they will still piss all that talent away and go 8-8

And near the top in sacks allowed last year

Common denominator is Dak Prescott. Like Kyle said, for some guys, the protection is never good enough.