49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by LasVegasWally:

Excellent post NC!

Thanks dude...certainly not a gloom post; just questioning if we made the right choices this off season. We don't have the answers quite yet...it all may turn out great!

Originally posted by pdizo916:

Originally posted by mayo49:
I think the line will be alright - like Giedi said - they just need time to gel.

They just need more talent.

They need better talent and i hope jimmy does not pay the price as they "jell"

Originally posted by NCommand:
Agreed in that one can't expect to fill every hole in just two off seasons. It's no secret that OL and ER are probably still our two biggest needs still left to be filled...maybe CB if Sherman doesn't work out. But that's a good example...CB they were aggressive and got a HOF CB and then added a ton of resources through the draft for the secondary. They did all they could here.

ER? There just wasn't that guy in the FA market. The draft, they didn't want to trade up higher for Laundry ir get OO, Davenport, Key, etc. and then ended up ignoring it altogether.

OL, they took a calculated risk in moving on from Brown and threw our top resource in the draft at McGlinchey. They certainly went aggressively after Richburg. That's a sound approach but they didn't even attempt going after Norwell or Sitton and instead, relied on the Fusco-approach and brought in average to below average G's and hoped they panned out.

My concern is that if you're relying on guys like Tomlinson, Garnett, Cooper and Person, beware. That might bite you in the ass.

With Tomlinson looking average at best in pass protection drills, McGlinchey getting dominated, Cooper still hasn't got up to football speed, Garnett most likely done one way or another, and you're now relying on Person or Magnuson, there's legit reason for concern in August.

Fans forget that Garoppolo took a lot of hits last year. You don't want a similar thing this year but for a full 16 games.

Tomlinson and Garnett are below average pass protectors in general; we can expect McGlinchey to struggle in pass protection esp. given who we play coming out of the gate. Kyle has a history of going cheaper at G which is understandable but perhaps outdated now. I'd feel a billion times better about this OL with Norwell or Sitton sitting next to McGlinchey or if we used some resources in a deep draft of G's.

You listen to Lynch, they very much are relying on Garoppolo's quick release to cover up the OL. That's dangerous for 16 games. The two positions he justified were the OL and ER on KNBR...he knows. We're not there yet...in August.

People forget during our dynasty, we had dominant OL...HOF, all-pro and probowl OL and some of those at G...not hoping for adequate.

The two areas we didn't address continue to be our biggest concerns, for whatever reason and given the approaches we took. We're about to find out if the approaches to both were right or not.

good post,. this is what many of us feel. for whatever reason we did not address the two biggest needs. it is not unlawful or negative to have that opinion, and what nc said about jimmy is so true.. for six games he made things look better than what they were. in 16 games and a full off season to get ready. hoping jimmys release can bail us out is as dangerous as hoping aa and ward and eli can fill holes for us and hoping the guards which have shown little to nothing so far can suddenly get their act together. i bet you we end up trying to find some o line guys with cuts from other teams and then calling elvis

I've given up on Garnett. He's a lost cause and I'm hoping that they keep a youngster like Williams or the UW center for depth.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

NC, I agree with 90% of this. The 10% I don't agree with and I feel is very much up for discussion.

(1) We have no idea if the 49ers pursued Norwell or Sitton, in fact IIRC, every top free agent was reported that the 49ers were interested in pursuing. Also, not every player at OG that is available will fit this scheme. I have not forgotten that during our dynasty we had a dominant OL that was perfect for the WCO scheme. I think people also forget that McKittrick was just as innovative as Walsh and while people were trying to imitate OLs like the Steelers, Redskins, Dolphins, and Giants, McKittrick was choosing what many considered, even then, "undersized" lighter guys who were available in rounds 6, 7, 8 (when the NFL had 8+ rounds). At some point during a professional evaluation, you see similarities regardless of hype. It was clear we had two pieces that needed to be immediately addressed almost unanimously on this board; center and RT. Both moves, like with the Garappolo acquisition were opportunistic and only presented themselves because we didn't think the Giants would actually move Richburg, nor did we think McGlinchey would be available when we picked him. Again, scheme fit, not cheap or hope or gamble. Yeah, I know Lynch said what he said, but he's not the coach and not calling/designing offensive plays (KS interview with at NFL meetings March 2018). And as much as we're concerned about pass protection, everyone needs to remember 2016 Atlanta Falcons were 5th in rushing yards. That's no accident. This scheme needs run-blocking.

(2) I think we did address the OG positions. Fusco and Beadles are no longer with the team. Now address it with to top names in the FA market regardless of their ability to scheme fit? That's a different argument. We had that problem already didn't we in Trent Brown and now Joshua Garnett. I'm convinced that if we asked Garnett to just road grade his way through the defense, he would have lot more self-confidence and not be waiting for a second opinion because he doesn't feel right despite all tests being negative to date. We would have no problem with Trent ballooning up to 400lbs if we didn't need him to zone block and asked JG to stand back there and just rifle 50 passes/game. No judgment, it's just no the scheme we have.

Yes, there are legit concerns not just at guard, but for the OL as a whole. There's not a lot of proven depth. If Staley goes I don't see how we recover on offense. Relative to the Rams who did make some great high-priced acquisitions and then have some significant home-grown talent of their own, they've placed themselves in a position to contend.... because they were a lot closer than we were I'd argue and we've decided to build almost exclusively - our core players through the draft. That being said, my concerns aren't rooted in 1-1 rushing drills that are desigend so that the defense has the advantage. It's the same criticism I have for people who are shook about our corners getting beat on 1-1 cover drills against WRs.

Concerns noted. I think we all need to be prepared for a 5-11 team still having some growing pains. I expect that for a team that's trying to create a wide, long window for contending. Life could be worse. We could have Goff for a QB.

Always love great debates. Thanks NinerGM.

Totally agree about scheme. I called it a calculated risk to let Brown go with the idea that in the long run, McGlinchey will be the better fit. Richburg is not only an upgrade in scheme fit but talent. Tomlinson 2.0 should be better than 1.0 esp. with a full off season.

It's rare for a young all pro G to hit the FA market; Norwell went to a power offense again but the guy I felt was the best and proven fit was Sitton or resigning Fusco for continuity. And in a deep draft for G? And nothing...I just feel we didn't do all we could to protect our FQB and instead, hope his growth and develop can make up for the OL play. That's scary over 16 games.

The 1v1 and 2v2 drills very much stimulate game-like situations with 1v1 and picking up stunts. The OL has to react. If they can keep the QB clean for 3-4 seconds, that's a win for the OL... that's why you see veterans like Staley stop blocking at the 4 second mark abd check out. Manny times these drills will go an extra 1 or 2 seconds longer which is game-like too...agree... eventually, the DL should win but that's the same in a game too. It's very different IMHO from 1v1 WRvCB drills.

But damnit, I'm a faithful...so Cooper is going to rise up, Richburg is going to ball, Tomlinson is going to be even better and the rookie McGlinchey is going to get better and better every game!

PS: Love your point about running more. This is the best way to protect your FQB and you KNOW that WCO short quick passing game to the Arby's, FB and TE's (and screens) will be on full display!

Yup, NC, the deep draft in OGs and we move up to replace our 2nd rd pick and....Pettis...WR, not an OG. The only thing I thot about that nite was, i wonder how well Pettis can block at OG? This much later, what is coming to pass is exactly what i was afraid of. There is stil time to pick up someone else's cuts at OG, and do so until we do find a guy who is teachable. Don't get me wrong, i love Pettis. But OG? That was a coaching blind spot and kyle wanted that high octane WR. Well we got him. I just pray we have enough on the OL to protect jimmy for 2.5 seconds. Because if not, this is going to be one long season. When you go into a candy shop, well, everything looks like candy. And that is how i think we got Pettis. But the OGs were really stacked between #10 or so and #35. AFter that the cupboard was bare. I understand kyle making the choice, i just think it was ill advised.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Always love great debates. Thanks NinerGM.

Totally agree about scheme. I called it a calculated risk to let Brown go with the idea that in the long run, McGlinchey will be the better fit. Richburg is not only an upgrade in scheme fit but talent. Tomlinson 2.0 should be better than 1.0 esp. with a full off season.

It's rare for a young all pro G to hit the FA market; Norwell went to a power offense again but the guy I felt was the best and proven fit was Sitton or resigning Fusco for continuity. And in a deep draft for G? And nothing...I just feel we didn't do all we could to protect our FQB and instead, hope his growth and develop can make up for the OL play. That's scary over 16 games.

The 1v1 and 2v2 drills very much stimulate game-like situations with 1v1 and picking up stunts. The OL has to react. If they can keep the QB clean for 3-4 seconds, that's a win for the OL... that's why you see veterans like Staley stop blocking at the 4 second mark abd check out. Manny times these drills will go an extra 1 or 2 seconds longer which is game-like too...agree... eventually, the DL should win but that's the same in a game too. It's very different IMHO from 1v1 WRvCB drills.

But damnit, I'm a faithful...so Cooper is going to rise up, Richburg is going to ball, Tomlinson is going to be even better and the rookie McGlinchey is going to get better and better every game!

PS: Love your point about running more. This is the best way to protect your FQB and you KNOW that WCO short quick passing game to the Arby's, FB and TE's (and screens) will be on full display!

So you do admit that this team should have made a better effort to sign sitton. I wasnt the only one who thought so.

Maybe they should have tried to move up in the 2018 draft and gone after Nelson. With his arrival a box could've been checked off for the next 10 years. Let's hope the scheme makes the linemen more effective and the defense takes some of the pressure off Jimmy G. I think Mckinnon is something special and could help carry the offense.

Originally posted by RishikeshA:

Maybe they should have tried to move up in the 2018 draft and gone after Nelson. With his arrival a box could've been checked off for the next 10 years. Let's hope the scheme makes the linemen more effective and the defense takes some of the pressure off Jimmy G. I think Mckinnon is something special and could help carry the offense.

That move would have cost this team major draft capital.

Originally posted by pdizo916:

So you do admit that this team should have made a better effort to sign sitton. I wasnt the only one who thought so.

Oh, I was banging the tables hard for Norwell but if not him, Sitton was my guy and then draft a G to groom behind him because of his age...like getting Sherman and drafting Moore behind him to directly learn from him. And no, you were not alone. Unfortunately we'll never know what really happened behind the scenes but IIRC, reports were we didn't even attempt either despite the initial rumors.

Let us all not forget that in Kyle's scheme, the OGs are not valued as highly as the center and the tackles. Rather than spend a valuable draft pick on an OG, they went in another direction..developing the guys they had This is actually.similar to what they did with their pass rush. Rather than taking a flyer on a draft pick / project, they fortified their secondary, hoping that the better coverage overall will lead to more sacks. they have stated they were "very close" to a lot of sacks last year and just needed the coverage to hold up for a little bit longer.

Yes, the Niners may not be a "complete" team this year but what team is? Every team has its strengths and weaknesses. I actually have faith in Lynch / Shan that they know where they are and what they have to do to get the team to the next level. It may take more time, it may not. One thing I keep hearing is how great the chemistry is in the locker room this year. That is not to be discounted. If some young players with potential (i.e. Colbert, Spoon and Thomas) can take the next step in their development, this team could be special.

Until we hear that the coaches aren't happy with Tomlinson, Cooper, and Garnett, I think we need to trust the process, which appears to be playing out rather well.

Cheers!

I think the undervaluing of guards line of thought is a little antiquated. Football has changed. That approach may have sufficed thirty years ago when passing wasn't as prolific, teams ran true 3-4s with uncovered guards, or run-stuffing interior defensive linemen were prioritized, but contemporary football has changed. Teams run attacking schemes today on every down in which one or both B gap is attacked. Nobody runs a true 3-4 anymore, and 3techs are becoming more dynamic than they've ever been. I think we're seeing a player that will go down as the best 3tech ever in Aaron Donald.

The chess match between Kyle and Wade Phillips is going to be fascinating to watch. I'm expecting Phillips to use wide split(ie double 3tech) formations with Suh and Donald to isolate Laken Tomlinson and Mike Person/Erik Magnuson/Jonathan Cooper, and threaten double A-gap blitz from his LBs on every play to neutralize Weston Richburg. Of course, Kyle could always counter with his "base personnel" to force them to stay in theirs and help his guards. Again, this is going to be riveting football to watch.

Originally posted by Heroism:

I think the undervaluing of guards line of thought is a little antiquated. Football has changed. That approach may have sufficed thirty years ago when passing wasn't as prolific, teams ran true 3-4s with uncovered guards, or run-stuffing interior defensive linemen were prioritized, but contemporary football has changed. Teams run attacking schemes today on every down in which one or both B gap is attacked. Nobody runs a true 3-4 anymore, and 3techs are becoming more dynamic than they've ever been. I think we're seeing a player that will go down as the best 3tech ever in Aaron Donald.

The chess match between Kyle and Wade Phillips is going to be fascinating to watch. I'm expecting Phillips to use wide split(ie double 3tech) formations with Suh and Donald to isolate Laken Tomlinson and Mike Person/Erik Magnuson/Jonathan Cooper, and threaten double A-gap blitz from his LBs on every play to neutralize Weston Richburg. Of course, Kyle could always counter with his "base personnel" to force them to stay in theirs and help his guards. Again, this is going to be riveting football to watch.

Wade is going to have a hard time with Kyle's offense. If they blitz or go wide 9 alignment, Kyle will run it down their throat. The outside zone run is perfect against agressive shoot the gap defenses. Personally I think Wade has always had problems with the WCO, in my opinion. His defenses are too linebacker-centric, when good modern nickel pass defenses are more SS/DB centric (i.e. SS/WLB hybrids) who change coverage bases on their drops and their alignment.

I was hoping Garnett would nab that RG spot - looks like it's not going to happen. It's still early in camp - so there's still hope.

Originally posted by Heroism:

I think the undervaluing of guards line of thought is a little antiquated. Football has changed. That approach may have sufficed thirty years ago when passing wasn't as prolific, teams ran true 3-4s with uncovered guards, or run-stuffing interior defensive linemen were prioritized, but contemporary football has changed. Teams run attacking schemes today on every down in which one or both B gap is attacked. Nobody runs a true 3-4 anymore, and 3techs are becoming more dynamic than they've ever been. I think we're seeing a player that will go down as the best 3tech ever in Aaron Donald.

The chess match between Kyle and Wade Phillips is going to be fascinating to watch. I'm expecting Phillips to use wide split(ie double 3tech) formations with Suh and Donald to isolate Laken Tomlinson and Mike Person/Erik Magnuson/Jonathan Cooper, and threaten double A-gap blitz from his LBs on every play to neutralize Weston Richburg. Of course, Kyle could always counter with his "base personnel" to force them to stay in theirs and help his guards. Again, this is going to be riveting football to watch.

Great post!! I completely disagree. You don't have to look very far to see the next generation of elite pass rushers. This division is stacked with them and they're all inside guys that can line up anywhere on the defensive line. I've been saying the guard position is severely undervalued across the league for years now and yet I was scolded on this forum and assured that guards are easily found dead in mid rounds and a plug n play position. Some of those same dudes are complaining right now about how bad our guards blow at pass protection and most are first and second round picks.