Zone blocking scheme

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by InsertNameHere:
What are some "prolific" rushing attacks that ran a "ZBS"?

Isn't that what Mike Shan. mainly ran in Denver where he could plug in any RB and they'd get 1k yards?

Yeah, Denver, Ravens last year...Seahawks and Redskins where they lead the league under our new coaches in Foerster/Wolford under RGIII.

Shanahan specifically was a head coach for 18 years (after leaving us and using a ZBS). In those 18 years he had a top 10 rushing offense 14 times. Of those 14 times, 11 were top 5 finishes.

They truly were a plug-n-play system. It was like the equivalent to the WCO passing offense under Walsh. If someone went down, someone else would just step in and not miss a beat mostly due to the system. Back in the day, you could put just about anyone at the RB position and have success...a lot of success! I'm praying we can do the same here but with dynamic runners in Hyde/Davis and Hunter/Bush.

Great thread!Thanks for the explanations and discussion. While I always hate changing jargon, it does help clear up changing concepts!

Originally posted by WRATHman44:
I think slide is when one of the receivers on a boot/waggle/rollout runs to the flat behind the LOS. I could be wrong on that, though.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Great thread!Thanks for the explanations and discussion. While I always hate changing jargon, it does help clear up changing concepts!

Yeah the changing jargon makes it difficult to nail down terminology that we can all be sure about. It's obvious that there isn't a concrete set of terminology that we are all used to, but I think the following is either accurate or at the very least not too far off base.

Waggle: A rollout that is supported by blockers on the same side as the QB rollout. It does not matter if it's to the weakside or strongside. I don't want to make a strongside/weakside declaration in the case of a balanced formation, as mentioned earlier. 'The Catch' is a Waggle concept.

Bootleg: I will change my previous definition of 'Slide' to Bootleg. Bootleg is a rollout with no blockers in front of the QB (naked). There is no strongside/weakside declaration. If there are no blockers in front of the QB as he rolls out, it's a Bootleg.

Slide: This is the concept of having a RB/TE/WR go against the flow of the OLine, either behind or very close to the LoS. It has nothing to do with how the QB is rolling out. So a Slide concept can be used in conjunction with a Waggle or Bootleg rollout, although normally done with a Bootleg. A Bootleg doesn't have to use the Slide concept. Like what WRATH described in the quoted post.

The reason I wanted to spend some time talking about this is because of the focus with getting Kap to rollout. I wanted to differentiate between the different types of rollouts as we breakdown the 2015 film. Thanks for that discussion guys. And to tie this back to ZBS... ZBS -> playaction -> playaction rollout.

Originally posted by thl408:
Yeah the changing jargon makes it difficult to nail down terminology that we can all be sure about. It's obvious that there isn't a concrete set of terminology that we are all used to, but I think the following is either accurate or at the very least not too far off base.

Waggle: A rollout that is supported by blockers on the same side as the QB rollout. It does not matter if it's to the weakside or strongside. I don't want to make a strongside/weakside declaration in the case of a balanced formation, as mentioned earlier. 'The Catch' is a Waggle concept.

Bootleg: I will change my previous definition of 'Slide' to Bootleg. Bootleg is a rollout with no blockers in front of the QB (naked). There is no strongside/weakside declaration. If there are no blockers in front of the QB as he rolls out, it's a Bootleg.

Slide: This is the concept of having a RB/TE/WR go against the flow of the OLine, either behind or very close to the LoS. It has nothing to do with how the QB is rolling out. So a Slide concept can be used in conjunction with a Waggle or Bootleg rollout, although normally done with a Bootleg. A Bootleg doesn't have to use the Slide concept. Like what WRATH described in the quoted post.

The reason I wanted to spend some time talking about this is because of the focus with getting Kap to rollout. I wanted to differentiate between the different types of rollouts as we breakdown the 2015 film. Thanks for that discussion guys. And to tie this back to ZBS... ZBS -> playaction -> playaction rollout.

Thanks! Is better to all be on the same page. Not to throw sand in the air...but...what then is a naked bootleg?

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Thanks! Is better to all be on the same page. Not to throw sand in the air...but...what then is a naked bootleg?

All bootlegs are naked. 'Naked bootleg' is redundant, like WRATH mentioned in a previous post. Again, not concrete terminology, but something I have heard more than once.

I don't like pushing terminology on anyone, but like you said, for the sake of being on the same page and being able to quickly reference a concept based on a single word, I'm striving for consistency.

Originally posted by thl408:

All bootlegs are naked. 'Naked bootleg' is redundant, like WRATH mentioned in a previous post. Again, not concrete terminology, but something I have heard more than once.

I don't like pushing terminology on anyone, but like you said, for the sake of being on the same page and being able to quickly reference a concept based on a single word, I'm striving for consistency.

Those sound good. Hell even that WCO book I showed had wraggles and boots based on weather the backs that were being faked too were going strong or weak side.

I just remember the term slide being attached to backs/TE/WR going against flow. But even there the term "slide" used heavily in OL jargon.

Originally posted by Niners816:
Those sound good. Hell even that WCO book I showed had wraggles and boots based on weather the backs that were being faked too were going strong or weak side.

I just remember the term slide being attached to backs/TE/WR going against flow. But even there the term "slide" used heavily in OL jargon.

Gotcha. I won't be using the term 'Slide' to describe the QB's rollout anymore. It will be used to describe what the RB/TE/WR is doing in relation to the flow of the OLine.
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Just one more mention of Waggle. Here is the Waggle concept being used with the Spot concept. Waggle because Gore cuts the EMOLS to support the QB rollout. I will use this as my example for Spot in the Concepts thread.

Originally posted by thl408:

Gotcha. I won't be using the term 'Slide' to describe the QB's rollout anymore. It will be used to describe what the RB/TE/WR is doing in relation to the flow of the OLine.
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Just one more mention of Waggle. Here is the Waggle concept being used with the Spot concept. Waggle because Gore cuts the EMOLS to support the QB rollout. I will use this as my example for Spot in the Concepts thread.

FWIW, here are the listed actions passes in the 1985 Walsh playbook.



Not that it's the end-all be-all, but there is illustrated differences between them. This is mid 80s so the "naked" are basically boots.

Originally posted by thl408:

Yeah the changing jargon makes it difficult to nail down terminology that we can all be sure about. It's obvious that there isn't a concrete set of terminology that we are all used to, but I think the following is either accurate or at the very least not too far off base.

Waggle: A rollout that is supported by blockers on the same side as the QB rollout. It does not matter if it's to the weakside or strongside. I don't want to make a strongside/weakside declaration in the case of a balanced formation, as mentioned earlier. 'The Catch' is a Waggle concept.

Bootleg: I will change my previous definition of 'Slide' to Bootleg. Bootleg is a rollout with no blockers in front of the QB (naked). There is no strongside/weakside declaration. If there are no blockers in front of the QB as he rolls out, it's a Bootleg.

Slide: This is the concept of having a RB/TE/WR go against the flow of the OLine, either behind or very close to the LoS. It has nothing to do with how the QB is rolling out. So a Slide concept can be used in conjunction with a Waggle or Bootleg rollout, although normally done with a Bootleg. A Bootleg doesn't have to use the Slide concept. Like what WRATH described in the quoted post.

The reason I wanted to spend some time talking about this is because of the focus with getting Kap to rollout. I wanted to differentiate between the different types of rollouts as we breakdown the 2015 film. Thanks for that discussion guys. And to tie this back to ZBS... ZBS -> playaction -> playaction rollout.

First thanks for all the info on here! One question though, it seems like your definition of bootleg and waggle contradicts what was in the book quoted on the previous page. They said the bootleg the qb goes to the strong side and in a waggle they go to the weak. Which seems to be different to your definition? Or do the definitions not really matter so much?

Originally posted by dwilly85:

First thanks for all the info on here! One question though, it seems like your definition of bootleg and waggle contradicts what was in the book quoted on the previous page. They said the bootleg the qb goes to the strong side and in a waggle they go to the weak. Which seems to be different to your definition? Or do the definitions not really matter so much?

I was the guy that presented the book. I think this is a case that illustrates that different coaches/staff use different terms and jargon. That book was printed in the late 90s and within their definitions it has the distinction being based on strong and weak side running of the backs. Well, that in and of itself ignores balanced formations. This maybe a case where the authors of the book used predominantly non-balanced formation therefore in their offense these definitions are just.

IMO, Thl's definitions are just and would be great in identifying the differences between boots & waggles. In the end whether it's waggle or boots it's all actually "action passes" and I suspect we will see more in the new offense then we have in the past 4 seasons.

R.I.P. Kap

Originally posted by dwilly85:
First thanks for all the info on here! One question though, it seems like your definition of bootleg and waggle contradicts what was in the book quoted on the previous page. They said the bootleg the qb goes to the strong side and in a waggle they go to the weak. Which seems to be different to your definition? Or do the definitions not really matter so much?

Yeah I'm not going by the definition in that book. I don't like that it makes the designation based on strength of formation. The point was brought up earlier in the thread that in a balanced formation (for example 2 inline TEs, and a single RB in the backfield), how do we classify a rollout as bootleg or waggle if we go by that book's definition? The formation is balanced and there is no strongside. So based on that, I didn't want to categorize by weakside vs strongside.

I do, however, want to classify a rollout as being naked or having blocking support, which is why I wanted to choose bootleg (naked) vs waggle (blocking support). In future posts, I can say something like "weakside bootleg pass" and we will know that the rollout was naked to the weakside. Or I can say "the 49ers pull the backside guard for a strongside waggle pass" and we know that it was a 'strongside rollout with blocking support from the backside Guard '. Just an effort to get consistency in semantics when I cut up 2015 film.

Originally posted by ChazBoner:
R.I.P. Kap

Zone blocking actually should lead to better pass protection. So I think you're a little premature on this.

Originally posted by thl408:

All bootlegs are naked. 'Naked bootleg' is redundant, like WRATH mentioned in a previous post. Again, not concrete terminology, but something I have heard more than once.

I don't like pushing terminology on anyone, but like you said, for the sake of being on the same page and being able to quickly reference a concept based on a single word, I'm striving for consistency.

Again I'm gonna go to 1985 playbook to solidify some of Thl's definitions.

Here are boots (naked)-notice lack of extra blocker


Here are waggles

Originally posted by Niners816:
Again I'm gonna go to 1985 playbook to solidify some of Thl's definitions.

Here are boots (naked)-notice lack of extra blocker


Here are waggles

Nice! Waggle is also clearly shown going away from strength on three of these and toward strength on 2, so there's that.