We got robbed tonight, and here is why.

Originally posted by ring_less:
He still didnt have control of the ball at that point, you see it bobble loose towards the end when he gets full control....

if he bobbled the ball it wouldnt have been a catch because the ball hit the ground, thus making it incomplete.

Originally posted by Stanley:

Originally posted by ring_less:
He still didnt have control of the ball at that point, you see it bobble loose towards the end when he gets full control....

if he bobbled the ball it wouldnt have been a catch because the ball hit the ground, thus making it incomplete.

Right. The ruling was that he didn't bobble the ball. And if that was true, then it was also true that he had secured the ball as it was over the plane with his knees down in the end zone. I don't know why it seems so hard for some people to come to terms with the fact that this was a blatant blown call that cost the Niners the game. Yes, they played horribly. But, that should have been the winning TD pass with less than 30 seconds to go and nobody would be complaining about Kaepernick. Everyone would be saying he overcame horrible offensive line play.

Originally posted by linkboy:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Exactly, he never lost possession even for a second so shouldn't he be ruled forward progress...which would be a TD?

No, because forward progress isn't in effect on this play.

A catch in a situation where the receiver goes to the ground isn't complete until he goes through the full process. The spot is based on where he is when the process is completed, not where the catch is started

Hmmm, then shouldn't it be down at the 1 inch yard? He had both knees down and possession. That said (thinking out loud here), why is a receiver allowed to catch a ball, tackled backwards, prove he's maintained possesion and the ball is brought forward to the highest point of forward progress? What's the difference...just curious.

Bad call yes. Still, this game gave me flashbacks to the Super Bowl against the Ravens. Just give the damn ball to FRANK GORE

Originally posted by NCommand:
Hmmm, then shouldn't it be down at the 1 inch yard? He had both knees down and possession. That said (thinking out loud here), why is a receiver allowed to catch a ball, tackled backwards, prove he's maintained possesion and the ball is brought forward to the highest point of forward progress? What's the difference...just curious.

Well, forward progress exists so that a team can't pick a player up and drive him backwards for a huge loss... if forward progress didn't exist it would be abused. That doesn't apply here.

Ok, we need to break down the entire play starting from the time Crabtree catches the ball.

The fact that his knee is down in the endzone at the start (this being the key word) of the catch is irrevelant. For a catch to be complete when it involves the player going to the ground, he has to maintain possession from the start of the catch to the point when his momentum is stopped (that's what the process of the catch is). Forward progress doesn't apply in this situation because of the fact that Crabtree is going to the ground, which means forward progress gets negated by the process of the catch rule. Forward progress would apply if Crabtree had jumped to catch the ball in the endzone and the defender pushed him across the goalline and Crabtree would have came down in the endzone without the push.

With that stated, for the catch to count, Crabtree needs to maintain control of the ball to the point where his body stops moving and the play is over. As he's rolling over, the nose of the ball touches the ground. The ball can touch the ground if the player maintains control of it, if it's moving it's an incomplete pass.

Lastly, since Crabtree wasn't touched by a defender when he was on the ground and went out of bounds on his own, the ball gets spotted where he went out of bounds.

If Crabtree runs that route one to two yards deeper, we're not even having this discussion.

Originally posted by theduke85:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Hmmm, then shouldn't it be down at the 1 inch yard? He had both knees down and possession. That said (thinking out loud here), why is a receiver allowed to catch a ball, tackled backwards, prove he's maintained possesion and the ball is brought forward to the highest point of forward progress? What's the difference...just curious.

Well, forward progress exists so that a team can't pick a player up and drive him backwards for a huge loss... if forward progress didn't exist it would be abused. That doesn't apply here.

True I get that but defenders can push a receiver OOB mid-air now for an incompletion. Forward progress is still forward progress regardless. If both knees (or one) is down in the EZ, with possession and the rule is he needed to complete the catch throughout, he did that. If they ruled he didn't technically have FULL possession (even though it started in the EZ and broke the plain) of the ball until he he hit the ground and demonstrated he still maintained control of the ball, then the ball s/h/b spotted at the 1 inch mark...not all the way back at the 1 yard line.

over and over, Kaep will wanna throw the winning TD to Crab.. what i don't understand is why do the coaching staff makes this possible?? why not take him out and insert Boldin in there instead.. Boldin is our best WR, he is the NFL's most physical WR on a one on one situation..

and of course, 2 yards away from endzone, why not just hand it to Frank Gore, or Carlos Hyde from a deep I formation and let them dive it in.. instead of rolling out Kaep and trying to hit a TD pass??

I can't accept the fact that we got robbed in this game, freakin game is 10-10 for a while and it should not have been this way..

Originally posted by NCommand:
True I get that but defenders can push a receiver OOB mid-air now for an incompletion. Forward progress is still forward progress regardless. If both knees (or one) is down in the EZ, with possession and the rule is he needed to complete the catch throughout, he did that. If they ruled he didn't technically have FULL possession (even though it started in the EZ and broke the plain) of the ball until he he hit the ground and demonstrated he still maintained control of the ball, then the ball s/h/b spotted at the 1 inch mark...not all the way back at the 1 yard line.

The ball would be spotted where it goes out of bounds, not where Crabtree's body is (and if you look at the gif above, it's just a shade inside the 1yd hash mark).

Also, the play isn't over until Crabtree goes out of bounds or the defender touches him. If he had stayed in bounds and the defender still jumped over him, he could have went into the endzone.

At no point in the play is Crabtree ever down in the field of play since the Ram's defender never touched him.

Originally posted by 9moon:
over and over, Kaep will wanna throw the winning TD to Crab.. what i don't understand is why do the coaching staff makes this possible?? why not take him out and insert Boldin in there instead.. Boldin is our best WR, he is the NFL's most physical WR on a one on one situation..

and of course, 2 yards away from endzone, why not just hand it to Frank Gore, or Carlos Hyde from a deep I formation and let them dive it in.. instead of rolling out Kaep and trying to hit a TD pass??

I can't accept the fact that we got robbed in this game, freakin game is 10-10 for a while and it should not have been this way..

Or the shake-artist in Johnson who has already proven to be VERY effective in the RZ when given the chance (see, Cooper, Marcus).

Originally posted by 9moon:
over and over, Kaep will wanna throw the winning TD to Crab.. what i don't understand is why do the coaching staff makes this possible?? why not take him out and insert Boldin in there instead.. Boldin is our best WR, he is the NFL's most physical WR on a one on one situation..

and of course, 2 yards away from endzone, why not just hand it to Frank Gore, or Carlos Hyde from a deep I formation and let them dive it in.. instead of rolling out Kaep and trying to hit a TD pass??

The way that line was playing? Gore would have been stopped for a two yard loss. If you look at replays of the Kaepernick fumble, you'll see Marcus Martin standing up and getting stonewalled by the Rams D-Line. It's a miracle that CK7 got as far as he did. Gore would have been dropped after one step.

What the play really called for is a little razzle dazzle with the entire offense moving in one direction and the ball carrier moving in the opposite direction. We used to run these misdirection plays with great success in the past. Not anymore. And I'm not sure why. Line play might have something to do with it. And the offensive line was truly offensive yesterday.

Here it is. It starts with a poor throw from Kap. Gee look at who is giving up pressure up the gut. Theme for the game. I don't mean to be too harsh on the rook, but he was stinking it up out there.

Originally posted by linkboy:

Originally posted by NCommand:
True I get that but defenders can push a receiver OOB mid-air now for an incompletion. Forward progress is still forward progress regardless. If both knees (or one) is down in the EZ, with possession and the rule is he needed to complete the catch throughout, he did that. If they ruled he didn't technically have FULL possession (even though it started in the EZ and broke the plain) of the ball until he he hit the ground and demonstrated he still maintained control of the ball, then the ball s/h/b spotted at the 1 inch mark...not all the way back at the 1 yard line.

The ball would be spotted where it goes out of bounds, not where Crabtree's body is (and if you look at the gif above, it's just a shade inside the 1yd hash mark).

Also, the play isn't over until Crabtree goes out of bounds or the defender touches him. If he had stayed in bounds and the defender still jumped over him, he could have went into the endzone.

At no point in the play is Crabtree ever down in the field of play since the Ram's defender never touched him.

OK, so essentially, they are treating it like a bobble-catch. While first contact, touch and first act of possession was inside the EZ, they didn't count that as a complete catch until a yard later after he rolled over and went OOB, stopping the clock. Gotcha.

I wonder if this has ever happened before. I can't ever remember a player catching a ball in the EZ and his own momentum carrying him out of the EZ making it not a full completion until the full process was completed outside the EZ.

PS: It's almost like reverse-forward momentum. I wonder if he had kept rolling down the sidelines on his own back to the 5 yard line and was touched or rolled OOB, where they would spot the ball? Would they spot it at the 1 or the 5?

Originally posted by NCommand:
OK, so essentially, they are treating it like a bobble-catch. While first contact, touch and first act of possession was inside the EZ, they didn't count that as a complete catch until a yard later after he rolled over and went OOB, stopping the clock. Gotcha.

I wonder if this has ever happened before. I can't ever remember a player catching a ball in the EZ and his own momentum carrying him out of the EZ making it not a full completion until the full process was completed outside the EZ.

Exactly and to be honest, you could make a damn good argument as to that being an incomplete pass.

Originally posted by linkboy:

The ball would be spotted where it goes out of bounds, not where Crabtree's body is (and if you look at the gif above, it's just a shade inside the 1yd hash mark).

Also, the play isn't over until Crabtree goes out of bounds or the defender touches him. If he had stayed in bounds and the defender still jumped over him, he could have went into the endzone.

At no point in the play is Crabtree ever down in the field of play since the Ram's defender never touched him.

The bold isn't true - when it comes to plays at the goal line, the play is over when the player has control of the ball, is down, and at that exact moment the ball either touches or crosses the plane (if any part of the ball is in the space on, above, or across the goal line). It looks like Crabtree has control of the ball while his knee is touching the ground AND the ball is touching the plane.