KC Chiefs coaches film analysis

Echoing the sentiment that this is the most anticipated thread of the week. Question for Johnnydel/Thl: I keep hearing you guys praise the DL play, in particular Ian Williams, but it seems that we haven't been very stout against the run this year. Aside from Shady, we really haven't been able to stop teams from gaining a pretty good yards per carry week in and week out. Most of opponents didn't exploit this as much as they should've, like KC and Dallas. Am I just off base, or there something missing from the DL play, especially NT?

Originally posted by thl408:
Yeah I think there would be time to go to Vance, but I'm not sure if this was a screen pass all the way and Vance is purely trying to run a defender away from the playside. As in, is Kap instructed to look to Vance as an option? Can't tell. Kap's pump fakes influence defenders a lot and I'm not sure why the coaches don't teach him to use it more often. Zone defenders know they have to get a good jump on the throw just to have a chance at making a play on the ball since Kap's arm is so strong.

That play probably was designed with Vernon in mind as the crosser. If VD was the crosser he would have drawn a couple of defenders. No one respects Vance.

Originally posted by irief:
Echoing the sentiment that this is the most anticipated thread of the week. Question for Johnnydel/Thl: I keep hearing you guys praise the DL play, in particular Ian Williams, but it seems that we haven't been very stout against the run this year. Aside from Shady, we really haven't been able to stop teams from gaining a pretty good yards per carry week in and week out. Most of opponents didn't exploit this as much as they should've, like KC and Dallas. Am I just off base, or there something missing from the DL play, especially NT?

From what I see, our D-line has been doing a great job of controlling the LOS. You don't see them pushed around a whole lot, they do a great job of eating up blockers and generally, I'm not seeing a huge advantage that any team has against us in the run game. We are ranked 5th against the run and 4th against the pass right now, and the difference between us being 3rd against the run is the 17 yard swing pass to a WR. We're averaging 77.4 yards given up per game - taking away the Dallas game, we're averaging 64.75 - which is 2nd in the league - and the film backs that up. What you see is, teams will get a decent run every once in a while, but overall, they're not huge lanes and their O-lines aren't really able to overpower our guys. So, other teams aren't real confident in their ability to run against us.

We're not the type of run stopping team that's going to have a bunch of tackles for loss like Seattle does - Seattle's D-line is a penetrating D-line whereas ours, is a blocker eating D-line. We'll have a lot of runs against us for 1-2 yards and rarely have a tackle for loss, but, we're not going to give up a lot of runs bigger than 6-7 yards.

We've been particularly good in 3rd and short situations in our run defense as well - one reason KC tried to throw it twice against us on 3rd and short. Not sure if that adresses the YPC question, but, from what I see, Thl may see something I'm not, it looks like the other team struggles to get any yards against us on the ground.

This thread alone brings up the quality of ninertalk... And you know how hard that it is.

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by jonnydel:
If I get a chance today I'll show it, but we ran a version of it last game and the game before. I remember watching it live and saying, "sprint right option".

If my recollection is correct, we seem to like running it out of shotgun and boldin seems to be a big part of this package.

It's funny you said that because I remember in the first NYG game in 2011 we ran it for a two conversion and right down to the formation It could have been ran in 1985. I was almost giddy seeing it again.

It's become a staple for a lot of teams an is included in almost every teams playbook these days. I've even seen Peyton Manning run it lol. But, you'll see every team with a mobile QB run it from time to time. Sometimes the formation or who's running the routes are slightly different, but, it's the same basic play.

Like running a power play out of different formations, same basic play.

Originally posted by bsyde82:
Are there plays in the arsenal to get Crab in space for YAC opportunities? I for one think Crab's YAC ability is special - just different from any other player. Even that one catch he had against KC displayed some of it. It pains me to not see at least some of this every single game.

We have lots of plays designed to try and get both Crabs and Boldin the ball in space. It all comes down to what the coaches are seeing on film from the team before, or how the team before is playing them. We've seen man-coverage a little more this year, so far, so those plays designed to get guys in space are more up to the receiver to create separation from the defender on his route.

One way Bill Walsh used to always combat a lot of man-coverage was trying to get RB's on LB's in the passing game - think back to how many catches both Roger Craig and Rathman had..... something like 150 combined one year The only problem we've had so far this year with that, is that we often need our RB's in pass protection support. To me, I'd like to see us keep a TE to block more and try and isolate Hyde on a LB in the passing game.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

It's become a staple for a lot of teams an is included in almost every teams playbook these days. I've even seen Peyton Manning run it lol. But, you'll see every team with a mobile QB run it from time to time. Sometimes the formation or who's running the routes are slightly different, but, it's the same basic play.

Like running a power play out of different formations, same basic play.

I love the play, as I mentioned earlier is so brilliant yet so simple. I have about 10-15 niners games on my CPU from 1992-95, I might have to rewatch some of them and see if we ran it as much as it seemed. I would be willing to bet jerry caught about 50 or so career tds on sprint option.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

We have lots of plays designed to try and get both Crabs and Boldin the ball in space. It all comes down to what the coaches are seeing on film from the team before, or how the team before is playing them. We've seen man-coverage a little more this year, so far, so those plays designed to get guys in space are more up to the receiver to create separation from the defender on his route.

One way Bill Walsh used to always combat a lot of man-coverage was trying to get RB's on LB's in the passing game - think back to how many catches both Roger Craig and Rathman had..... something like 150 combined one year The only problem we've had so far this year with that, is that we often need our RB's in pass protection support. To me, I'd like to see us keep a TE to block more and try and isolate Hyde on a LB in the passing game.

Totally agree with this. I would love to see hyde's violent running style catching passes out of the backfield isolated on a LBer.

Thanks Jonny and Thl,

Couple of comments:

• Gore is the best RB I've seen at getting low, hiding and coming out the other side of the pile. Just uncanny!

• Really liked your comment saying receivers need something to open up the deep routes, a second trick…and that speed is not as big an issue as scheme, design, deception, etc. To this end I believe Johnson may be their best downfield receiver…special ability losing guys. He could make a move and be downfield while the DB is putting his shoes back on. Boldin has also been downfiled and has had to wait for the ball at times...plenty fast enough. Certainly a healthy VD will help downfield as well.

• CK's development is not where I'd like to see it. Vision! Walsh had a drill to help QBs use peripheral vision rather than turning heads—telegraphing passes. If I remember correctly he, Walsh, even had QBs wear helmets with greater visibility than some used. A lot of this is ability of a QB—Montana had unbelievable vision, but it can be learned to some degree. In WWII, fighter pilots learned to identify planes immediately, so they wouldn't shoot down their own guys…good training matters. Your video points out CK's telegraphing--painfully!

• Willis—said before that this guy is a walking textbook. Just a great, solid guy and nice to see you acknowledge that.

• DBs improving a great deal. The new parts will become better and hopefully Brock will be back soon. They are developing young depth that may make this area a strength, when it has been a fill-in-the-FA area for the past three years. Reid, Ward and McCray make a nice young group of safeties moving forward. Cox, Culliver, Cook and Brock are all 26 or 27 years old, while Johnson, Acker and Reaser even younger depth.
• When I read your threads I have to remind myself that these are isolated snapshots and used to point out specific good and bad plays! LOL! Sometimes I start banging my head against my desk--like when watching Kilgore run into Iupati rather than getting to the edge! Yikes!

Thanks again for all the work you guys do, here and elsewhere.

jonnydel
thl408

Just a comment on the red zone offense. I think the redzone offense will improve as soon as VD gets healthy as he is important to the run and pass schemes close to the goal line. I think just a bit more running in the red zone will help with the pass protection. Running prevents big yardage losses in that area if teams blitz, and is important to set up misdirection and play - passes. Finally, the O-line has not been doing a good job in pass protection generally and I think in the red zone they are even worse. So my prescription for curing our Red zone ills are a healthy VD, more runs, and finally better pass protection.

Originally posted by darkknight49:

This thread alone brings up the quality of ninertalk... And you know how hard that it is.

Agree BIG time darkknight!

I come here to get smart input and I come away feeling like I learned something instead of the inane banter some people bring to the Zone.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by irief:
Echoing the sentiment that this is the most anticipated thread of the week. Question for Johnnydel/Thl: I keep hearing you guys praise the DL play, in particular Ian Williams, but it seems that we haven't been very stout against the run this year. Aside from Shady, we really haven't been able to stop teams from gaining a pretty good yards per carry week in and week out. Most of opponents didn't exploit this as much as they should've, like KC and Dallas. Am I just off base, or there something missing from the DL play, especially NT?

From what I see, our D-line has been doing a great job of controlling the LOS. You don't see them pushed around a whole lot, they do a great job of eating up blockers and generally, I'm not seeing a huge advantage that any team has against us in the run game. We are ranked 5th against the run and 4th against the pass right now, and the difference between us being 3rd against the run is the 17 yard swing pass to a WR. We're averaging 77.4 yards given up per game - taking away the Dallas game, we're averaging 64.75 - which is 2nd in the league - and the film backs that up. What you see is, teams will get a decent run every once in a while, but overall, they're not huge lanes and their O-lines aren't really able to overpower our guys. So, other teams aren't real confident in their ability to run against us.

We're not the type of run stopping team that's going to have a bunch of tackles for loss like Seattle does - Seattle's D-line is a penetrating D-line whereas ours, is a blocker eating D-line. We'll have a lot of runs against us for 1-2 yards and rarely have a tackle for loss, but, we're not going to give up a lot of runs bigger than 6-7 yards.

We've been particularly good in 3rd and short situations in our run defense as well - one reason KC tried to throw it twice against us on 3rd and short. Not sure if that adresses the YPC question, but, from what I see, Thl may see something I'm not, it looks like the other team struggles to get any yards against us on the ground.

The bolded is a good way to put it, which is what is asked of a lot of 3-4 DLmen - eat blockers and prevent OLmen from getting to the second level. So in that sense, Ian isn't going to get into the backfield often because that's not what's asked of him. Sorry, I can't go into specifics because I haven't focused on the DLine's run defense, and who has been good or bad. For the most part, I think the 49ers have been good against the run. The only game they got run on was the DAL game. Many posters were saying after that game that DAL has a very good Oline, which they have proved with the success of their run game (Demarco Murray) the past 5 weeks.

irief, to me, the 49ers shut down Forte, AEllington, and McCoy. Forte was the 'big one' because the week before, DAL was very successful running the ball and it made sense that CHI would try to have the same success, they did not.

JCharles had some good runs though. Here are Charles' runs (5.3 yards/carry):


1Quarter: 7, 2, 3, 6, 9, 7 ; that's very good production from the run game
2Quarter: 2, 1, 9, -1, 4 ; Up and down, but nothing to suggest that KC can't run the ball
3Quarter: 26, 4, 1;
4Quarter: 0; (one rush attempt for no gain)

To the bolded underlined. Yeah, there were two instances where KC had 3rd & 1 and they chose to pass. In both those instances, they failed to convert the 3rd down. I would say KC got away from the run game when they probably shouldn't have. Not sure if Andy Reid saw something he could exploit with the passing game or if he didn't feel confident in his run game's ability to pick up 1 yard.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by DeUh:
jonnydel and thl408

What is your take on our Red Zone offense ?

Is it bad execution (players), bad play calling (Roman / Harbaugh), bad play design (Roman / Morton / Chryst) or most definitely a combination of things ?

I just can´t wrap my head around our Red Zone failures. Despite changes at key positions over the last few years we are still average at best when it comes to red zone scoring percentage.


Red Zone Scoring Percentage

2014
44.44 percent ( 25th in the NFL )

2013
53.03 percent ( 15th in the NFL )

2012
54.69 percent ( 15th in th NFL )

2011
40.68 percent ( 30th in the NFL )



Thanks in advance and excellent work so far !

There is a study on the red zone issues of the 13-14 team in this thread, in case it was missed: http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/niners/178822-all22-analysis-red-zone-issues. Anyone can formulate their own take from that.

To me, it is indeed a combination of things and to single any one point of failure out would not be seeing the entire picture. If I had a gun to my head and had to assign "blame" based on percentage, my personal observation would be this, in regards to scoring FGs instead of TDs in the red zone (20 yard line and in):

Kap: 50%
playcalling/design: 30%
Other player's execution/penalties: 20%

There is a reason I put Kap at 50%. I don't think he has the anticipation to throw into tight windows just yet. 'Tight windows' might be the wrong term. It's more like closed windows that are about to become open. This is a must, imo, to have an offense that consistently scores TDs in the red zone passing the ball. Taking a look at the touchdown thread (http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/niners/178322-all22-look-all-touchdowns) you'll see that there was a grand total of 2 TD throws that came from Kap reading the concept side and making a throw on rhythm. It was touchdown #6 and touchdown #8 (even #6 is a maybe). Every other red zone TD throw came in the following forms:

1. backside WR isolation (pre-snap read is 1v1 with no safety help, give the WR a chance with a back shoulder throw)
2. Scramble drill (play did not succeed the way it was drawn up)
3. Playaction with one route being ran (VD in back of end zone is the main example)

None of these type of throws require much post-snap read and react where Kap needs to read how the defense is reacting to a certain route combination, then make the correct throw. Compare these throws with touchdown #6 and #8 where Kap reads the defense/leverage of defenders and makes a nice throw. Most times we see Kap dropback, not pull the trigger, then it's scramble drill time. Sometimes no one is open, sometimes Kap is slow to see the window open. Just talking about red zone TD throws as Kap threw a number of TDs from outside the 20 yard line.

I agree with WRATH that the coaches do seem to shrink the playbook when inside the red zone. Is it because they go potato or is it because they see Kap's limitations at this stage in his development? My take above answers that question.

As far as the running game in the red zone, it's known that running is harder because the safeties can run support so much easier when they don't have to worry about getting beat deep. The 49ers are good inside the 5 running the ball because of how their Oline is built - advantage of power run scheme.

And another reason the 49er's may be ranked low is because they play good defenses in their division. That doesn't explain this year's woes, more last year. DeUh, please feel free to take a look at the "red zone issues" thread and reply with your conclusion. I'd like to hear what you think, as well as others. Sure, last year is last year, but it might give us a clue as to anything that has carried over into this year.

I would agree 100% with this. I think I mentioned it earlier in this thread or another thread - IDK, but, CK doesn't do a great job of moving defenders around with his eyes, which are huge in the red zone because the space is so condensed. Also why I think you see so many runs on 1st down and runs in general in the red zone. If you know that's an area that your QB hasn't developed and you're in a close game, why in the world would you rely on that as a way to score?

We broke it down last year, but, think about the INT that CK threw against Seattle at the goal line in the 1st game last year. That play turned the entire tide of the game. Why, because CK didn't move defenders with his eyes and telegraphed his throw.

Thanks a lot.

I haven´t had a chance yet to take a look at each play but from a quick overview I tend to agree with your assessment on Kap. He is very good at a lot of things but this still seems to be a problem.

The ONLY thing that gives me pause is that, statistically, we had the same problems (Red Zone failures) with Alex under center and since he is in KC their Red Zone Scoring Percentage sky rocket (2011 32th in the NFL, 2012 32th in the NFL, 2013 5th in the NFL, 2014 4th in the NFL).

It would be fun to dig into the older tapes to see why we were only ranked 30th in 2011 with Alex as our QB.

Sorry for the short reply on Kap. I will take a deeper look as soon as I find some time.



Side Note

You probably already know this site but it is one my favorite and does a lot of work on the Niners http://insidethefilmroom.com/ . If you are not familiar with this site you should check it out.

Also Matt Bowen (former NFL DB) breaks down film from around the NFL on a daily basis http://bleacherreport.com/users/2822152-matt-bowen .



Go Niners !

I'll try to hit on two more topics before putting this game into the archives:

- expand a little further on the 49er run game from what jonnydel has already cut up. I thought the 49ers won this game, from an offensive standpoint, on the back of Gore/Hyde/Staley/Iupati/Kilgore.

- The 3(?) 49er red zone fails.

Originally posted by DeUh:
Thanks a lot.

I haven´t had a chance yet to take a look at each play but from a quick overview I tend to agree with your assessment on Kap. He is very good at a lot of things but this still seems to be a problem.

The ONLY thing that gives me pause is that, statistically, we had the same problems (Red Zone failures) with Alex under center and since he is in KC their Red Zone Scoring Percentage sky rocket (2011 32th in the NFL, 2012 32th in the NFL, 2013 5th in the NFL, 2014 4th in the NFL).

It would be fun to dig into the older tapes to see why we were only ranked 30th in 2011 with Alex as our QB.

Sorry for the short reply on Kap. I will take a deeper look as soon as I find some time.



Side Note

You probably already know this site but it is one my favorites and does a lot of work on the Niners http://insidethefilmroom.com/ . If you are not familiar with this site you should check it out !

Also Matt Bowen (former NFL DB) breaks down film from around the NFL on a daily basis http://bleacherreport.com/users/2822152-matt-bowen .



Go Niners !

I really like Insidethefilmroom. The guy is a 49er fan and his cut ups are extremely illustrative. Much nicer looking than my MS Paint skills. He spends so much time making it look nice that I don't think he has time to cut up enough plays. Here, I go for volume and not so much looks. That guy goes for looks and it shows.