Solution to the WR problem

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:

Originally posted by NinerGM:
You can talk about what receivers were "available" but I certainly absolutely didn't see that as the play(s) broke down in real-time.

Again, I am happy to discuss any plays in particular with you... but being vague here isn't going to help any of us dig the truth out.

I'm not being vague. Setting up a list and defining the scope by saying "these were available targets" aren't "facts" to which we can debate on. I'm saying your entire premise for observation is flawed. That's not vague.

Guess we will agree to disagree. Find plays that contradict my findings. If you can't... if you don't... then we have true evidence VS your side-stepping vagueness.

Originally posted by NinerGM:
If Boldin doesn't fall it's a TD. But nooo, he's an available receiver and it's all Kaps fault. QBs only get a certain window to certain portion of the field at a time.

If he hit his first read which was the slant route to KW it's a td as well. That was the designed play called regardless if it's one read or not and and Kaep didn't execute it. If you call a play that is open but not thrown who's fault is it?

Originally posted by NinerGM:

This pass to Q for 9 was a slant against a heavy blitz. The reason why it was one of the few plays that worked because it didn't take forever to develop and it wasn't a 7-step drop. It's what more plays should have been in this offense. Sure there were 3 other receivers running routes, but Boldin was getting the ball - period.

Not true. Had the CB (who was showing press) jammed or the OLB closed in on 3 steps of coverage, then the QB must look for a secondary target read. So that pass is definitely not going to one guy PERIOD. The others are running routes to make themselves available for the QB... you can clearly see Boldin turned back to his QB as an option... if someone else underneath catches the pass instead, of course, it is their jobs to then turn upfield to block for him.

3. 5 receiving options available... checkdown and nice YAC for Gore, but just wasn't enough to dig them out of this 3rd down hole.
Another designed play where Gore wasn't the checkdown, he was the primary receiver because on the previous (and oft used, play-action, read-option), Gore was kept in to block. Stating simply that "5 receiving options available" is not a "fact" because in all three cases these receivers were asked to block downfield.

also not true... Boldin ran a crossing route and was wide open with lots of room to run from hash to sideline... 3 defenders were on Gore's other side.. Kaep prematurely checked down to Gore instead. Had Boldin been simply a decoy? He'd have not run so far wide of Gore.. to better block after the Gore catch. As it was, Kaep not hitting Boldin was dumb...

Originally posted by NinerGM:
Not true simply because you say it isn't? This is the problem here. You have your own set of "facts". And the assumption is made that simply because a WR is running a "route" he's available and not a decoy or clearing out. On the first possession, you can track the QBs eyes all the way - it was a one read throw and if the CB jammed, but it's pretty easy to tell pre-snap if Q is going to be jammed at the LOS - no? This is what I mean. Your quick determination of "available receiving options" IMHO, is just flawed.

No. Watch how close the CB is. He is showing that he can easily jam. You can see the OLB just 3 possible steps away from clogging the slant lane. If Kaep sees either a good jam or the OLB coming in, he HAS to look for... yep, you guess it... another available target. If something is flawed, be specific and we can deal with it together. Be my guest.

Originally posted by NinerGM:
No. You're wrong here bud. Sorry. I watching where the CB is and there's more than enough room to run a slant here - which is what happened. And understand how much spacing is needed to run an effective slant is as specific as anyone needs to get right?

LOL! the WR is on the goal-line... the CB is standing inside the 3 showing what could easily be press...Kaep looks right to him to read that the CB did not press.. and that the OLB did not take steps forward... which means slant is safe... so he threw it. What IF the slant is too well covered???? No one else to throw to as he stands flat-footed in the EZ? Is Boldin not at the 5 yard staring at Kaep as an outlet?

Dude... let's be real here.

... and I am taking my nap now, so you can get the last word for a while, if you need to keep defending this. No hard feelings... this stuff is important to figure out... no matter who is wrong or right.

You guys should get this to Harbaugh, you've done half his film study for him

Why not sign Owens!? We have nothing to loose rightnow, Our pass game couldn't get any worse then it already is.. I bet Owens can out run any receiver on our team rightnow even at his age. we need to get creative since Baalke blew it on not making a trade for a reciever.

Originally posted by Thechad49:
Why not sign Owens!? We have nothing to loose rightnow, Our pass game couldn't get any worse then it already is.. I bet Owens can out run any receiver on our team rightnow even at his age. we need to get creative since Baalke blew it on not making a trade for a reciever.

I would have been okay with this in 2011...but not now..he doesn't have it. He didn't light it up in Canada..why would you think he would do so in the NFL?

Originally posted by Chico:

Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:

Originally posted by Buchy:

Yawn.

When you go back to your bridge I bet you're torn between crawling back underneath it to hide or going to the top to jump and end it all....

There's no need for this. It turns a legit, adult conversation into childish mud-slinging. Be better than this.

lol, children, children...grow up now or go to your room!!!

Anyway, we don't need Jerry Rice & we don't need extra help at the WR position. Boldin is a 10 year vet and knows what he's doing. Crabby Patty is coming back soon and Manningham is a stud (watch his SB catch again). We have stud receivers, we have a stud QB, O-line, RB, etc.

We just got our a$$es handed to us. We played the 2nd best defense in the league that looks strong, powerful & HUNGRY! Our team looked flat after the bye week and that is it! case closed, you may now close this thread! lol

This. Why can't people credit the Panthers awesome defense instead of saying how terrible we are? They could turn out to be like the ravens last year or the giants the last two times they won the super bowl. They were one play away from beating the Seahawks and I bet if they played them next week they'd beat them.

Originally posted by btthepunk:

Originally posted by Chico:

Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:

Originally posted by Buchy:
Yawn.

When you go back to your bridge I bet you're torn between crawling back underneath it to hide or going to the top to jump and end it all....

There's no need for this. It turns a legit, adult conversation into childish mud-slinging. Be better than this.

lol, children, children...grow up now or go to your room!!!

Anyway, we don't need Jerry Rice & we don't need extra help at the WR position. Boldin is a 10 year vet and knows what he's doing. Crabby Patty is coming back soon and Manningham is a stud (watch his SB catch again). We have stud receivers, we have a stud QB, O-line, RB, etc.

We just got our a$$es handed to us. We played the 2nd best defense in the league that looks strong, powerful & HUNGRY! Our team looked flat after the bye week and that is it! case closed, you may now close this thread! lol

This. Why can't people credit the Panthers awesome defense instead of saying how terrible we are? They could turn out to be like the ravens last year or the giants the last two times they won the super bowl. They were one play away from beating the Seahawks and I bet if they played them next week they'd beat them.

The Panthers do have an awesome defense, no doubt.

That is not the issue though, the issue is that our offensive game plan, in fact our entire offense, comes unstuck against teams that play a particular type of def like the Panthers did. The Panthers copied the Rams, Seahawks, Giants, Ravens etc.

The issue is we have shown no improvement or ability to adapt to that defense.

Our passing woes are due to a combination of things....

For one, our WRs simply aren't that good. Boldin is not a #1 WR. Not at this stage of his career. He is a decent #2 option. Vernon Davis is our #1 receiving option. He's the only deep threat and is the only guy that defense have to really game plan for. Manningham is obviously rusty. But even at his best, he's a complimentary receiver.

Next, Kaepernick is an inexperienced QB. He doesn't throw receivers open, he stares down his 1st option, he doesn't get through all of his progressions, etc. He's not a guy like Manning or Brees that can make average WRs look great. Simply not at that level yet.

Lastly, our pass protection was horrible. Not sure if the problem was scheme or guys simply getting beat. But Kaepernick didn't have much time to make plays with his arm. We don't have WRs that can get open fast. They need a little time. Kap isn't being given enough time to make the play against aggressive pass rushes.

The solution is we need more or better receivers, there are huge differences in our receiving core from last year to now. Last year we had Crabtree > Boldin, Moss > Williams, Delanie > McDonald, healthy Vernon> injury prone Vernon... Also our play calling and offensive line play has been suspect as well... I agree Kaep has looked like pure sh!+, it is not entirely his fault either. He will get better, he needs help getting there though. He's not ready to put this team on his back just yet.

Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
So far....

(only plan to remark on pass plays)

possession 1 -

1. run stuffed
2. 4 legit receiving options spotted, PA complete to FB
3. run, great patience and gain Gore
4. 3 obvious receiving targets, near INt on crap throw
5. QB adjusts, runs out of playclock.. timeout for SF
6. great run design and gain by Gore
7. run for minimal
8. 4 receiving targets, short pass to Q
9. run stuffed on a QB read option

FG

possession 2 -

1. run stuffed
2. 4 receiving options, completes to Rio for 9
3. predictable run is stuffed

PUNT

possession 3 -

1. PA, 3 receiving options.. QB freezes, overlooks open FB valve.. eats sack
2. run for 4-5
3. 5 clear receiving options... QB runs instead of throwing to 2 open targets... doesn't get enough for the first

PUNT
49ers recover to regain possession!

1. 5 receiving targets, nice checkdown to Gore over middle for 10.

End of 1st Q - ZERO designed plays where only 1-2 targets are legit pass options.

Mcgibblets, I support your claim that these 1 WR plays are not the foundation of the passing attack. They are used, yes, but it is not how the majority of the pass plays are drawn up. These 1 WR plays are what I consider "go to" plays. Also, there are two types of 1 WR plays. The first kind is where every route runner counts to 3 then blocks for the intended WR. In the CAR game, Boldin got called for offensive pass interference for blocking too soon (pass was to Ham). The other 1 WR type play are the clear out plays where decoys are used to vacate a certain area of the field. These plays work great versus man coverage with VD being schemed to take advantage of the vacated area. You can still throw to a decoy, but you cannot throw to a route runner that is just counting to 3 then starts blocking.

A basic, generic, pass play has one side of the field running a route combination that defeats zone coverage, while the other side of the field has a route combination designed to beat man coverage. It is up to the QB to know which side of the field to go to. As Kap grows mentally, I expect these types of pass plays to get called more often since they are the only true way to beat any type of coverage on any given play. Right now, he struggles with these types of plays. He just doesn't know what he's looking at on a consistent basis. He has to watch the coverage play out and good defenses don't allow the time for that to happen.

Originally posted by thl408:
Mcgibblets, I support your claim that these 1 WR plays are not the foundation of the passing attack. They are used, yes, but it is not how the majority of the pass plays are drawn up. These 1 WR plays are what I consider "go to" plays. Also, there are two types of 1 WR plays. The first kind is where every route runner counts to 3 then blocks for the intended WR. In the CAR game, Boldin got called for offensive pass interference for blocking too soon (pass was to Ham). The other 1 WR type play are the clear out plays where decoys are used to vacate a certain area of the field. These plays work great versus man coverage with VD being schemed to take advantage of the vacated area. You can still throw to a decoy, but you cannot throw to a route runner that is just counting to 3 then starts blocking.

A basic, generic, pass play has one side of the field running a route combination that defeats zone coverage, while the other side of the field has a route combination designed to beat man coverage. It is up to the QB to know which side of the field to go to. As Kap grows mentally, I expect these types of pass plays to get called more often since they are the only true way to beat any type of coverage on any given play. Right now, he struggles with these types of plays. He just doesn't know what he's looking at on a consistent basis. He has to watch the coverage play out and good defenses don't allow the time for that to happen.

Now THAT... is what I would I feel is fair enough.

One 'solution' I can think of regarding the WRs is adding option routes to the mix. This means putting a WR on one side of the field, in isolation, then having him run an option route based off of his read of the coverage in front of him. This adds a layer of complexity to the offense that I don't know if Kap is ready for.

The WR can break off his route short if the CB is playing over the top. He can look for a back shoulder throw if the CB is playing a trail technique (following closely behind the WR). If it's inside technique, then break the route towards the sidelines. If it's outside technique then break inside and back towards the QB. It's a read and react type of concept that I believe can blossom a passing attack.

When done correctly, in theory, no coverage can beat it because it adapts to the coverage being played. I do not see this being used, but I am putting this out there in case someone else does see it being used in the 49er passing attack. I believe GB does this often when I see back shoulder throws that are wildly inaccurate. Rodgers will throw the back shoulder throw and the WR is not even looking for the pass. This leads me to believe that Rodgers read tight coverage, use the back shoulder throw, but the WR is in his own world and running a completely different route. A case of the QB and WR being on a different page. When done correctly, it looks great. When done incorrectly it looks like the QB/WR doesn't know what is going on.