*Strongside Pass Rush

Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
Hey man I have always been a supporter of nnamdi. They had an offensive line coach coaching the defense. I never said to cut either of these guys this year, so where did you get that from? Rogers will be cut next year though. I never considered rogers a pro-bowl caliber cornerback. Yes he made the pro bowl in 11 but did you see him get torched by victor cruz in the nfc championship game? Oh it was raining so that's why he got torched? I've seen rogers get torched more than any other corner on the team. Say what you want about culliver but dude is a stud who is young and has a huge upside. Brown to me has been the most underrated person on the team, and nnamdi CAN flourish in our defense.

Everything said is not aimed at you. Try to relax and not read unintended meaning into posts. Many were upset at picking up the "washed up" Asomugha and many think Rogers is washed up. Both are 31 years old and may have quite a few years left in the tank. Rogers played in the pro bowl year before last and Aso has been a pro bowler numerous times. They could both have great years playing as book ends, or as 2nd and 3rd CBs if Brown or Culliver step up.

The great thing about this situation is the help they will all be able to give to Reid in learning how to play NFL football...along with Whitner...another guy many want to cut. This year the talent level took a hit at a couple of positions, but most positions have improved. The two positions that lost veterans are NT and QB...everywhere else is more solid, some positions by a great deal. I would include CB and DL (excluding NT) in that category.

The whole premise of this thread is loopy. Brooks and Mac are solid players. PFF rates them solidly. There's only one player on the team with solid sack numbers, because that's the scheme. I think the scheme can be improved. Part of that improvement might be to get the front seven less than 1000 snaps. Their injuries will decrease, production will go up, which actually might mean fewer tackles assists sacks because they are off the field more. The players are fine. Brooks came up with a boatload of money plays last season. To speculate about how he might be replaced by some rookie whose never taken an NFL snap is really weird.

Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
Yeah that does make it a bit more unlikely. I just figured since he put up that great of a 40 that he was on track to be ready for preseason. Still though this will give him a chance to put on some weight and focus on his upper body strength. If he is healthy and gets strong enough to take on nfl lineman, than why not line him up across from Justin? He has a lot to learn no doubt but like you said he is learning from the best 3-4 d-end in the league and one of the best d line coaches if not the best. You never know how fast a player can pick up a defense. He can continue to develop and still play. On top of all that he can still be Justin Smith's replacement.

Like you said we haven't seen either of them play yet so how can we automatically say, no they won't do it. Or there is a close to impossible chance that lemonier starts over brooks? It could happen this season, or it could happen in the next season or 2. But both the guys that we drafted are very atheletic.. Lemonier ran a 4.6 and did 30 reps of 225. Carradine ran a 4.7 when he was hurt and was rumored to run upwards of 4.6, def needs a lil bit more weight to fit in our system though.

The fact still remains that above all else rogers and brooks are getting paid more than they are worth. To me they are getting paid a lot more than even other teams would be willing to pay them at this point. But the fact that we have so many all-star caliber players that their value to our team is even less. Who's more important Brooks and rogers? Or Kaep and Aldon Smith? Or Crabtree and Iupati? We can't keep all these guys.

I seem to remember he discredited that 4.7 in an interview saying it was closer to 4.9 .

Originally posted by buck:

Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:

The fact still remains that above all else rogers and brooks are getting paid more than they are worth.

But the fact that we have so many all-star caliber players that their value to our team is even less.

Your are entitled to your own opinion, but I think that you are getting facts and your opinions confused.

No it is a fact. If you compared his production and importance to the team mixed in with his cap and compared it to the likes of others on the team, you would see that he is indeed overpaid like rogers.

Originally posted by GNielsen:
What is it about some fans who can look at a play like that and still think of something snide to say about it? Pretty sad, IMO.

It was a badass play no doubt. I wasn't trying to be snide just saying did you expect anything else? Pretty much everyone on the defense plays with that sort of intensity. Pretty much every player would do the same thing mac did.

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
The whole premise of this thread is loopy. Brooks and Mac are solid players. PFF rates them solidly. There's only one player on the team with solid sack numbers, because that's the scheme. I think the scheme can be improved. Part of that improvement might be to get the front seven less than 1000 snaps. Their injuries will decrease, production will go up, which actually might mean fewer tackles assists sacks because they are off the field more. The players are fine. Brooks came up with a boatload of money plays last season. To speculate about how he might be replaced by some rookie whose never taken an NFL snap is really weird.

I don't care how PFF ranks them. You know it's funny that everyone points to goldston's production as being a product of a good system. Yet you guys are saying the opposite of brooks and mac saying they make the system what it is and make it easier on everyone else. Ever think they might benefit from being in a good system too? So much is asked of Bowman and Willis that it makes it easier on everyone else around them.

Originally posted by LoneWolf:
I gotta ask you, why are you advocating so hard that RayMac and Brooks deserve to be replaced? And how do you figure Brooks is getting overpayed, I understand Rogers getting overpayed, but Brooks really? I understand that we have alot of all star quality players but we also have an all star quality front office that has been managing salarys, drafting etc etc, better then most teams fo's in the NFL. We also have alot of unselfish players that have been taking reductions on there salaries to keep the team together, It takes some seriously smart front office workers, and seriously willing team mates to be able to lower salaries to the point we can sign all the players we need to and keep everyone happy. Although I doubt we can sign Iupati, Kaep, Crabtree (most likely to be gone IMO), and Aldon one will most likely no longer be a Niner, but s**t like that happens in the NFL. You cant keep them all together forever.

I think brooks is overpaid if you consider the production and importance to the team of others that are getting paid less than him. Aldon Kaep Crabs Iupati ect.. I think the reason I am so hard on brooks is because I don't see this hidden superstar everyone is making him out to be. I see a very solid player but not supremely athletic. The qb's coming into the league are getting faster and faster. Brooks is getting older and slower. But believe me I think brooks and mac are starting caliber players on a lot of other teams and are def up to par. Just think we might have a lil bit more talent in tank, and possibly lemonier. But only time will tell.

Obviously, I disagree as Brooks is making $5,050,000 (base = $2,700,000) in base salary this year. He is due to make $7,500,000 (base - $5,150,000) next year. This is nothing for a 2-time probowl alternate (where only WILL OLB's make it) and 2nd team all pro. We can agree to disagree, naturally. Again, I think you are gravely confusing and lumping in the two types of OLB's and their responsibilities which are very very different. If you were to compare Brooks' numbers and overall value to this team compared to all SAM OLB's, Brooks signed a very reasonable contract for us and you KNOW this FO does their homework. He was the first one we signed. It's now coming out that he played hurt at the end of the season with a shoulder injury but was again, the only OLB that did anything for us not only when it mattered most, but consistently through the playoffs/Superbowl.

If you really want to blow your mind, go compare his contract to some WILL OLB's who have had 13 collective sacks over the past two years (if that's the stat you are focused on). Another thing of note, TFL are sacks and the NFL is very very poor at tracking these properly (like tackles). I can personally tell you, by team stats (sometimes released), he is typically leading the team. If you really want to get into his "value" also consider the countless sacks he lost d/t penalties and tackles of QB's from behind for a 1 yard gain. God, he must have had 6 of those alone last year...no joke. So his "sack value" is well into the double digit area which is the equivalent of a WILL OLB getting 20+. He was also THE best OLB in the red zone, accounting for numerous stops and forcing rushed incomplete passes that would have been easy TD's had the QB rolled to his left instead of his right. Brooks is so quick at diagnosing a play, he is in the backfield chasing the QB...people don't realize how hard this is. He is in no-man's zone...he either has to rush the passer or drop back with the wide open TE. If he goes with the TE the QB can run for a TD. If he rushes the QB and doesn't get there, the TE is wide open in the EZ. He not only has to diagnose the play but know where his help is while then making a split second decision. Nobody is better, or even close to him, when it comes to play recognition. This is experience or in your case, "age."

So its all in how you value a player not only at his position compared to the rest of the league (SAM) but the value he brings to your OWN defense.

My advice to you is to focus less on sack numbers and grouping OLB's together and more on the the complete skill set and responsibilities required of each in our defense. It sounds like we may have gotten both Brooks, McDonald and Aldon and Justin some help and depth this year (finally) which, ideally, should help everyone down the stretch. That is our solution. But don't expect Lemonier to come in this year or even next year and take Brooks' spot. It takes a good three years to learn to be a complete OLB in this defense, in particular and the SAM position has even more responsibilities than the WILL.

After the 2014 season, then we are looking at a possible restructure like a lot of vets we're seeing this year @ $8,350,000 ($6,000,000). So I agree there.

On another note, I also could not agree with you more re: Carlos Rogers. I thought it was very important to get this guy signed like we all did but this past year, he kicked me in the gut by getting pwned all year and playing 1/2-assed. I can't remember a single play he made for us that mattered. If he had actually knocked down that Boldin pass in the Superbowl, I'd "consider" he earned his contract. See post #57: http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/niners/173301-carlos-rodgers-thinks-hes-starter/page4/

On a side note, Dorsey seems like a real humble dude...seems to be getting really coached up well and focusing on his technique (e.g. foot work, angles, leverage, etc.). Again, we continue to use the NT/DE interchangeably as well (not a fan but)...he alludes to this, although playing "outside" may mean inside DT on a 4-man DL as well rather than NT lined up over the C. http://www.49ers.com/news/article-2/Glenn-Dorsey-Enjoys-Fresh-Start/707d679a-f39d-4995-a6af-c08be977544b

Dont sleep on Cam Johnson either ... the kid has first round ability hopefully he'll take a big step this year cause if he can I have no doubt he'll contribute to our pass rush this year

Originally posted by NCommand:
Obviously, I disagree as Brooks is making $5,050,000 (base = $2,700,000) in base salary this year. He is due to make $7,500,000 (base - $5,150,000) next year. This is nothing for a 2-time probowl alternate (where only WILL OLB's make it) and 2nd team all pro. We can agree to disagree, naturally. Again, I think you are gravely confusing and lumping in the two types of OLB's and their responsibilities which are very very different. If you were to compare Brooks' numbers and overall value to this team compared to all SAM OLB's, Brooks signed a very reasonable contract for us and you KNOW this FO does their homework. He was the first one we signed. It's now coming out that he played hurt at the end of the season with a shoulder injury but was again, the only OLB that did anything for us not only when it mattered most, but consistently through the playoffs/Superbowl.

If you really want to blow your mind, go compare his contract to some WILL OLB's who have had 13 collective sacks over the past two years (if that's the stat you are focused on). Another thing of note, TFL are sacks and the NFL is very very poor at tracking these properly (like tackles). I can personally tell you, by team stats (sometimes released), he is typically leading the team. If you really want to get into his "value" also consider the countless sacks he lost d/t penalties and tackles of QB's from behind for a 1 yard gain. God, he must have had 6 of those alone last year...no joke. So his "sack value" is well into the double digit area which is the equivalent of a WILL OLB getting 20+. He was also THE best OLB in the red zone, accounting for numerous stops and forcing rushed incomplete passes that would have been easy TD's had the QB rolled to his left instead of his right. Brooks is so quick at diagnosing a play, he is in the backfield chasing the QB...people don't realize how hard this is. He is in no-man's zone...he either has to rush the passer or drop back with the wide open TE. If he goes with the TE the QB can run for a TD. If he rushes the QB and doesn't get there, the TE is wide open in the EZ. He not only has to diagnose the play but know where his help is while then making a split second decision. Nobody is better, or even close to him, when it comes to play recognition. This is experience or in your case, "age."

So its all in how you value a player not only at his position compared to the rest of the league (SAM) but the value he brings to your OWN defense.

My advice to you is to focus less on sack numbers and grouping OLB's together and more on the the complete skill set and responsibilities required of each in our defense. It sounds like we may have gotten both Brooks, McDonald and Aldon and Justin some help and depth this year (finally) which, ideally, should help everyone down the stretch. That is our solution. But don't expect Lemonier to come in this year or even next year and take Brooks' spot. It takes a good three years to learn to be a complete OLB in this defense, in particular and the SAM position has even more responsibilities than the WILL.

After the 2014 season, then we are looking at a possible restructure like a lot of vets we're seeing this year @ $8,350,000 ($6,000,000). So I agree there.

On another note, I also could not agree with you more re: Carlos Rogers. I thought it was very important to get this guy signed like we all did but this past year, he kicked me in the gut by getting pwned all year and playing 1/2-assed. I can't remember a single play he made for us that mattered. If he had actually knocked down that Boldin pass in the Superbowl, I'd "consider" he earned his contract. See post #57: http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/niners/173301-carlos-rodgers-thinks-hes-starter/page4/

On a side note, Dawson seems like a real humble dude...seems to be getting really coached up well and focusing on his technique (e.g. foot work, angles, leverage, etc.). Again, we continue to use the NT/DE interchangeably as well (not a fan but)...he alludes to this, although playing "outside" may mean inside DT on a 4-man DL as well rather than NT lined up over the C. http://www.49ers.com/news/article-2/Glenn-Dorsey-Enjoys-Fresh-Start/707d679a-f39d-4995-a6af-c08be977544b

You were referring to Dorsey at the end not dawson correct?

Noone on the team is better at recognizing plays or nobody at his position in the league? either way your wrong IMO.

I was never saying brooks was going to be cut this year so I was referring to his 7.5 mil contract and the year after at 8.35.

When I brought up the statistic of 3-4 OLB's in the league compared to brooks and aldon, there were some sam and some will linebackers. Notice how I listed 2 for each team so I don't know why you keep saying that.

Like I stated before brooks pass defense isn't very great and he isn't the best at getting after the qb. He doesn't even rack up very many tackles as you can see by the statistics.

Again like I said brooks' value to the team isn't as great as kaep aldon crabtree or Iupati. He might lead the team in tackles for loss but that isn't a big shocker because teams typically run to the strong side more often than the weak side, so he has more opportunities.

I shouldn't have to tell you that age and experience are 2 different things. Anthony Davis has a good amount of experience and is what 22 or 23 because he came into the league at 20. He does have a good amount of experience since he has been in the league for a while but so does willis and willis is a much better player IMO>

Your acting like tackles for 1 yard gains and sacks are the same thing and they aren't. A lot of our players stop runningbacks or qbs for no gain or a couple yards all the time. And don't feed me this bs about how many sacks he hadsome taken away from penalties, that shouldn't even be brought up.

Saying he is the best olb in the league in the red zone is laughable. He chased down Russel Wilson really well last year now didn't he? lol how about A rod or Christian ponder when we played them?

How are you going to tell me it is going to take 3 years for him to be complete enough to compete with brooks? Do you know how quickly he can pick it up? I've seen plenty of lolb's come in and start from day 1. On top of that quarterback is a lot tougher to learn and there has been plenty of qbs that have started from day 1. First round picks later round picks, it doesn't matter. There is a competition right now and that is why he was drafted, who knows how long it will take him to grasp the defense but it's def a possibility it could happen late this year.

Let's agree to disagree.

Originally posted by NCommand:

On a side note, you never mentioned if all these injured players are really starting to concern you a lot. If you don't want to answer that is fine, I don't mind but it is starting to concern me. We have been fortunate to remain relatively healthy over the past couple of years. The only reason I'm not overly concerned is because Kaep will be our starter for the full season this year. I actually saw Kaep the other day as my cousin was graduating from pitman highschool in Turlock. He def stole the show. I actually went to the same high school as Kaep and he was in the first graduating class at pitman high. Not bragging just thought it was cool that I went to the same high school as kaep and my dad went to the same high school at jeff Garcia in Gilroy.

Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:

Originally posted by LoneWolf:
I gotta ask you, why are you advocating so hard that RayMac and Brooks deserve to be replaced? And how do you figure Brooks is getting overpayed, I understand Rogers getting overpayed, but Brooks really? I understand that we have alot of all star quality players but we also have an all star quality front office that has been managing salarys, drafting etc etc, better then most teams fo's in the NFL. We also have alot of unselfish players that have been taking reductions on there salaries to keep the team together, It takes some seriously smart front office workers, and seriously willing team mates to be able to lower salaries to the point we can sign all the players we need to and keep everyone happy. Although I doubt we can sign Iupati, Kaep, Crabtree (most likely to be gone IMO), and Aldon one will most likely no longer be a Niner, but s**t like that happens in the NFL. You cant keep them all together forever.

I think brooks is overpaid if you consider the production and importance to the team of others that are getting paid less than him. Aldon Kaep Crabs Iupati ect.. I think the reason I am so hard on brooks is because I don't see this hidden superstar everyone is making him out to be. I see a very solid player but not supremely athletic. The qb's coming into the league are getting faster and faster. Brooks is getting older and slower. But believe me I think brooks and mac are starting caliber players on a lot of other teams and are def up to par. Just think we might have a lil bit more talent in tank, and possibly lemonier. But only time will tell.

Those guys you named are on their rookie deals. Of course they are going to be making more. Also, to call Brooks a starting caliber player on a lot of other teams doesn't fully give the guy his due. He was 2nd team All-Pro for crying out loud. That puts him in the upper echelon of outside linebackers.

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
Those guys you named are on their rookie deals. Of course they are going to be making more. Also, to call Brooks a starting caliber player on a lot of other teams doesn't fully give the guy his due. He was 2nd team All-Pro for crying out loud. That puts him in the upper echelon of outside linebackers.

Ok but who would that money be better invested in? Brooks or the other 4 guys I mentioned. Obviously 7-8 mil isn't going to sign all these players but it is probably the amount iupati or crabtree will ask for. So again I ask who would you rather pay the money to, crabtree and Iupati/aldon smith or rogers and brooks? Do you disagree that crabtree iupati and smith are all more valuable than brooks?

Look brooks is a good player. Most fans of other teams def. underrate this guy but it seems like mostly everyone I've talked to on the zone overrates him. That's just my opinion...

Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:

Originally posted by NCommand:

On a side note, you never mentioned if all these injured players are really starting to concern you a lot. If you don't want to answer that is fine, I don't mind but it is starting to concern me. We have been fortunate to remain relatively healthy over the past couple of years. The only reason I'm not overly concerned is because Kaep will be our starter for the full season this year. I actually saw Kaep the other day as my cousin was graduating from pitman highschool in Turlock. He def stole the show. I actually went to the same high school as Kaep and he was in the first graduating class at pitman high. Not bragging just thought it was cool that I went to the same high school as kaep and my dad went to the same high school at jeff Garcia in Gilroy.

Sorry, missed that original question. No worries...think you're way off base on Brooks in particular but we can agree to disagree on that one. Maybe you can tell us/me what would be realistic and satisfactory numbers for a SAM OLB in our 3-4? B/c it seems like you actually have more issues with the type of 3-4 we run (Fangio - scheme) and salary cap implications down the road (which we should know by now, this FO will surely take care of it better than any team in the NFL).

Yeah, I'm very concerned and our coaching staff has a way of absolutely minimizing these. Check out this list. It's legit and it's only May/June. And genuinely, we don't truly have timetables for these guys. It appears on the surface that most will be OK by training camp but that is quite a list (even given the quality of players on that list). Hopefully, it just means that we're getting our injuries out of the way early!

http://blog.sfgate.com/49ers/2013/05/31/medical-report-a-rundown-of-14-nicked-up-niners/

PS: Thanks for the correction, yes obviously meant Dorsey not Dawson.