Week 12: Thoughts after re-watching the game....

Originally posted by valrod33:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by valrod33:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
3) Edwards:


Edwards said he was trying to set the cornerback up with an inside move and then go outside. Smith said he thought Edwards had committed to the inside and threw the ball there. "He saw one thing and I saw another," Edwards said. Read more: http://blogs.sacbee.com/49ers/archives/2011/11/edwards-says-hes-been-dealing-with-shoulder-sprain-for-three-weeks.html#ixzz1f2e4HZSJ

So Braylon ran the route as designed. Don't know why Alex wouldn't throw it to the outside.

First part. How did you get that from that quote?
Second part. Uh read the quote again he tells you why

Key word "...set the CB up..." That means it was designed to go outside but he was setting the CB up prior to getting into his actual route.

Sounds to me like it was an option route.

Let's say it was an option and Braylon stayed inside. It's still not a good throw. It was still a 9 route. WR's and QB's fully know that a ball should be thrown to the sidelines and WR's are always prepared to fade towards the sideline while the ball is in the air once they have a step on the defender inside or outside. Braylon had the step either way and Alex threw it in the worst spot imaginable.

Alex thinks too much.

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Good to hear those things from the Ravens' players, especially Rice, who appeared to be very cocky yet comical in the Sound FX.

I still don't agree with that throw being half Braylon's fault. The WORST spot to throw a ball on a DB that has inside position is inside. That is nearly the most difficult spot for the receiver to make any play on a ball. The DB plays that ball as if he is the receiver. Braylon would have had to make an incredible catch that would have noted as one of the best catches of the year if he made that. It was a bad throw in a spot that allowed the DB to act as a receiver. Those are not even close to 50% on the WR.

Agree, 100 percent.

Statements like this make it difficult for me to accept other observations as credibale. If you watch the video, Braylon even tried to punch it out or get his hand in there, but couldn't. That is not even 1 percent Braylons fault.

BS.

If a WR makes the wrong read on a timing pattern but tries to break up the pass late its still his fault. It doesn't absolve him of the blame for making an error to begin with.

I'm not saying the INT was all Edwards fault. It was tho at LEAST 50% his fault.

As for the "inside position is the worst" comment...thats ludicrous. If Alex thought was where Edwards was headed, thats where you throw it. This is the NFL...you throw the ball and trust your reciever to make a play on the ball.

it was a 9 route. you should always throw it to the outside part of the field. It's the receiver's job to get under it inside step or outside. The entire premise is that your receiver will get one step on their DB and as long as he has a step, he can begin his fade to the sideline to get under the ball.

The FS is the reason why you don't throw a 9 route inside, EVER.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by valrod33:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by valrod33:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
3) Edwards:


Edwards said he was trying to set the cornerback up with an inside move and then go outside. Smith said he thought Edwards had committed to the inside and threw the ball there. "He saw one thing and I saw another," Edwards said. Read more: http://blogs.sacbee.com/49ers/archives/2011/11/edwards-says-hes-been-dealing-with-shoulder-sprain-for-three-weeks.html#ixzz1f2e4HZSJ

So Braylon ran the route as designed. Don't know why Alex wouldn't throw it to the outside.

First part. How did you get that from that quote?
Second part. Uh read the quote again he tells you why

Key word "...set the CB up..." That means it was designed to go outside but he was setting the CB up prior to getting into his actual route.

Sounds to me like it was an option route.

Let's say it was an option and Braylon stayed inside. It's still not a good throw. It was still a 9 route. WR's and QB's fully know that a ball should be thrown to the sidelines and WR's are always prepared to fade towards the sideline while the ball is in the air once they have a step on the defender inside or outside. Braylon had the step either way and Alex threw it in the worst spot imaginable.

Alex thinks too much.

LOL...wow. Some peeps just really want to make everything Alexs fault.

Was it a perfect throw? Of course not.

Was Edwards culpable for the INT. YES.

I don't hear anyone calling the throw to Ginn for a TD that was called back a "bad throw". Where was the ball. To the INSIDE. Just like Alex thought Edwards was doing.

Great summation as usual, Marvin49. Your posts such as these are one of the reasons I check out the Webzone. They allow me to gain additional insight and perspective on the Niners from a fellow fan who knows something about the team and also the game of football.

Some additional thoughts to what you've covered here:

1) The nine sacks were a HUGE reason for this loss...we still almost overcame it with the stellar play of the D

2) Whitner has a history of making a lot of tackles in his career, but he has shown this year that he misses some key tackles as well. I like him and I think he'll shore this up along with improving his coverage ability when called upon (all he has to do is knock that ball down in the end zone vs. the Ravens...he was right there). I think continued good coaching will really help him. We've signed him for three years and he's still only 26...we have to hope he continues to improve

3) Where has Delanie Walker been as a received these past weeks? I know he had to block more this past game, but we need him with our receiving corp being limited with injuries, experience, etc. Supposedly, he was open for a long TD on that first play of the last game...I saw a replay of that, and I also saw Ed Reed lurking not far from Walker.

4) Anthony Davis is an improving and still VERY young RT...I really like what the future holds for him as our starting RT for years to come. What he needs is an experienced and decent RG to play next to him regularly. Snyder has shown to be somewhat capable - hopefully, he won't be out too much longer. Rachal shows some ability at times, but too many times he has breakdowns and just doesn't compliment Davis well at all (such as on stunts, etc.). There must be something about Rachal that we as fans aren't seeing, though, as the coaching staff continues to believe in him (at least that's what they're telling us...I wonder if Boone can play RG? I like Kilgore's long-term potential, but he's only a rookie and not sure how well he'd do next to Davis at this point in his career).

5) Overall and all things considered, this wasn't a terrible game for us. Given all that went wrong, it was still tied 6-6 at the start of the 4th quarter and a very winnable game for us. Now, we're 9-2. What I want to see now is how we respond to this loss and get to 10-2. How will we play in our next game vs. the Rams? I think we'll be stronger from the Ravens game with the coaching staff we have in place along with the mix of experience and talent we have. One last thing to remember: Our O and our D are still getting to know the ins and outs of the schemes we've recently had installed...they've only been practicing and learning these schemes for a little over three months. I'm sure (and keep hearing) there's a lot left to learn in the offensive playbook. This team will continue to improve under this coaching staff.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Good to hear those things from the Ravens' players, especially Rice, who appeared to be very cocky yet comical in the Sound FX.

I still don't agree with that throw being half Braylon's fault. The WORST spot to throw a ball on a DB that has inside position is inside. That is nearly the most difficult spot for the receiver to make any play on a ball. The DB plays that ball as if he is the receiver. Braylon would have had to make an incredible catch that would have noted as one of the best catches of the year if he made that. It was a bad throw in a spot that allowed the DB to act as a receiver. Those are not even close to 50% on the WR.

Agree, 100 percent.

Statements like this make it difficult for me to accept other observations as credibale. If you watch the video, Braylon even tried to punch it out or get his hand in there, but couldn't. That is not even 1 percent Braylons fault.

BS.

If a WR makes the wrong read on a timing pattern but tries to break up the pass late its still his fault. It doesn't absolve him of the blame for making an error to begin with.

I'm not saying the INT was all Edwards fault. It was tho at LEAST 50% his fault.

As for the "inside position is the worst" comment...thats ludicrous. If Alex thought was where Edwards was headed, thats where you throw it. This is the NFL...you throw the ball and trust your reciever to make a play on the ball.

it was a 9 route. you should always throw it to the outside part of the field. It's the receiver's job to get under it inside step or outside. The entire premise is that your receiver will get one step on their DB and as long as he has a step, he can begin his fade to the sideline to get under the ball.

The FS is the reason why you don't throw a 9 route inside, EVER.

How do you know it was a 9 route? Was the FS ANYWHERE near the ball when Alex threw it inside?

Stop making stuff up.

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by valrod33:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by valrod33:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
3) Edwards:


Edwards said he was trying to set the cornerback up with an inside move and then go outside. Smith said he thought Edwards had committed to the inside and threw the ball there. "He saw one thing and I saw another," Edwards said. Read more: http://blogs.sacbee.com/49ers/archives/2011/11/edwards-says-hes-been-dealing-with-shoulder-sprain-for-three-weeks.html#ixzz1f2e4HZSJ

So Braylon ran the route as designed. Don't know why Alex wouldn't throw it to the outside.

First part. How did you get that from that quote?
Second part. Uh read the quote again he tells you why

Key word "...set the CB up..." That means it was designed to go outside but he was setting the CB up prior to getting into his actual route.

Sounds to me like it was an option route.

Let's say it was an option and Braylon stayed inside. It's still not a good throw. It was still a 9 route. WR's and QB's fully know that a ball should be thrown to the sidelines and WR's are always prepared to fade towards the sideline while the ball is in the air once they have a step on the defender inside or outside. Braylon had the step either way and Alex threw it in the worst spot imaginable.

Alex thinks too much.

LOL...wow. Some peeps just really want to make everything Alexs fault.

Was it a perfect throw? Of course not.

Was Edwards culpable for the INT. YES.

I don't hear anyone calling the throw to Ginn for a TD that was called back a "bad throw". Where was the ball. To the INSIDE. Just like Alex thought Edwards was doing.

Great point about the Ginn throw. So you are saying Alex was 50% of the reason for Ginn catching that ball even though it was a terribly underthrown ball? Keep throwing those short and inside and INT's will happen much more than not. A receiver is not 50% responsible on throws like that. He MAY bail out a QB who is 100% responsible for a terrible throw but the INT was WAAY more Alex's fault than 50%.

Originally posted by Marvin49:
How do you know it was a 9 route? Was the FS ANYWHERE near the ball when Alex threw it inside?

Stop making stuff up.

I didn't say the FS was there. I said QB's are taught to throw that closer to the sidelines because the FS can get there if those are thrown to the inside. It's what they are taught to do for the pass to be a higher percentage pass. Alex keeps throwing those inside and paid for it the second time.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Marvin49:
How do you know it was a 9 route? Was the FS ANYWHERE near the ball when Alex threw it inside?

Stop making stuff up.

I didn't say the FS was there. I said QB's are taught to throw that closer to the sidelines because the FS can get there if those are thrown to the inside. It's what they are taught to do for the pass to be a higher percentage pass. Alex keeps throwing those inside and paid for it the second time.

...and I'm saying the FS WASN'T in the middle of the field so it wasn't a terrible choice to throw it inside. QBs also very often UNDERTHROW the ball to allow a tall reciever (Edwards is 6'3") to go up on a jump ball over the DB (DB was 5'9").

Look, I'm not saying it was a perfect throw. I'm just saying that it wasn't necessarily the WRONG throw. All we know is what they have said they were thinking. We DON'T know what the call was.

On another note, I'd stay away from saying things like NEVER, or ALWAYS.....they really don't apply to this offense.

You should never throw the ball to your LT. They Do. You shouldn't employ the inverted wishbone. They do. The entire offense is unconventional so I'm not buying the "it should ALWAYS be thrown outside so its ALL Smiths fault" line of thinking.

Sorry.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by valrod33:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by valrod33:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
3) Edwards:


Edwards said he was trying to set the cornerback up with an inside move and then go outside. Smith said he thought Edwards had committed to the inside and threw the ball there. "He saw one thing and I saw another," Edwards said. Read more: http://blogs.sacbee.com/49ers/archives/2011/11/edwards-says-hes-been-dealing-with-shoulder-sprain-for-three-weeks.html#ixzz1f2e4HZSJ

So Braylon ran the route as designed. Don't know why Alex wouldn't throw it to the outside.

First part. How did you get that from that quote?
Second part. Uh read the quote again he tells you why

Key word "...set the CB up..." That means it was designed to go outside but he was setting the CB up prior to getting into his actual route.

Sounds to me like it was an option route.

Let's say it was an option and Braylon stayed inside. It's still not a good throw. It was still a 9 route. WR's and QB's fully know that a ball should be thrown to the sidelines and WR's are always prepared to fade towards the sideline while the ball is in the air once they have a step on the defender inside or outside. Braylon had the step either way and Alex threw it in the worst spot imaginable.

Alex thinks too much.

LOL...wow. Some peeps just really want to make everything Alexs fault.

Was it a perfect throw? Of course not.

Was Edwards culpable for the INT. YES.

I don't hear anyone calling the throw to Ginn for a TD that was called back a "bad throw". Where was the ball. To the INSIDE. Just like Alex thought Edwards was doing.

Great point about the Ginn throw. So you are saying Alex was 50% of the reason for Ginn catching that ball even though it was a terribly underthrown ball? Keep throwing those short and inside and INT's will happen much more than not. A receiver is not 50% responsible on throws like that. He MAY bail out a QB who is 100% responsible for a terrible throw but the INT was WAAY more Alex's fault than 50%.

Again...I'm not talking about the quality of the throw. I'm saying it wasn't necessarily the WRONG throw. The fact that another WR ran inside on a similar route pretty much discounts your "the throw should ALWAYS be outside" theory.

Originally posted by Marvin49:
Again...I'm not talking about the quality of the throw. I'm saying it wasn't necessarily the WRONG throw. The fact that another WR ran inside on a similar route pretty much discounts your "the throw should ALWAYS be outside" theory.

It SHOULD always be thrown to the outside. The reason they are taught this is because an inside throw increases the chances for an INT. It's about increasing the odds of a positive play. Since Alex was the one who decreased the odds of the play having a chance to be positive, he was more at fault. To say it was 50% is 100% inaccurate.

A QB should always try to throw with both feet set but one who keeps throwing off his back foot will most likely throw more INTs.

Just because it worked once doesn't mean it wasn't a terrible throw and a low percentage pass.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Marvin49:
Again...I'm not talking about the quality of the throw. I'm saying it wasn't necessarily the WRONG throw. The fact that another WR ran inside on a similar route pretty much discounts your "the throw should ALWAYS be outside" theory.

It SHOULD always be thrown to the outside. The reason they are taught this is because an inside throw increases the chances for an INT. It's about increasing the odds of a positive play. Since Alex was the one who decreased the odds of the play having a chance to be positive, he was more at fault. To say it was 50% is 100% inaccurate.

A QB should always try to throw with both feet set but one who keeps throwing off his back foot will most likely throw more INTs.

Just because it worked once doesn't mean it wasn't a terrible throw and a low percentage pass.

You aren't understanding me.

I understand why you USUALLY don't throw inside. Typically, when you do so it allows the FS time to get over because its a shorter distant to travel. However, if you run play action and the Safety cheats up, its a lower risk throw.

If you see the WR cut inside as you throw and then he cuts back while the ball is in the air......I just dunno how that is all the QB.

If he throws outside and the receiver runs inside.....its overthrown by 10 yards. The QB has to trust the WRs body language. He thought Edwards was running inside.

You are making the assumption that it was a flat "Go" route. We don't know that. I mentioned Ginn because it was a similar play on the other side of the field and the receiver DID in fact run inside. If the reciever runs inside he can attempt to shield the defender not unlike he's supposed to on a slant.

I'm said before that the throw wasn't perfect, but you are making alot of assumptions that aren't as set in stone as you would like to believe.

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by valrod33:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by valrod33:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
3) Edwards:


Edwards said he was trying to set the cornerback up with an inside move and then go outside. Smith said he thought Edwards had committed to the inside and threw the ball there. "He saw one thing and I saw another," Edwards said. Read more: http://blogs.sacbee.com/49ers/archives/2011/11/edwards-says-hes-been-dealing-with-shoulder-sprain-for-three-weeks.html#ixzz1f2e4HZSJ

So Braylon ran the route as designed. Don't know why Alex wouldn't throw it to the outside.

First part. How did you get that from that quote?
Second part. Uh read the quote again he tells you why

Key word "...set the CB up..." That means it was designed to go outside but he was setting the CB up prior to getting into his actual route.

Sounds to me like it was an option route.

Let's say it was an option and Braylon stayed inside. It's still not a good throw. It was still a 9 route. WR's and QB's fully know that a ball should be thrown to the sidelines and WR's are always prepared to fade towards the sideline while the ball is in the air once they have a step on the defender inside or outside. Braylon had the step either way and Alex threw it in the worst spot imaginable.

Alex thinks too much.

LOL...wow. Some peeps just really want to make everything Alexs fault.

Was it a perfect throw? Of course not.

Was Edwards culpable for the INT. YES.

I don't hear anyone calling the throw to Ginn for a TD that was called back a "bad throw". Where was the ball. To the INSIDE. Just like Alex thought Edwards was doing.

Great point about the Ginn throw. So you are saying Alex was 50% of the reason for Ginn catching that ball even though it was a terribly underthrown ball? Keep throwing those short and inside and INT's will happen much more than not. A receiver is not 50% responsible on throws like that. He MAY bail out a QB who is 100% responsible for a terrible throw but the INT was WAAY more Alex's fault than 50%.

Again...I'm not talking about the quality of the throw. I'm saying it wasn't necessarily the WRONG throw. The fact that another WR ran inside on a similar route pretty much discounts your "the throw should ALWAYS be outside" theory.

You guys are comedy acting like you know something should have happened one way or another, or that things in football are absolutes -- a route is "always" thrown one way is comical. If it was always thrown one way, then the defense would know that too!! And ALWAYS be in position to defend it. Comedy.

Why don't you take what has been said and realize as with many situations, in the heat of the moment, 3 people can have read the play 3 different ways! Smith read Edwards as going inside (where his big body in front of the db would be a HUGE advantage), Edwards admits he pressed inside at first to get space on the outside (and that makes sense too), and the head coach -- HEAD COACH -- thought it should have been a back shoulder throw -- which is an alternative way of throwing a 9 route!! So right there you see there are two ways to throw the same darn route.

The reality is that B.E.'s limited playing and practice time is exactly what causes this minor miscues that can have big impacts. These things start to resolve as an offense (all members) play together over time and learn how to play well together and anticipate each other's moves. That goes for the Oline, RBs following their Olines and leads and reads, WR adjusting their routes in sync with the QB and blitzes.

Its not a game of absolutes -- it's more art than people would like to admit. That is why when it looks easy, a la Montana/Walsh, Brady, Manning, etc -- its called artistry.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Marvin49:
Again...I'm not talking about the quality of the throw. I'm saying it wasn't necessarily the WRONG throw. The fact that another WR ran inside on a similar route pretty much discounts your "the throw should ALWAYS be outside" theory.

It SHOULD always be thrown to the outside. The reason they are taught this is because an inside throw increases the chances for an INT. It's about increasing the odds of a positive play. Since Alex was the one who decreased the odds of the play having a chance to be positive, he was more at fault. To say it was 50% is 100% inaccurate.

A QB should always try to throw with both feet set but one who keeps throwing off his back foot will most likely throw more INTs.

Just because it worked once doesn't mean it wasn't a terrible throw and a low percentage pass.

If Edwards should have gone inside, it was a good throw. We heard Alex tell Edwards on the sidelines that he should have gone inside two times, if he does its a 49er TD. Edwards had a bad game and so did the O-Line, 2 bad calls and 9 sacks on the road and you lose almost all the time in the NFL NO MATTER WHO YOU PLAY! I don't know what film angle you are looking at? Alex had a very good game, he made a few mistakes, but took a major beat down. A lot of NFL QB's would have folded after 6 of those sacks.

Originally posted by HearstFan:
Its not a game of absolutes -- it's more art than people would like to admit.

So true.

Marvin, I think your thread is good, a few other points, the 49ers had 9 penalties vs Ravens 3, (2 of them for the 49ers cost them a TD for the 49ers and 3 points for the Ravens, thats a 10 point spread right there) There is one stat that I thought was very interesting, ist the Time of Possession 31 min for the Ravens and 28 min for the 49ers. Why is that interesting is the Ravens had 9 Sacks, with 9 sacks you would never think that the time of possession would be that close with the amount of 3rd downs we converted. The other one is we were horrible on 3rd down and the Raven were 47% convert on 3rd downs so they killed us right there.