Week 12: Thoughts after re-watching the game....

Originally posted by HearstFan:

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by valrod33:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by valrod33:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
3) Edwards:


Edwards said he was trying to set the cornerback up with an inside move and then go outside. Smith said he thought Edwards had committed to the inside and threw the ball there. "He saw one thing and I saw another," Edwards said. Read more: http://blogs.sacbee.com/49ers/archives/2011/11/edwards-says-hes-been-dealing-with-shoulder-sprain-for-three-weeks.html#ixzz1f2e4HZSJ

So Braylon ran the route as designed. Don't know why Alex wouldn't throw it to the outside.

First part. How did you get that from that quote?
Second part. Uh read the quote again he tells you why

Key word "...set the CB up..." That means it was designed to go outside but he was setting the CB up prior to getting into his actual route.

Sounds to me like it was an option route.

Let's say it was an option and Braylon stayed inside. It's still not a good throw. It was still a 9 route. WR's and QB's fully know that a ball should be thrown to the sidelines and WR's are always prepared to fade towards the sideline while the ball is in the air once they have a step on the defender inside or outside. Braylon had the step either way and Alex threw it in the worst spot imaginable.

Alex thinks too much.

LOL...wow. Some peeps just really want to make everything Alexs fault.

Was it a perfect throw? Of course not.

Was Edwards culpable for the INT. YES.

I don't hear anyone calling the throw to Ginn for a TD that was called back a "bad throw". Where was the ball. To the INSIDE. Just like Alex thought Edwards was doing.

Great point about the Ginn throw. So you are saying Alex was 50% of the reason for Ginn catching that ball even though it was a terribly underthrown ball? Keep throwing those short and inside and INT's will happen much more than not. A receiver is not 50% responsible on throws like that. He MAY bail out a QB who is 100% responsible for a terrible throw but the INT was WAAY more Alex's fault than 50%.

Again...I'm not talking about the quality of the throw. I'm saying it wasn't necessarily the WRONG throw. The fact that another WR ran inside on a similar route pretty much discounts your "the throw should ALWAYS be outside" theory.

You guys are comedy acting like you know something should have happened one way or another, or that things in football are absolutes -- a route is "always" thrown one way is comical. If it was always thrown one way, then the defense would know that too!! And ALWAYS be in position to defend it. Comedy.

Why don't you take what has been said and realize as with many situations, in the heat of the moment, 3 people can have read the play 3 different ways! Smith read Edwards as going inside (where his big body in front of the db would be a HUGE advantage), Edwards admits he pressed inside at first to get space on the outside (and that makes sense too), and the head coach -- HEAD COACH -- thought it should have been a back shoulder throw -- which is an alternative way of throwing a 9 route!! So right there you see there are two ways to throw the same darn route.

The reality is that B.E.'s limited playing and practice time is exactly what causes this minor miscues that can have big impacts. These things start to resolve as an offense (all members) play together over time and learn how to play well together and anticipate each other's moves. That goes for the Oline, RBs following their Olines and leads and reads, WR adjusting their routes in sync with the QB and blitzes.

Its not a game of absolutes -- it's more art than people would like to admit. That is why when it looks easy, a la Montana/Walsh, Brady, Manning, etc -- its called artistry.

Uh...I kinda think that was my entire point.

On another note, I'd stay away from saying things like NEVER, or ALWAYS.....they really don't apply to this offense.You should never throw the ball to your LT. They Do. You shouldn't employ the inverted wishbone. They do. The entire offense is unconventional so I'm not buying the "it should ALWAYS be thrown outside so its ALL Smiths fault" line of thinking.

Sorry.

Originally posted by 49erJim:
Marvin, I think your thread is good, a few other points, the 49ers had 9 penalties vs Ravens 3, (2 of them for the 49ers cost them a TD for the 49ers and 3 points for the Ravens, thats a 10 point spread right there) There is one stat that I thought was very interesting, ist the Time of Possession 31 min for the Ravens and 28 min for the 49ers. Why is that interesting is the Ravens had 9 Sacks, with 9 sacks you would never think that the time of possession would be that close with the amount of 3rd downs we converted. The other one is we were horrible on 3rd down and the Raven were 47% convert on 3rd downs so they killed us right there.

Great post 49erJim! Never would have thought time of possession would have been that close by watching the game. We have got to start converting more 3rd downs during the rest of the season if we plan on doing anything in the playoffs. I'm not sure if it is more play-calling or just chemistry with the players. Hopefully everyone gets healthy and on the same page over the next month before the playoffs.

by the way, thanks Marvin for the original post

Donte Whitner cost us the game. If he makes that tackle on 3rd down the Ravens dont go down the field and score. He also had s**tastic coverage on the TD play. He cost us both of our losses

He's been very solid for the majority of the year. He had two - TWO - poor plays against the Ravens, and now people want his head?

Good grief, people.

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Marvin49:
How do you know it was a 9 route? Was the FS ANYWHERE near the ball when Alex threw it inside?

Stop making stuff up.

I didn't say the FS was there. I said QB's are taught to throw that closer to the sidelines because the FS can get there if those are thrown to the inside. It's what they are taught to do for the pass to be a higher percentage pass. Alex keeps throwing those inside and paid for it the second time.

...and I'm saying the FS WASN'T in the middle of the field so it wasn't a terrible choice to throw it inside. QBs also very often UNDERTHROW the ball to allow a tall reciever (Edwards is 6'3") to go up on a jump ball over the DB (DB was 5'9").

Look, I'm not saying it was a perfect throw. I'm just saying that it wasn't necessarily the WRONG throw. All we know is what they have said they were thinking. We DON'T know what the call was.

On another note, I'd stay away from saying things like NEVER, or ALWAYS.....they really don't apply to this offense.

You should never throw the ball to your LT. They Do. You shouldn't employ the inverted wishbone. They do. The entire offense is unconventional so I'm not buying the "it should ALWAYS be thrown outside so its ALL Smiths fault" line of thinking.

Sorry.

Winner.

Also, great analysis in the first post.

Originally posted by Joecool:
It SHOULD always be thrown to the outside. The reason they are taught this is because an inside throw increases the chances for an INT. It's about increasing the odds of a positive play. Since Alex was the one who decreased the odds of the play having a chance to be positive, he was more at fault. To say it was 50% is 100% inaccurate.

A QB should always try to throw with both feet set but one who keeps throwing off his back foot will most likely throw more INTs.

Just because it worked once doesn't mean it wasn't a terrible throw and a low percentage pass.

So, if the QB sees the WR break inside he should throw the ball outside where the DB can pick it? Edwards broke inside, ball goes into the air as Edwards slides to the outside.

As for the Ginn pass...WRs have the advantage because they usually look back for the ball first and can adjust quickly to the ball in flight. The DB has to wait and react to the WR.

Marvin--thanks again for the analysis. I think one reason Walsh gets a pass from the media...actually two reasons...he was very funny at his press conferences and he smoothed relations with the press after he left the 9ers. Harbaugh is pretty funny too now that his team is 9-2. But he doesn't suffer fools well. Murph and Mac just are not very good with him. They try to smooze and he is not a smoozer. Just the facts maam! When they bash him after he leaves...are they assuming he won't hear about this?

Originally posted by captveg:

Donte Whitner cost us the game. If he makes that tackle on 3rd down the Ravens dont go down the field and score. He also had s**tastic coverage on the TD play. He cost us both of our losses

He's been very solid for the majority of the year. He had two - TWO - poor plays against the Ravens, and now people want his head?

Good grief, people.

this, not to mention he had the TD saving tackle on Ray Rice in the 2nd quarter (or was it first?)

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by valrod33:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
3) Edwards:


Edwards said he was trying to set the cornerback up with an inside move and then go outside. Smith said he thought Edwards had committed to the inside and threw the ball there. "He saw one thing and I saw another," Edwards said. Read more: http://blogs.sacbee.com/49ers/archives/2011/11/edwards-says-hes-been-dealing-with-shoulder-sprain-for-three-weeks.html#ixzz1f2e4HZSJ

So Braylon ran the route as designed. Don't know why Alex wouldn't throw it to the outside.

First part. How did you get that from that quote?
Second part. Uh read the quote again he tells you why

Key word "...set the CB up..." That means it was designed to go outside but he was setting the CB up prior to getting into his actual route.

Its a misscommunication issue, does the excuse of Alex and Braylon not having a lot of practice time hold any water with you or not?

Originally posted by Joecool:

Good to hear those things from the Ravens' players, especially Rice, who appeared to be very cocky yet comical in the Sound FX.

I still don't agree with that throw being half Braylon's fault. The WORST spot to throw a ball on a DB that has inside position is inside. That is nearly the most difficult spot for the receiver to make any play on a ball. The DB plays that ball as if he is the receiver. Braylon would have had to make an incredible catch that would have noted as one of the best catches of the year if he made that. It was a bad throw in a spot that allowed the DB to act as a receiver. Those are not even close to 50% on the WR.

Smith said he thought that Edwards was going inside of the db , a clear miscommunication.I think harbaugh said that he thought they were looking to throw a back shoulder pass.(??) anyways Edwards should have tackled the db when he saw where the ball was headed.

Originally posted by Bluefalcon61:
You could have put #6 as number #1 and ended it right there.

Because away teams never win on a short week?

i can't help but think that terrell suggs and a few other ravens respect the niners more than other teams because of our head coach. we didn't see any of the usual arguing and fighting between players.

i hope we bounce back and score a few TDs against st. louis

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
3) Edwards:


Edwards said he was trying to set the cornerback up with an inside move and then go outside. Smith said he thought Edwards had committed to the inside and threw the ball there. "He saw one thing and I saw another," Edwards said. Read more: http://blogs.sacbee.com/49ers/archives/2011/11/edwards-says-hes-been-dealing-with-shoulder-sprain-for-three-weeks.html#ixzz1f2e4HZSJ

So Braylon ran the route as designed. Don't know why Alex wouldn't throw it to the outside.

and if Braylon decides to break it inside and Alex throws it outside we'll just say that Alex doesn't have to make adjustments to the game and that the wide receiver has to be wide open before he can see them.

Originally posted by Shorteous:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
3) Edwards:


Edwards said he was trying to set the cornerback up with an inside move and then go outside. Smith said he thought Edwards had committed to the inside and threw the ball there. "He saw one thing and I saw another," Edwards said. Read more: http://blogs.sacbee.com/49ers/archives/2011/11/edwards-says-hes-been-dealing-with-shoulder-sprain-for-three-weeks.html#ixzz1f2e4HZSJ

So Braylon ran the route as designed. Don't know why Alex wouldn't throw it to the outside.

and if Braylon decides to break it inside and Alex throws it outside we'll just say that Alex doesn't have to make adjustments to the game and that the wide receiver has to be wide open before he can see them.

Pretty much. It's always alex's fault.

Originally posted by Joecool:
What is the rule on chop block? Isn't it that a DL must be engaged and THEN hit below the waste for it to be illegal?

It was a bad call because the DL was hit below the legs first and engaged to no other player on that contact.

I still can't believe they made our offense look average without Ray Lewis. Imagine if we didn't have Willis. Can't say we would do the same.

There are actually two different types of chop blocks, both of them illegal. In one instance, an offensive player will use his shoulder or helmet to block an opponent below the knee either from the side or from behind. A chop block can also be called when this same hit is made while a defender is being blocked by another offensive player and thus can't see the hit coming. The last part is what was called that game. Personally I felt it was bs. 1st gore never blocked below the knees, 2nd Gore had already finished his block before Chilo got there to finish the defender off. I guess technically you could say it happened so fast it was hard to tell, I say this is why certain penalty's should be reviewable.

Originally posted by Marvin49:
Well, obviously this one wasn't as fun. I'll tell you something tho ... it wasn't as bad on second viewing ...

My first reaction after the lose, why bother ... it was quite evident, as to how/why the team lost in B' More.
I then decided to get together with some Finnish 9er Fans Friday, that hadn't seen the game live (due to European start time).
Knowing the outcome, allows one to concentrate on the game, with a different mindset. A lose, is a LOSE ... this one,
just doesn't hurt as others have. Maybe, being 9-2 on the season helps.

Originally posted by HearstFan:
Its not a game of absolutes -- it's more art than people would like to admit. That is why when it looks easy, a la Montana/Walsh, Brady, Manning, etc -- its called artistry.

Marvin49 and Joecool, both make good points with their respective arguments ... I tend to agree with HearstFan on this,
as game related situations, aren't always as B&W as they may seem.

Originally posted by Marvin49:
... 10) Media: This one ... is more about the way the Local Media portrays Jim Harbaugh ... Murph and Mac on KNBR. I typically like those guys, but they REALLY don't get it. Harbaugh is very short with them and doesn't really give him the best answers. He is very often adversarial with them ... and they don't like it. They keep hammering him about it after the interviews are over ... Walsh HATED the media. He CONSTANTLY instilled a "us vs them" attitude in the meeting room ...

Here's where I'd disagree with you ;
Bill Walsh, did NOT hate the Media ... in as much, as he might have hated how Media operates. Hate, is a very strong word --
I never felt, or found BW, to be that way regarding Media types in general. In my professional dealing with him, he was always
respectful and forthcoming (information-wise), with of those who were:

• students of their craft/profession
• were well prepared
• had an understanding and respect of the game
• realised the effort it took for his players to perform at an expected level, week-in & week-out
• didn't seemingly have an agenda, beyond their job description ...

If a reporter, or other Media types did not adhere to/meet the above criteria, he could be most BRUTAL,
during post-game press conferences. In my opinion, he was as demanding of local Media, as he was of his players,
and those in the 49er organisation. Any and all Off-the-Wall remarks, were usually meet with a LOOK that could KILL,
followed by -- What game were you watching, or a similar retort along those lines. Never, did I see him respond to
questions like The Tuna, or go ballistic a 'la Ditka post-game or otherwise.

Lastly, and I have nothing against Murph and Mac ... I just wonder, as to where they obtained their knowledge of and
about BW. The "Us Against The World Mantra", was used to motivate his players ... especially, during prep-week before
a road game. BTW, that tactic seemingly worked for him, as the 49ers, were Road Kings during his tenure. After doing a
Google image search, I can't recall ever seeing Murph or Mac, at any 49er functions during his reign.
Thanx again, for the weekly post ;D