Is David Akers the best kicker we ever had?

Originally posted by candlestick49er:

Originally posted by SonocoNinerFan:
I don't know why this bugs me, but just what was so implausible about Harbaugh's comments on Manning? Follow me now . . . sorry this runs a bit long

Who contacted who?

1. Jim Trotter of SI reported during that week that "The owner of one 2011 playoff team told SI that while his club was not pursuing Manning, it would seriously consider signing him (pending a positive medical report) if he phoned and said he wanted to play for them."
2. Matt Barrows wrote a Manning aftermath article on 3/20 in which he reported specifically that Manning "approached" the 49ers.

http://blog.sfgate.com/49ers/2012/03/16/report-49ers-enter-pursuit-of-peyton-manning/

http://www.sacbee.com/2012/03/20/v-print/4350977/sdfd-fdgf-gfdgf-hghgfggfghjkfhgfjkhgfjkghdfjkgf.html


When looking at the 2011 playoff teams needing a QB it seems pretty obvious that the owner Trotter referenced was Jed York. The delicate dance was due to Condon's involvement. So, Manning called us, and we were going seriously consider signing him if everything checked out. So then what?



What do we actually know?

1. On the Tuesday that was the first day of free agency (when everyone was looking the other way) Harbaugh and Roman flew to Duke and clandestinely observed Manning work-out.
2. The 49ers dispatched their doctors back east to examine Manning.

This part sounds purely like an evaluation to me.


What was different about the 49ers involvement?

1. News of the 49ers involvement didn't surface until three days after they checked him out physically.
2. Of the final three "contenders", Santa Clara was the only place Manning didn't visit.
3. Manning reached out to the 49ers and not vice versa.

The 49ers didn't pursue Manning like b***hes in heat like the Broncos, Titans, Dolphins, Jets, Chiefs, Seahawks and Cardinals, etc. I think a lot of this had to do again with the Smith/Manning/Condon angle. It was in the 49ers interest to keep this quiet as to avoid any possibility of alienating the locker room and Alex (even though when Peyton Manning calls you listen), but the fact remains that Alex has been through many battles with these guys and most of them are intensely loyal. Condon also had an interest in keeping it low profile to avoid the perception among NFL players that he'd actively leverage two clients against the same team.


How does all this tie together?

First, the question of who initiated contact is fundamental. The 49ers received a call and had to take a look . . . they had to. What we don't know is what happened between the time we worked him out and the time Manning made his decision. If the 49ers were going to "seriously consider signing him" you'd have to assume (although it's never been reported) that there were general discussions on the parameters of how everything would work on the football side. The dance very well could have ended or cooled at this point for whatever reason.


What I think happened

We got the call we evaulauted.

We discussed the X's & O's parameters of the possible signing over the next day or two and neither side could get comfortable feeling, whether it was the style of offense, the play calling or even the prospect of Alex Smith still being on the roster. The "pursuit" effectively ended there.

Manning knew before the weekend that he wasn't coming to the 49ers which allowed Condon to finally leak our involvement on Friday in an effort to play Denver and Tennessee against each other over the weekend.

Knowing Manning wasn't coming here, Condon tried to make Baalke squirm over St. Patricks day weekend by sending Alex to Miami for a visit. Trent didn't curr. Bluff failed. Alex re-signs for virtually the same contract we offered him in February.


Bottom Line

The front office evaluated and examined only after being prompted by interest from Manning and the level of actual "pursuit" was very questionable. In the end it's still a bit of a semantics argument and Harbaugh's comments last week were still directed for the benefit of Alex and the team. But when you break it down it's clear that Harbaugh's strident denial of "pursuit" was more justified than anyone slamming him for lying is willing to concede.

Great post!

this +1

Originally posted by candlestick49er:
Once again, you're going off pure assumption and closing the door based on those assumptions. Harbaugh & Baalke may have had the same assumptions as you, but the difference is that they DID NOT close the door based on those guesses. They still considered the scenario and left the door open throughout the entire process.

You insist that Peyton wouldn't be cool with competition or signing a low-risk/high-reward deal. But consider this...nobody (except Peyton himself) knew exactly how interested he was in playing for the Niners. Prior to his workout with Baalke/Harbaugh, nobody knows how much he valued the opportunity to win another championship (possibly multiple championships). At this point in his career, maybe he would've been willing to compete for the job or take an incentive-based deal just to play for a SB contender in its prime. Nobody knew what Peyton was willing to do or sacrifice for a shot at being involved in a potential dynasty. The only way to know this information would be through evaluation and conversations with the parties involved.

Also, you said "I don't agree with the notion that hey Peyton called us maybe he's okay with playing for free and training Kaepernick while Smith starts". Well of course Peyton wasn't gonna be brought in just to be a mentor. He would either be the starting QB (without Smith on the roster) or compete to be the starter (with Smith on the roster).

You're right but even that's misleading because they never tell the truth in these situations. They have the obligation to protect their franchise and their players not Peyton Manning.

I think you're severely overrating the gull of Balke and Harbaugh. You just don't walk up to Peyton Manning and offer him an insulting situation just because he expressed interest in joining the team. It is a reported fact that Peyton Manning asked us if he had interest in him providing we were looking for a qb. The provided we were looking for a qb was part of the reported story so don't ignore it. There is no hey I'm cool with playing for free and competing with Alex strings attached to it. Harbaugh and Balke knew that going in.

Maybe you're right though maybe Harbaugh and Balke had nothing better to do but to insult one of the greatest qbs ever to play the game. Since we don't know what the conversation was about maybe they asked him to play some special teams too. You can't prove otherwise. It's an assumption that Manning wouldn't be cool with playing special teams. How do we know unless we ask him?

Your assumptions have to be realistic. When Peyton Manning is getting 90 million offers (reported fact) you throwing up a pennies on the dollar offer and a chance to compete for the starting job is not worth anybody's time regardless if Peyton Manning called you up first. The cap room was not even there to sign both Alex and Manning unless you honestly believe Balke had the gull to ask Peyton to sign for Josh Johnson money. The most plausible scenario is we were gaging Peyton's interest in us. Would he take less to go to a team that's Super Bowl ready. I think we both agree on that part just not on the ridiculous parts. Let's not forget Alex Smith was a free agent too. He had no obligation to accept the fact that he had to compete with Manning. If Peyton signed with us the odds of him taking that Miami job go up by somewhere around 100%.

Forgive me for not believing in fairy tales though.

Originally posted by candlestick49er:
I disagree. Baalke's history shows that he has a "take it or leave it" approach when negotiating.

1. When Baalke gave Harbaugh an offer to be our HC, he stuck to his guns. He didn't change the salary amount despite Miami offering significantly more. Baalke didn't care to compete with other offers, he instead let Harbaugh explore the other options. This pretty much says if you wanna be here then you'll take my offer...if not, then you can go elsewhere. They didn't meet in the middle, Harbaugh took what Baalke offered.
2. When Gore held out for a Deangelo Williams type deal, Baalke stayed put once again. He ended up signing for significantly less than what he was seeking. Gore is a well respected player on this team and Baalke didn't budge for him. They didn't meet in the middle, Gore took what Baalke offered.
3. Dashon Goldson threatened to leave for free agency when the Niners didn't give him the contract he wanted. Again, Baalke didn't budge. He let Goldson hit the market despite the hole it created at FS. Goldson eventually came back, by taking what Baalke offered...not meeting in the middle.
4. Alex Smith wanted a more secure long-term contract. Instead, Baalke put an offer on the table and gave him the choice to take it or leave it. The departure of Alex (a well liked and respected teammate) would have created a "?" at the QB position, but Baalke still didn't budge. They didn't meet in the middle, Alex took what Baalke offered.

Do you honestly believe Baalke would try to meet a free agent in the middle even though he was unwilling to do that with significant members of his own team?

Miami offered Alex the same deal we did. 3 years 20 mil. The difference between the scenarios you threw out and this one is simple. The market backed him up every single time. In this case you're throwing up a scenario where Peyton Manning's value is 90 million but Harbaugh and Balke are offering pennies.

That's not take it or leave it. That's just being insulting and no I don't think Harbaugh and Balke go to the legends and offer them insulting situations.

Originally posted by tjd808185:
Yeah and the market backed him up every single time. In this case you're throwing up a scenario where Peyton Manning's value is 90 million but Harbaugh and Balke are offering pennies.

That's not take it or leave it. That's just being insulting and no I don't think Harbaugh and Balke go to the legends and offer them insulting situations.

You are still trying way too hard when none of us really know enough about what was actually said and done.... which can only suggest that you have an unnatural bias. Fans of a team should never go so far out of their way to dump on a situation like this. It's just... it's just not good.

Originally posted by oldman9er:
You are still trying way too hard when none of us really know enough about what was actually said and done.... which can only suggest that you have an unnatural bias. Fans of a team should never go so far out of their way to dump on a situation like this. It's just... it's just not good.

I haven't dumped on Alex once so think what you want. The worse thing I've said is he's a good qb and our team hasn't fully invested into him.

I have no doubt in my mind that the organization feels strongly about Smith and his ability to win. That doesn't mean this isn't a lie though.

Originally posted by tjd808185:
Miami offered Alex the same deal we did. 3 years 20 mil. The difference between the scenarios you threw out and this one is simple. The market backed him up every single time. In this case you're throwing up a scenario where Peyton Manning's value is 90 million but Harbaugh and Balke are offering pennies.

That's not take it or leave it. That's just being insulting and no I don't think Harbaugh and Balke go to the legends and offer them insulting situations.

Was the Miami offer published? Don't think so, but it may have been guessed at by friendly media folks...just as the SF offer was guessed by local media. Unless you know the various elements of an offer it's hard to evaluate. Some contracts have bonuses for easy to reach goals, while others have more difficult goals, or no incentives at all. I think Crabtree has an incentive if he shows up to a certain number of practices, etc.

An offer to Manning was likely never formulated as the 9ers heard the numbers being thrown around by other teams and realized that Manning would have to really want SF in order to play for what they would offer---pure conjecture on my part. Can you really see Baalke offering Manning a 90 million dollar contract? He's not that dumb.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Was the Miami offer published? Don't think so, but it may have been guessed at by friendly media folks...just as the SF offer was guessed by local media. Unless you know the various elements of an offer it's hard to evaluate. Some contracts have bonuses for easy to reach goals, while others have more difficult goals, or no incentives at all. I think Crabtree has an incentive if he shows up to a certain number of practices, etc.

An offer to Manning was likely never formulated as the 9ers heard the numbers being thrown around by other teams and realized that Manning would have to really want SF in order to play for what they would offer---pure conjecture on my part. Can you really see Baalke offering Manning a 90 million dollar contract? He's not that dumb.

Reports were there were no significant financial benefits for Alex in Miami. The offer we gave him was pretty much his market value give or take a little and that was my only point there.

I agree with your last statement though. I don't think we were serious contenders at any point during the process. The only contention I'm making is that we weren't insulting Manning with a qb competition and playing for 15 bucks an hour. I think we looked into him because he is Peyton Manning realized it was a square peg in a round hole and both sides moved on. Perhaps Condom tried to use the interest to bump up his clients asking prices.

Originally posted by tjd808185:
Perhaps Condom tried to use the interest to bump up his clients asking prices.

bingo! Like I said earlier... imagine being Tennessee or Denver and suddenly hearing that Harbaugh and the SB contender Niners were in the hunt? Bet that will tighten their sphincters and make them raise their offer in both money and team control, eh?

It's good for an organization to have a big agent owe them one.

Originally posted by oldman9er:
bingo! Like I said earlier... imagine being Tennessee or Denver and suddenly hearing that Harbaugh and the SB contender Niners were in the hunt? Bet that will tighten their sphincters and make them raise their offer in both money and team control, eh?

It's good for an organization to have a big agent owe them one.

Wouldn't go that far. The more likely scenario is Condon playing everyone.

He probally knew we were only doing our due dillengence but if you can use that to try to bump up 2 contracts why not.

Come on guys. First, no matter how discrete our dealings with Manning were I am sure the front office knew they would become public knowledge. 49er wiping boy Alex Smith finally has a break out year and it is sure his confidence and support of his teammates is at an all time high. Going after Manning is going to hurt Smith no matter how mentally tough he is, anyone knows that. It only makes sense the 49ers pursued Manning thinking they had high chances of getting him, they weren't just kicking the tires.

Originally posted by BobS:
Going after Manning is going to hurt Smith no matter how mentally tough he is, anyone knows that. It only makes sense the 49ers pursued Manning thinking they had high chances of getting him, they weren't just kicking the tires.

Disagree with these two sentences. Alex is tougher than that, and has only one goal in mind... to win games and bring the Niners more SB trophies. He's not gonna let up or be distracted with such things.

The Niners got a call... took a brief look, and that allowed Manning to maximize his contract and control. Simple as that for me, and while it is an unproven theory, it has just as much chance of being accurate as anything else.

i think that we wanted peyton only after alex hadn't signed. we checked out peyton and thought we would give him a shot but we would run harbaugh's offense at paraag's price. peyton went for the money. i say this because we tend to set a value for a player then they take it or leave it. there is negotiation but we don't overpay too far beyond what paraag has calculated. when peyton backed out, we finished the deal on the table with alex. as a result we have continuity and had the cap space to finish our offseason making the team deeper and better. harbaugh is taking umbrage with the prevailing thought that we were throwing ourselves at peyton when in fact it probably was a combination of a HOF qb calling a super bowl contender and that contender calling a HOF qb in a mutual interest of winning the big game. we were both interested equally until peyton went for the money. harbaugh probably then would have went manning smith and kaepernick at qb if possible. so u can call it a lie but imma take coach at his word as slick as he was trying to be in his interpretation of things and how it went down. he was cleaning up behind alex and really could care less but other than laying quiet he decided to put his two cents in

Originally posted by BobS:
Come on guys. First, no matter how discrete our dealings with Manning were I am sure the front office knew they would become public knowledge. 49er wiping boy Alex Smith finally has a break out year and it is sure his confidence and support of his teammates is at an all time high. Going after Manning is going to hurt Smith no matter how mentally tough he is, anyone knows that. It only makes sense the 49ers pursued Manning thinking they had high chances of getting him, they weren't just kicking the tires.

It appears that they tried to be discrete but I would agree they had to figure it would leak out. They had Smith over a barrel as he has not convinced the NFL of his worth, so why not kick the tires on Manning. Seems unlikely that Baalke would offer Manning a contract that would require cutting important players though. Some think 90 million would fit somehow without doing a lot of manipulation, but Baalke (Marathe?) has played a great game of balancing the budget...signing PM would have turned it on its head.

If PM would have agreed to run Harbaugh's offense and structuring his contract to help the team they would have been very interested--why not? But my doubt stems from Manning's need for ownership of the offense as much as from the dollar issue.

Harbaugh believes in competition and he was traded and bounced around, so he could easily say to Smith--"No big deal, it's business and I still love you." I can see him saying this and Smith understanding it because he is one of the most mature and sensible QBs in the league.

I like tjd's comment 2 pages back: "It's water under the bridge" . Amen.

We never wanted Peyton because Alex is better than Peyton.