Forty Niners New Strategy?

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by 5280High:

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by glorydayz:
Now when I look at JH's background and what he has been able to do at Stanford & San Diego you can see that he never really focused on (superstar) Athelete's meaning the fastest or the strongest players.

So now he wants to make sure that he is adding "FOOTBALL PLAYERS" and not just superstar fill-in's.

Ted Ginn would probably be the best athlete on the team, however we all know he is not the best football player on the team.

Football player = smart (do as you are coached/play within the system), tough, hungry guys that get it done!

Athlete = Speed, strength, physical ability is off the charts, more ME focused.

Am I right here?

I like this if this is the plan, Because I know he didn't have the best athletes at Stanford or San Diego.

Your thoughts?

I really hate analogies like this. The best football players are usually the best athletes. Having leadership, good "character" and a clean background are bonuses, they do not make you a good football player whatsoever. The term "football player" is slowly replacing "blue collar". What does this mean? Does anyone honestly believe that Justin Smith or Heinz Ward is not an amazing athlete? Does anyone really believe that T.O. is not a good "football player"? Its a bunch of bulls**t.

Why does a good athlete have to be more ME focused as you say? How does that assumption make any sense?

I don't have a bunch of time to get into it but Usaine Bolt is probably the best athlete in the world physically, however I doubt that he would make a good football player. Meanwhile my 11 year old could probably out run or jump Tom Brady yet he is considered the best Football Player.

Just for the record T.O, & Heinz Ward are trully what a football player is! Attitude and all, T.O has it all!

Justin Smith is a hell of a football player, but an athlete... Come on now!

Tom Brady is athletic. Having a deadly accurate arm is a part of athletics. He is also not the most mobile QB but he isn't Dan Marino either.

Usain Bolt is literally not a football player, so I don't see how that example proves anything.

Your telling me Justin Smith, a 6-5 300 pound man who can run a 4.8 and play non stop all game is not a good athlete? He was a top 5 pick when he was drafted. Show me a top 5 draft pick that does not have a dominant athletic trait and I will shut up.

Justin Smith is a football player!

Ted Ginn is an athlete, there is a huge difference.

So to you speed = athleticism. That is not at all what athleticism is.

Your definition of "football player" is stupid to be quite frank. They are both football players and both phenomenal athletes. Justin Smith is just better at what he does than Ted Ginn.

If you've ever known any person that made it into a pro sport you would realize that all of these guys are phenomenal athletes or they never would have sniffed a pro roster made it. You can't be 300 pounds and expending all of your energy for 60 minutes without being an amazing athlete.

I played in the league, so I know what it takes. The mental toll is much tougher than the physical, there is a reason why they use terms like o-line & skill positions.

I know the fat guy wants to be an athlete but when you look at the term athlete it has always been associated with track & field. You needed to be in a room with Bill Walsh, coach would have showed you the difference in perception vs reality.

Football is the ultimate team sport, the only sport where a bunch unathletic guys can work together to stop the superstar in his tracks! Football is a state of mind, it's a committment!

How can you say J. Smith isnt an amazing athlete? Track and Field doesn't = the best athletes in the world unless you're talking like decathlon or triathlons which still relies on endurance more than athleticism though both are necessary.

There's plenty of speed demons that simply suck at everything else athletically. Athleticism has more to do with body control than speed.

Exactly, and alot of football players would look silly playing other sports! Yet they are great at what they do.

Almost every pro football player would look better than most people playing a different sport. I bet Justin Smith would whoop you in any sport you played.

So you think all football players would look good on a track team or on a baseball or basketball team?

Originally posted by chico49erfan:
Yup. You nailed it, dude. f**k the good players!

This is what I thought of when reading this.

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by 5280High:

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by glorydayz:
Now when I look at JH's background and what he has been able to do at Stanford & San Diego you can see that he never really focused on (superstar) Athelete's meaning the fastest or the strongest players.

So now he wants to make sure that he is adding "FOOTBALL PLAYERS" and not just superstar fill-in's.

Ted Ginn would probably be the best athlete on the team, however we all know he is not the best football player on the team.

Football player = smart (do as you are coached/play within the system), tough, hungry guys that get it done!

Athlete = Speed, strength, physical ability is off the charts, more ME focused.

Am I right here?

I like this if this is the plan, Because I know he didn't have the best athletes at Stanford or San Diego.

Your thoughts?

I really hate analogies like this. The best football players are usually the best athletes. Having leadership, good "character" and a clean background are bonuses, they do not make you a good football player whatsoever. The term "football player" is slowly replacing "blue collar". What does this mean? Does anyone honestly believe that Justin Smith or Heinz Ward is not an amazing athlete? Does anyone really believe that T.O. is not a good "football player"? Its a bunch of bulls**t.

Why does a good athlete have to be more ME focused as you say? How does that assumption make any sense?

I don't have a bunch of time to get into it but Usaine Bolt is probably the best athlete in the world physically, however I doubt that he would make a good football player. Meanwhile my 11 year old could probably out run or jump Tom Brady yet he is considered the best Football Player.

Just for the record T.O, & Heinz Ward are trully what a football player is! Attitude and all, T.O has it all!

Justin Smith is a hell of a football player, but an athlete... Come on now!

Tom Brady is athletic. Having a deadly accurate arm is a part of athletics. He is also not the most mobile QB but he isn't Dan Marino either.

Usain Bolt is literally not a football player, so I don't see how that example proves anything.

Your telling me Justin Smith, a 6-5 300 pound man who can run a 4.8 and play non stop all game is not a good athlete? He was a top 5 pick when he was drafted. Show me a top 5 draft pick that does not have a dominant athletic trait and I will shut up.

Justin Smith is a football player!

Ted Ginn is an athlete, there is a huge difference.

So to you speed = athleticism. That is not at all what athleticism is.

Your definition of "football player" is stupid to be quite frank. They are both football players and both phenomenal athletes. Justin Smith is just better at what he does than Ted Ginn.

If you've ever known any person that made it into a pro sport you would realize that all of these guys are phenomenal athletes or they never would have sniffed a pro roster made it. You can't be 300 pounds and expending all of your energy for 60 minutes without being an amazing athlete.

I played in the league, so I know what it takes. The mental toll is much tougher than the physical, there is a reason why they use terms like o-line & skill positions.

I know the fat guy wants to be an athlete but when you look at the term athlete it has always been associated with track & field. You needed to be in a room with Bill Walsh, coach would have showed you the difference in perception vs reality.

Football is the ultimate team sport, the only sport where a bunch unathletic guys can work together to stop the superstar in his tracks! Football is a state of mind, it's a committment!

How can you say J. Smith isnt an amazing athlete? Track and Field doesn't = the best athletes in the world unless you're talking like decathlon or triathlons which still relies on endurance more than athleticism though both are necessary.

There's plenty of speed demons that simply suck at everything else athletically. Athleticism has more to do with body control than speed.

Exactly, and alot of football players would look silly playing other sports! Yet they are great at what they do.

Almost every pro football player would look better than most people playing a different sport. I bet Justin Smith would whoop you in any sport you played.

I agree and some wouldn't,

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by 5280High:

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by glorydayz:
Now when I look at JH's background and what he has been able to do at Stanford & San Diego you can see that he never really focused on (superstar) Athelete's meaning the fastest or the strongest players.

So now he wants to make sure that he is adding "FOOTBALL PLAYERS" and not just superstar fill-in's.

Ted Ginn would probably be the best athlete on the team, however we all know he is not the best football player on the team.

Football player = smart (do as you are coached/play within the system), tough, hungry guys that get it done!

Athlete = Speed, strength, physical ability is off the charts, more ME focused.

Am I right here?

I like this if this is the plan, Because I know he didn't have the best athletes at Stanford or San Diego.

Your thoughts?

I really hate analogies like this. The best football players are usually the best athletes. Having leadership, good "character" and a clean background are bonuses, they do not make you a good football player whatsoever. The term "football player" is slowly replacing "blue collar". What does this mean? Does anyone honestly believe that Justin Smith or Heinz Ward is not an amazing athlete? Does anyone really believe that T.O. is not a good "football player"? Its a bunch of bulls**t.

Why does a good athlete have to be more ME focused as you say? How does that assumption make any sense?

I don't have a bunch of time to get into it but Usaine Bolt is probably the best athlete in the world physically, however I doubt that he would make a good football player. Meanwhile my 11 year old could probably out run or jump Tom Brady yet he is considered the best Football Player.

Just for the record T.O, & Heinz Ward are trully what a football player is! Attitude and all, T.O has it all!

Justin Smith is a hell of a football player, but an athlete... Come on now!

Tom Brady is athletic. Having a deadly accurate arm is a part of athletics. He is also not the most mobile QB but he isn't Dan Marino either.

Usain Bolt is literally not a football player, so I don't see how that example proves anything.

Your telling me Justin Smith, a 6-5 300 pound man who can run a 4.8 and play non stop all game is not a good athlete? He was a top 5 pick when he was drafted. Show me a top 5 draft pick that does not have a dominant athletic trait and I will shut up.

Justin Smith is a football player!

Ted Ginn is an athlete, there is a huge difference.

So to you speed = athleticism. That is not at all what athleticism is.

Your definition of "football player" is stupid to be quite frank. They are both football players and both phenomenal athletes. Justin Smith is just better at what he does than Ted Ginn.

If you've ever known any person that made it into a pro sport you would realize that all of these guys are phenomenal athletes or they never would have sniffed a pro roster made it. You can't be 300 pounds and expending all of your energy for 60 minutes without being an amazing athlete.

I played in the league, so I know what it takes. The mental toll is much tougher than the physical, there is a reason why they use terms like o-line & skill positions.

I know the fat guy wants to be an athlete but when you look at the term athlete it has always been associated with track & field. You needed to be in a room with Bill Walsh, coach would have showed you the difference in perception vs reality.

Football is the ultimate team sport, the only sport where a bunch unathletic guys can work together to stop the superstar in his tracks! Football is a state of mind, it's a committment!

How can you say J. Smith isnt an amazing athlete? Track and Field doesn't = the best athletes in the world unless you're talking like decathlon or triathlons which still relies on endurance more than athleticism though both are necessary.

There's plenty of speed demons that simply suck at everything else athletically. Athleticism has more to do with body control than speed.

Exactly, and alot of football players would look silly playing other sports! Yet they are great at what they do.

Almost every pro football player would look better than most people playing a different sport. I bet Justin Smith would whoop you in any sport you played.

So you think all football players would look good on a track team or on a baseball or basketball team?

%99 would look a lot better than you or me doing the same thing.

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by 5280High:

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by glorydayz:
Now when I look at JH's background and what he has been able to do at Stanford & San Diego you can see that he never really focused on (superstar) Athelete's meaning the fastest or the strongest players.

So now he wants to make sure that he is adding "FOOTBALL PLAYERS" and not just superstar fill-in's.

Ted Ginn would probably be the best athlete on the team, however we all know he is not the best football player on the team.

Football player = smart (do as you are coached/play within the system), tough, hungry guys that get it done!

Athlete = Speed, strength, physical ability is off the charts, more ME focused.

Am I right here?

I like this if this is the plan, Because I know he didn't have the best athletes at Stanford or San Diego.

Your thoughts?

I really hate analogies like this. The best football players are usually the best athletes. Having leadership, good "character" and a clean background are bonuses, they do not make you a good football player whatsoever. The term "football player" is slowly replacing "blue collar". What does this mean? Does anyone honestly believe that Justin Smith or Heinz Ward is not an amazing athlete? Does anyone really believe that T.O. is not a good "football player"? Its a bunch of bulls**t.

Why does a good athlete have to be more ME focused as you say? How does that assumption make any sense?

I don't have a bunch of time to get into it but Usaine Bolt is probably the best athlete in the world physically, however I doubt that he would make a good football player. Meanwhile my 11 year old could probably out run or jump Tom Brady yet he is considered the best Football Player.

Just for the record T.O, & Heinz Ward are trully what a football player is! Attitude and all, T.O has it all!

Justin Smith is a hell of a football player, but an athlete... Come on now!

Tom Brady is athletic. Having a deadly accurate arm is a part of athletics. He is also not the most mobile QB but he isn't Dan Marino either.

Usain Bolt is literally not a football player, so I don't see how that example proves anything.

Your telling me Justin Smith, a 6-5 300 pound man who can run a 4.8 and play non stop all game is not a good athlete? He was a top 5 pick when he was drafted. Show me a top 5 draft pick that does not have a dominant athletic trait and I will shut up.

Justin Smith is a football player!

Ted Ginn is an athlete, there is a huge difference.

So to you speed = athleticism. That is not at all what athleticism is.

Your definition of "football player" is stupid to be quite frank. They are both football players and both phenomenal athletes. Justin Smith is just better at what he does than Ted Ginn.

If you've ever known any person that made it into a pro sport you would realize that all of these guys are phenomenal athletes or they never would have sniffed a pro roster made it. You can't be 300 pounds and expending all of your energy for 60 minutes without being an amazing athlete.

I played in the league, so I know what it takes. The mental toll is much tougher than the physical, there is a reason why they use terms like o-line & skill positions.

I know the fat guy wants to be an athlete but when you look at the term athlete it has always been associated with track & field. You needed to be in a room with Bill Walsh, coach would have showed you the difference in perception vs reality.

Football is the ultimate team sport, the only sport where a bunch unathletic guys can work together to stop the superstar in his tracks! Football is a state of mind, it's a committment!

How can you say J. Smith isnt an amazing athlete? Track and Field doesn't = the best athletes in the world unless you're talking like decathlon or triathlons which still relies on endurance more than athleticism though both are necessary.

There's plenty of speed demons that simply suck at everything else athletically. Athleticism has more to do with body control than speed.

I understand now. Being an "athlete" means you are a loud black man. Being a "football player" means you are any white man or an extremely humble black man.

Where did that come from? Football breaks all color barriers, why would you throw race in this conversation? Tebow is a loud athlete too, does this make him any less white? no race cards please.

Bulls**t. You just proved my point. Tebow is never referred to as an "athlete" which is all he is. Instead, people call him a "football player" or a "blue collar guy". I will not leave any race card out of it because that is all this really is.

Okay well don't lump me in with those poeple, because I identified him as an athlete. Peyton Manning & Tom Brady are not to athletic, they are just great QB's.

On the other hand Vick is a best of both world's guy Athlete + Football player.

Peyton Manning and Tom Brady ARE ATHLETIC. Athleticism is kinetic awareness. Not speed. Get it?

I am going to lump you in because you demonstrated the way you think of these guys. You call out Deion Sanders, one of the most successful "Football players" ever and say JH would never want him because of what? Because you don't like his persona? No one ever called Deion Sanders a distraction in his entire career. Everyone who has played with him and against him has praised him as a teammate, including the great Jerry Rice.

Maybe you should rethink how you define "Football player" if you don't want to be lumped in with the majority of fans, who thinks that a black player with confidence is a diva and has to kiss the ass of the owners, media and fans to be considered worthy to watch.

You are the one that started talking about black players being Diva's. I simply stated that a team of football players would beat the crap out of a team of athlete's any day! Take it how you want it, I believe this...

I was just the first person to go ahead and say the word black. Your whole perspective on what a good pro is wreaks of racial bias whether it is subconscious or deliberate.

So please explain why Jim Harbaugh wouldn't want Dieon Sanders on one of his teams again.

[ Edited by RichmondPete on Jul 28, 2011 at 16:44:24 ]

GloryDayz, you are 100% spot on in your assessment. You are watching a coaches kid do what his dad did for decades (I played against his Dad's team). Not unlike Sir Bill Walsh, it's all about the "system" and the people (notice I did not use the word "players"). Jim will motivate, joke, ask about family and coach the hell out of this team, and the team will motivate Jim.

It's been a long, hard road for fans & players alike but this team is destined to return to greatness because of the ownership, community and staff. Big fans of the front office and coaching staff for working together to execute their plan.

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by 49erThrowback:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:
I really hate analogies like this. The best football players are usually the best athletes. Having leadership, good "character" and a clean background are bonuses, they do not make you a good football player whatsoever.

Why does a good athlete have to be more ME focused as you say? How does that assumption make any sense?

That's not what this is about. It's whether teamwork and good coaching can trump superior athleticism. Often it does.

Hell, the first Niners championship was won against an opponent that was probably athletically superior, and favored to win the game. Ditto Jets vs. Baltimore a few years before. Good teamwork and the right game plan can neutralize a team of athletes who play for themselves and not as a team.

Thats not at all what he said. He said good athletes are typically more ME centric. That good athletes are not typically "good football players". Guess what? everyone in the NFL is a world class athlete, that is not in question. No one on earth would argue that anything can replace efficient teamwork in football.

The point of the thread was to relate athleticism to character. They have absolutely no correlation. Teams absolutely NEED athletes to win. The 81 niners are no exception. A freakishly athletic secondary comprised of 3 rookies took them from a loser to a winner in 1 offseason.

Not talking about character, talking about the ability to play within a scheme and be coachable. It's one thing to run a 4.2 in a straight line, another to run a 4.2 in between the tackles with Ray Lewis on the other side. I'm talking about hunger!

The superstars goal is to get to the NFL and make millions, the gritty football players goal is to be better today than he was yesterday! His goal is to honor the game, hoping to be mentioned with the best someday instead of expecting to be mentioned with the best, or wonering why he isn't being mentioned with the best!

For the record, not all NFL players are world class athletes. Some are just dahm good football players!

For the record, if you are a starter in the NFL you are a world class athlete. You don't have to be fast to be an athlete.

"Athletes are more ME focused". That is relating athleticism to character no matter how you want to spin it.

You speak of athleticism as if it takes away from hunger, coachability, humbleness, and leadership. That is the problem I have.

Vernon Davis does not at all look natural catching the ball, he definitely isn't the smartest tool in the shed. He dominates with athleticism

Jerry Rice is the best of both worlds, he was an athlete that could play some football. What has VD dominated to this point?

Race car drivers are described as athletes as well right? I am in no way saying that ALL GREAT/GOOD athletes are ME focused. Look at Welker, Hienz Ward, Marvin Harrison I could go on & on. However a nice percentage R. Moss, Jackson (eagles), Primetime... I could go on & on, I doubt if JH wants to deal with that type of athlete!

Lol, WOW. you don't think a guy like Primetime would be welcomed by any coach on any team at any time? I am completely done. You don't need to get a hard on for the personality of every "football player" that you root for.

How many teams did Primetime play for when he was in his prime? How many teams let him walk in his prime?

Athletes serve a purpose in football, but it is never a good idea to build your team around the super star, build around football players and add a super star athlete ala prime time in SF (last super bowl) when you find that you are missing that piece.

Took multiple teams over the top into the superbowl. Please stop embarrassing yourself. There is a reason why everyone in the hall of fame is there.

Prime time has two rings from teams that were on top when he got there.
Took multiple teams to the superbowl, how mant times did he go to the superbowl with the Falcons, redskins, & ravens?

WTF are you arguing? That Sanders wasn't a good athlete or football player? Either way you are embarrassing yourself. Niners couldn't win s**t in the 90s before sanders arrived or after he left.

Sanders was a great athlete! He was great at what he was asked to do, but he struggled with the contact side of football. He was a very smart player that could play within a system and compete with the best of them. He was similar to jerry rice in that he had the best of both worlds and because of that he put his stamp on the game. However he was bounced around in his prime because of his "ME" attitude similar to T.O. some coaches can't handle the superstar yet they are still successful coaches.

Deion Sanders wasn't bounced around anywhere. Teams wanted him whether or not he had an attitude. Atlanta wanted to re-sign Sanders but HE chose to come to the 49ers for an opportunity to win a Super Bowl. The 49ers wanted to re-sign him but Dallas offered him what was a boat load of cash at the time. Dallas cut him much later because they stunk, he was old and often injured, and there was no longer a reason for them to pay him the amount he was set to earn. Washington threw a fat contract at an old Prime Time and he retired against their will.

He wasn't bounced around by anyone and especially not because of his attitude. He left on his own terms in every situation except in Dallas, where it was because of age and cap concerns.

[ Edited by LAFortyNinerfan on Jul 28, 2011 at 16:42:24 ]

Originally posted by SJniner7:
I could see that happening. Take the Bellichick approach. They never get a ton of big names, but always manage to find solid players.

When you have a committed owner, hall of fame coach and quarterback, plus being a Super Bowl contender for the last decade, you can attract free agent talent with out over paying. That gives a team like the Patriots a big edge. The 49ers used to be that team. No one is coming to San Francisco unless they are willing to pay more than everyone else.

I don't understand the blind faith in Harbaugh, he hasn't done anything yet on the pro level. Just because he won at Stanford, doesn't make him the next Bill Walsh. The York regime hasn't done anything yet to instill confidence in them.

Originally posted by BobS:

Originally posted by SJniner7:
I could see that happening. Take the Bellichick approach. They never get a ton of big names, but always manage to find solid players.

When you have a committed owner, hall of fame coach and quarterback, plus being a Super Bowl contender for the last decade, you can attract free agent talent with out over paying. That gives a team like the Patriots a big edge. The 49ers used to be that team. No one is coming to San Francisco unless they are willing to pay more than everyone else.

I don't understand the blind faith in Harbaugh, he hasn't done anything yet on the pro level. Just because he won at Stanford, doesn't make him the next Bill Walsh. The York regime hasn't done anything yet to instill confidence in them.

Come on how hard could it be when you don't have to go out and find any good athletes to win a superbowl?

Originally posted by BobS:

Originally posted by SJniner7:
I could see that happening. Take the Bellichick approach. They never get a ton of big names, but always manage to find solid players.

When you have a committed owner, hall of fame coach and quarterback, plus being a Super Bowl contender for the last decade, you can attract free agent talent with out over paying. That gives a team like the Patriots a big edge. The 49ers used to be that team. No one is coming to San Francisco unless they are willing to pay more than everyone else.

I don't understand the blind faith in Harbaugh, he hasn't done anything yet on the pro level. Just because he won at Stanford, doesn't make him the next Bill Walsh. The York regime hasn't done anything yet to instill confidence in them.

So, carrying this to at least one logical conclusion, since only about 4-5 teams can compete for decent players, all the other ones may as well close up shop, or at least they and their fans should just shut up and bend over?

Originally posted by SJniner7:
I could see that happening. Take the Bellichick approach. They never get a ton of big names, but always manage to find solid players.

moss ochocinco haynesworth....adalius thomas

Crabtree........He gone!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by SnakePlissken:

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by 5280High:
VD is the best athlete on the team...

VD is a FOOTBALL PLAYER!

HE'S BOTH!!!

VD the hybrid!

i think VD and P Willie disagree with your assessment. VD is one of, if not the best athlete in the entire NFL and hes a baller

Dichotomies like this are the best way to start an argument but the worst way to understand anything.



One of many issues I have: "Do as you are coached" and "Play within the system" are two orders many of our best "football players" had a hard time obeying last year, because they were better than the coaching.