Keep Manny Lawson or part ways?

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by cwilson830:

Originally posted by btthepunk:

Originally posted by BETTERDAYZ9ERS:
What I keep hearing is Manny on one side and Aldon on the other.

Odd man out should be Parys. I personally like Ahmad Brooks better than Parys

I think everyone does.

I really hope we keep Lawson, I doubt it though. I'll be rooting for him to breakout somewhere else, as long as its not Dallas.
I put him in the mismanaged group with Alex and Jason Hill.

How do you think he should have been managed differently? He's been given lots of opportunities to develop into a good pass rusher.

The problem is that the 49ers looked at his college production and thought they saw a pass rusher.

The truth is, because he was playing opposite Mario Williams, who always drew an extra blocker, Manny was able to get pressure on the QB. It wasn't that Lawson was such an awesome one-on-one pass rusher.

So what the 49ers did get was a very good all-round OLB who could put pressure on the QB on occasion but that was not his greatest strength. It wasn't a lack of time to develop, it was just a complete misjudgment by the 49ers in the draft.

The question now is; do you let a very good OLB walk away with nothing in return, or do you assume Aldon Smith will become a Mario Williams for Lawson and he will become even more valuable in the future?

I think this is a very good point and I agree!

But to cover all the bases and play Devil's advocate here, you could say that Aldon Smith won't develop if teams never need to worry about Lawson. They will just shift blocking schemes to his side (like they do already for Smith/Haralson) and Manny will continue to be blocked out one-on-one and Aldon will never get a chance to develop at the WILL.

There has to be at least a serious threat there and Manny is NOT a guy teams even consider blocking out with more than a RB, FB, TE or OT (I've even seen WR's block him out). And Mario Williams was a man among boys in college...nobody could block him...I would never expect that same sort of production from a rookie (Aldon Smith) in the NFL in order for Manny to be more effective on the other side. This, IMHO, is why we NEED at least a threat at the SAM position "or" Fangio will need to work around Manny and scheme more inside blitzes (or stunts from the outside-in).

In Manny's interview, he talks about the entire LB crew and that they are getting older and "somebody leaving." Well, of all the guys he mentioned, all are signed long-term WITH the 49ers...so, my best bet is HE is the one leaving. Then when you consider the other team FA's we need to sign, FA gaps we need to fill with potentially Franklin leaving, CB issues, rookie salaries, etc. you can see why MM/MB gave Manny practically a zero % chance of returning. And the thing fans on this board forget is that Manny has say in this as well - he may have wanted to leave for over a year now on his own. It's a hard business, no doubt!

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by 49ersNoKaOi:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by WRATHman44:

Quote:
MaioccoCSN Matt Maiocco
@
RT @shalisemyoung #Patriots news: Tully Banta-Cain underwent surgery for abdominal tear on Friday. > N.E. might go after UFA Manny Lawson.

It'd be as good a fit as he could find on a 3-4 team. I still think he goes 4-3 if he's smart.

If the Pats want him, for this reason alone we should sign his ass. Obviously, they see talent, because they would have to pay him some pretty decent cheddar. Dont kid yourself (not you wrathman), this isn't a TBC league minumum acquisition. I'll be pissed in NE pays him nice and he blows up there.

I bet thats what happens

Why wouldn't it? TBC produced sacks... came to us and did zip... went back to NE to put up 9.5 sacks the next year. People here said TBC sucked and couldn't play. NE should have showed those people that TBC did not suck... and that it was our defensive scheme that was in fact full of suck.

LOL

Would anyone argue he has less talent than TBC

Aldon Smith, Travis Laboy, and Ahmad Brooks are def I think. Haralson should leave and I dont know what we can expect from Gibson

I expect the team to have Smith, Brooks, Haralson and one free agent (keep an eye on Matt Roth) take care of the position. Haralson and the free agent will probably be the starters in the base defense, with Brooks and Smith rotating in at various positions.

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
I expect the team to have Smith, Brooks, Haralson and one free agent (keep an eye on Matt Roth) take care of the position. Haralson and the free agent will probably be the starters in the base defense, with Brooks and Smith rotating in at various positions.

Very, very likely

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by cwilson830:

Originally posted by btthepunk:

Originally posted by BETTERDAYZ9ERS:
What I keep hearing is Manny on one side and Aldon on the other.

Odd man out should be Parys. I personally like Ahmad Brooks better than Parys

I think everyone does.

I really hope we keep Lawson, I doubt it though. I'll be rooting for him to breakout somewhere else, as long as its not Dallas.
I put him in the mismanaged group with Alex and Jason Hill.

How do you think he should have been managed differently? He's been given lots of opportunities to develop into a good pass rusher.

The problem is that the 49ers looked at his college production and thought they saw a pass rusher.

The truth is, because he was playing opposite Mario Williams, who always drew an extra blocker, Manny was able to get pressure on the QB. It wasn't that Lawson was such an awesome one-on-one pass rusher.

So what the 49ers did get was a very good all-round OLB who could put pressure on the QB on occasion but that was not his greatest strength. It wasn't a lack of time to develop, it was just a complete misjudgment by the 49ers in the draft.

The question now is; do you let a very good OLB walk away with nothing in return, or do you assume Aldon Smith will become a Mario Williams for Lawson and he will become even more valuable in the future?

I think this is a very good point and I agree!

But to cover all the bases and play Devil's advocate here, you could say that Aldon Smith won't develop if teams never need to worry about Lawson. They will just shift blocking schemes to his side (like they do already for Smith/Haralson) and Manny will continue to be blocked out one-on-one and Aldon will never get a chance to develop at the WILL.

There has to be at least a serious threat there and Manny is NOT a guy teams even consider blocking out with more than a RB, FB, TE or OT (I've even seen WR's block him out). And Mario Williams was a man among boys in college...nobody could block him...I would never expect that same sort of production from a rookie (Aldon Smith) in the NFL in order for Manny to be more effective on the other side. This, IMHO, is why we NEED at least a threat at the SAM position "or" Fangio will need to work around Manny and scheme more inside blitzes (or stunts from the outside-in).

In Manny's interview, he talks about the entire LB crew and that they are getting older and "somebody leaving." Well, of all the guys he mentioned, all are signed long-term WITH the 49ers...so, my best bet is HE is the one leaving. Then when you consider the other team FA's we need to sign, FA gaps we need to fill with potentially Franklin leaving, CB issues, rookie salaries, etc. you can see why MM/MB gave Manny practically a zero % chance of returning. And the thing fans on this board forget is that Manny has say in this as well - he may have wanted to leave for over a year now on his own. It's a hard business, no doubt!

Actually, that is not true at all. The offensive typically shifts to account for Manny because they know that the DE on his side get no penetration. Despite this, he is one the league leaders in QB pressure as depicted by a previous link from one of our fellow posters. I don't care who you put next to SOAP as a DE, the OLB's sack numbers will suffer because it is a known fact that he gets no pressure. Manny is not the problem here. Its the lack of pressure that the guy next to him gets.

Moreover, Manny is considered amongst the top free-agents at the OLB position. Successful teams do not let talent go unless they have a better option and Manny is the best OLB that this teams has.

The team needs to pay the man and quit making bad personnel decisions as this would certainly be if he is not retained.

Originally posted by ttime:
Actually, that is not true at all. The offensive typically shifts to account for Manny because they know that the DE on his side get no penetration. Despite this, he is one the league leaders in QB pressure as depicted by a previous link from one of our fellow posters. I don't care who you put next to SOAP as a DE, the OLB's sack numbers will suffer because it is a known fact that he gets no pressure. Manny is not the problem here. Its the lack of pressure that the guy next to him gets.

These issues have been hashed over several times and for several years but I respect your thoughts. But he certainly is not one of the league leaders and Sopoaga's role is different from Smith. Smith is the pressure guy and Soap occupies two guys on the strong side (typically) to allow Manny to support the run. He was not asked to be a "pressure" guy. Smith is attack first but also seals the edge well at the same time as his veteran experience allows.

Originally posted by ttime:
Moreover, Manny is considered amongst the top free-agents at the OLB position. Successful teams do not let talent go unless they have a better option and Manny is the best OLB that this teams has.

Nate Clements was considered the top pic in FA so what's your point? For Fangio's scheme you could even say Manny is one of the worst fits as an OLB on THIS team. And again, who's to say we're letting him go. It's FA...he will CHOOSE to leave himself as it appears that will be the case. And b/c of your ManLove, you are forgetting that we have many more pressing needs of our own team FA's in Franklin, Smith, Goldson, Baas, etc. plus holes to fill in FA and our own draft picks to sign including Aldon Smith. You are ignoring the business here. This team has to make hard decisions like everyone else and Manny wasn't a priority last year all throughout his contract year and he's probably not now either esp. for a role-player. We got Gibson from the Steelers based on this same point...numbers game.

Originally posted by ttime:
The team needs to pay the man and quit making bad personnel decisions as this would certainly be if he is not retained.

This team has had over five years to fully develop Lawson and evaluate his worth...as a first round pic, he's had EVERY opportunity to be "the man." The fact that he is a FA should tell you everything you need to know about how our FO feels about him...not that that can't change but guys such as Haralson, Brooks, etc. are already locked up and Aldon Smith was our #1 pick. You just need to look at the whole picture, beyond your personal feelings and support for ManLaw and not forget it's HIM who will choose to leave (most likely).

Either way, I do like your conviction and who knows, maybe the cards will fall into place and Lawson will be a Niner and realize his potential!!

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by cwilson830:

Originally posted by btthepunk:

Originally posted by BETTERDAYZ9ERS:
What I keep hearing is Manny on one side and Aldon on the other.

Odd man out should be Parys. I personally like Ahmad Brooks better than Parys

I think everyone does.

I really hope we keep Lawson, I doubt it though. I'll be rooting for him to breakout somewhere else, as long as its not Dallas.
I put him in the mismanaged group with Alex and Jason Hill.

How do you think he should have been managed differently? He's been given lots of opportunities to develop into a good pass rusher.

The problem is that the 49ers looked at his college production and thought they saw a pass rusher.

The truth is, because he was playing opposite Mario Williams, who always drew an extra blocker, Manny was able to get pressure on the QB. It wasn't that Lawson was such an awesome one-on-one pass rusher.

So what the 49ers did get was a very good all-round OLB who could put pressure on the QB on occasion but that was not his greatest strength. It wasn't a lack of time to develop, it was just a complete misjudgment by the 49ers in the draft.

The question now is; do you let a very good OLB walk away with nothing in return, or do you assume Aldon Smith will become a Mario Williams for Lawson and he will become even more valuable in the future?

I think this is a very good point and I agree!

But to cover all the bases and play Devil's advocate here, you could say that Aldon Smith won't develop if teams never need to worry about Lawson. They will just shift blocking schemes to his side (like they do already for Smith/Haralson) and Manny will continue to be blocked out one-on-one and Aldon will never get a chance to develop at the WILL.

There has to be at least a serious threat there and Manny is NOT a guy teams even consider blocking out with more than a RB, FB, TE or OT (I've even seen WR's block him out). And Mario Williams was a man among boys in college...nobody could block him...I would never expect that same sort of production from a rookie (Aldon Smith) in the NFL in order for Manny to be more effective on the other side. This, IMHO, is why we NEED at least a threat at the SAM position "or" Fangio will need to work around Manny and scheme more inside blitzes (or stunts from the outside-in).

In Manny's interview, he talks about the entire LB crew and that they are getting older and "somebody leaving." Well, of all the guys he mentioned, all are signed long-term WITH the 49ers...so, my best bet is HE is the one leaving. Then when you consider the other team FA's we need to sign, FA gaps we need to fill with potentially Franklin leaving, CB issues, rookie salaries, etc. you can see why MM/MB gave Manny practically a zero % chance of returning. And the thing fans on this board forget is that Manny has say in this as well - he may have wanted to leave for over a year now on his own. It's a hard business, no doubt!

While picking through the fine points; Lawson has been able to beat some people in one-on-one situations. The larger issue has been some rather predictable schemes on defense. When Manusky DID use some deception, Lawson was able to get pressure.

However, by this time next week, I expect Lawson to have signed with a good 4-3 team that will have a good shot at the playoffs, and he will become a VERY good OLB, perhaps even Pro Bowl level. It is just a shame the 49ers did such a poor job in scouting him, and an even worse job in using him to best advantage...but then that is all ground we have covered here ad nauseam.

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
I expect the team to have Smith, Brooks, Haralson and one free agent (keep an eye on Matt Roth) take care of the position. Haralson and the free agent will probably be the starters in the base defense, with Brooks and Smith rotating in at various positions.

Matt Roth from Cleveland?

Why do you expect the 49ers to go after him?

6'4" 275. That adds bulk and probable strength but his 3.5 sack total is not impressive. 2 of those came against Cincy and 1 against Carolina, neither had great OLs.

Not to disagree with your assessment; Roth may be the best available at a price the 49ers will pay, and maybe that is the best we can expect, but he is not a very exciting answer.

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by cwilson830:

Originally posted by btthepunk:

Originally posted by BETTERDAYZ9ERS:
What I keep hearing is Manny on one side and Aldon on the other.

Odd man out should be Parys. I personally like Ahmad Brooks better than Parys

I think everyone does.

I really hope we keep Lawson, I doubt it though. I'll be rooting for him to breakout somewhere else, as long as its not Dallas.
I put him in the mismanaged group with Alex and Jason Hill.

How do you think he should have been managed differently? He's been given lots of opportunities to develop into a good pass rusher.

The problem is that the 49ers looked at his college production and thought they saw a pass rusher.

The truth is, because he was playing opposite Mario Williams, who always drew an extra blocker, Manny was able to get pressure on the QB. It wasn't that Lawson was such an awesome one-on-one pass rusher.

So what the 49ers did get was a very good all-round OLB who could put pressure on the QB on occasion but that was not his greatest strength. It wasn't a lack of time to develop, it was just a complete misjudgment by the 49ers in the draft.

The question now is; do you let a very good OLB walk away with nothing in return, or do you assume Aldon Smith will become a Mario Williams for Lawson and he will become even more valuable in the future?

I think this is a very good point and I agree!

But to cover all the bases and play Devil's advocate here, you could say that Aldon Smith won't develop if teams never need to worry about Lawson. They will just shift blocking schemes to his side (like they do already for Smith/Haralson) and Manny will continue to be blocked out one-on-one and Aldon will never get a chance to develop at the WILL.

There has to be at least a serious threat there and Manny is NOT a guy teams even consider blocking out with more than a RB, FB, TE or OT (I've even seen WR's block him out). And Mario Williams was a man among boys in college...nobody could block him...I would never expect that same sort of production from a rookie (Aldon Smith) in the NFL in order for Manny to be more effective on the other side. This, IMHO, is why we NEED at least a threat at the SAM position "or" Fangio will need to work around Manny and scheme more inside blitzes (or stunts from the outside-in).

In Manny's interview, he talks about the entire LB crew and that they are getting older and "somebody leaving." Well, of all the guys he mentioned, all are signed long-term WITH the 49ers...so, my best bet is HE is the one leaving. Then when you consider the other team FA's we need to sign, FA gaps we need to fill with potentially Franklin leaving, CB issues, rookie salaries, etc. you can see why MM/MB gave Manny practically a zero % chance of returning. And the thing fans on this board forget is that Manny has say in this as well - he may have wanted to leave for over a year now on his own. It's a hard business, no doubt!

While picking through the fine points; Lawson has been able to beat some people in one-on-one situations. The larger issue has been some rather predictable schemes on defense. When Manusky DID use some deception, Lawson was able to get pressure.

However, by this time next week, I expect Lawson to have signed with a good 4-3 team that will have a good shot at the playoffs, and he will become a VERY good OLB, perhaps even Pro Bowl level. It is just a shame the 49ers did such a poor job in scouting him, and an even worse job in using him to best advantage...but then that is all ground we have covered here ad nauseam.

Absolutely. Nothing has been more frustrating than watching a poor scouting department bring in square-peg/round-hole players and try to turn them into something they are not, wasting talent, not developing it properly, poor scheming, etc. I too look at everyone on this team as a clean slate and I can understand you and other fans wanting to give Lawson one more try under a more competetent coaching staff, scheme and with better overall game-planning. Unfortunately, the business side of things, the numbers game, maybe his own bitterness and the lure of big $ to play for a more immediate playoff contender may all play into the Niners letting him walk cleanly. Hopefully by the end of 2011, as a team, we'll truly know what we have and what we need!

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by ttime:
Actually, that is not true at all. The offensive typically shifts to account for Manny because they know that the DE on his side get no penetration. Despite this, he is one the league leaders in QB pressure as depicted by a previous link from one of our fellow posters. I don't care who you put next to SOAP as a DE, the OLB's sack numbers will suffer because it is a known fact that he gets no pressure. Manny is not the problem here. Its the lack of pressure that the guy next to him gets.

These issues have been hashed over several times and for several years but I respect your thoughts. But he certainly is not one of the league leaders and Sopoaga's role is different from Smith. Smith is the pressure guy and Soap occupies two guys on the strong side (typically) to allow Manny to support the run. He was not asked to be a "pressure" guy. Smith is attack first but also seals the edge well at the same time as his veteran experience allows.

Originally posted by ttime:
Moreover, Manny is considered amongst the top free-agents at the OLB position. Successful teams do not let talent go unless they have a better option and Manny is the best OLB that this teams has.

Nate Clements was considered the top pic in FA so what's your point? For Fangio's scheme you could even say Manny is one of the worst fits as an OLB on THIS team. And again, who's to say we're letting him go. It's FA...he will CHOOSE to leave himself as it appears that will be the case. And b/c of your ManLove, you are forgetting that we have many more pressing needs of our own team FA's in Franklin, Smith, Goldson, Baas, etc. plus holes to fill in FA and our own draft picks to sign including Aldon Smith. You are ignoring the business here. This team has to make hard decisions like everyone else and Manny wasn't a priority last year all throughout his contract year and he's probably not now either esp. for a role-player. We got Gibson from the Steelers based on this same point...numbers game.

Originally posted by ttime:
The team needs to pay the man and quit making bad personnel decisions as this would certainly be if he is not retained.

This team has had over five years to fully develop Lawson and evaluate his worth...as a first round pic, he's had EVERY opportunity to be "the man." The fact that he is a FA should tell you everything you need to know about how our FO feels about him...not that that can't change but guys such as Haralson, Brooks, etc. are already locked up and Aldon Smith was our #1 pick. You just need to look at the whole picture, beyond your personal feelings and support for ManLaw and not forget it's HIM who will choose to leave (most likely).

Either way, I do like your conviction and who knows, maybe the cards will fall into place and Lawson will be a Niner and realize his potential!!

You have no evidence that SOAP was not expected to be a pressure guy. In fact, SOAP indicated in a recent interview that the objective is to make a play behind the line of scrimmage which Manny does often. As far as strong side vs. weak side, the TE lines up on different sides or goes in motion on a play to play basis. This does not result in SOAP in getting better penetration than Smith. The fact that Smith is an overall player than SOAP who Manny lines up next to.

As far as your comment about man crush, I am man and thus their is no need for me to have a crush. However, the business of the team is to build a championship caliber team and that can not be done if the team continues to make bad personnel decisions. Good teams do not invest five years (actually four as he came back last year from a serious injury) into a player who some have said could be an All-star with another team, for the purposes of signing players like Franklin, Smith, Goldson and Baas- as they will most likely never be All-stars. They have also drafted players to replace them as well.

Yes, Aldon Smith was our #1 pick and from all indication, he is going to play multiple positions, which means that he and Lawson could spend a great deal of time on the field together.

Great at coverage and excellent at run support and setting the edge... too valuable to lose IMO but I think we don't resign him

Originally posted by ninersrule4:
Great at coverage and excellent at run support and setting the edge... too valuable to lose IMO but I think we don't resign him

I agree. I think he should be our top in-house priority.

Manny Lawson and just about everyone else on the team is a reminder of a nightmarish past.

Trust me -- when Bill Walsh came in and took over, he cut 90% of the team over a two year period.

No fan missed any part of any team that went 2-14 in consecutive seasons.

Cut Manny. Cut Parys