Niners Offense Still Not Changed Enough

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Thorhawk:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Do we all feel that every OC that has come to this team has been incompetent with play calling? We would roast Turner for the exact same thing during the "Free Alex" year.

OC's call plays to what they feel their players can execute and what the defense is giving us.

Barrows article states the defenses are covering the deep ball and allowing us to throw short in hopes that it will cause a turnover. The opposition is correct. Our QB has thrown 7 INTs of which 4 or 5 are probably his fault. The QB has not been accurate of which almost all are his fault. The QB locks onto receivers: QB fault.

All of these OC's and we still run conservative to sort of conservative offenses. Why is that? It still amazes me that most do not feel that the extension of the OC, the QB, could possibly have anything to do with that.

The 49ers have had two play callers with any history of success since Alex has been here: McCarthy and Turner. Martz has been a train wreck ever since Vermeil left. The rest of the OCs are junk.

Opposing defenses recognize the 49ers have ZERO wide receivers with any YAC capability. Suppose that enters into the equation?

Do you suppose the fact that Smith has no accuracy or touch enter the equation at all?

Defenses do not game plan with the idea that they can ignore a certain part of the field because the quarterback cannot throw the ball there, especially not deep balls.

Smith did throw the ball accurately and with touch yesterday. When the wheels came off was when he had pressure in his face.

He made one VERY bad mistake and that was to attempt the jump pass with a defender in his face. He should have taken the sack. Of course, we should wonder how much impact Raye's three second stopwatch drill had on that decision.

The second mistake he made was the same mistake that Ryan made when Clements picked him - he misread the coverage. To that point, Ryan made the IDENTICAL mistake on the ball Haralson tipped that Spencer picked.

None of these things have answers that are as simple as they look. When Smith has time to set his feet, his mechanics are just fine and the ball arrives where it should, and with touch.

I don't know, it seems as though you still keep ignoring the main issue here. No one is expecting Smith to play like Rodgers or some of the better QBs in the league because we have Crabtree...

Think about these thing:
Would you agree that the personnel on offense has improved over the personnel from 2006?

Alex has still not improved to the status this offensive personnel has improved. He's still making the same mistakes and he's still playing the same way.

I can understand if he improved a little but he's making rookie mistakes and rookie throws. Was it Morgan's fault or Crabtree's fault that Alex misfired on the deep balls to them? The PI call to Delanie looked near uncatchable. He has misfired often to open receivers. He has left the pocket and rolled to the right when he hasn't needed to like in 2006. Yes, he had a decent game against the Saints but he had a decent game in 2006 also.

Do you actually feel the 2010 offense has less talent than the 2006 offense? Alex has not improved since then.

That is the main issue here. You said then, he needs better receivers, better blocking...

He got better blocking and better receivers yet plays the same. That is why it is not the receivers. You give him Andre Johnson and Randy Moss and you will only see a slight improvement and that's it because there are two huge factors that play into this: accuracy and post-snap reads.

I have stated in at least three other threads that the QB play is not adequate and must be improved in the future. That guy is not currently on the roster. It isn't Carr and T Smith is getting zero reps nor is Davis, therefore it does no good to talk about Alex in this thread.

This thread is about what is wrong with the overall offense...and there is quite a bit wrong with it besides Alex Smith.

Yes, the blocking has been better, marginally in many cases, but somewhat better. They still use man blocking which makes it tough to protect blitzes. They can't keep hands down on the DL.

The receivers are better, I guess, but it is hard to tell because the offensive scheme has been so bad that you don't know where the fault likes. None of the WRs have more than "possession" speed so defenses just kill the WRs with tight man coverage on the outside and double VD in the middle. Raye/Sing wouldn't use 3 WR sets to put pressure on the D.

Those are just a few of the problems with this offense that have little or nothing to do with the quarterback.

Yeah but you start with the root cause first on any struggling offense for multiple years even though it has improved in personnel and that's the QB. What we need to try is upgrade the position we haven't upgraded in six years and we had our hance this passed offseason. We all know what the root cause is but the staff has not invested in a corrective action plan unless Mike Johnson is ready to put his neck in the line and throw in Troy Smih or Nate Davis. Honestly, a risk like that is probably the only way Johnson extends his career as an OC because we all know ain't no new coach going to keep him.

What do you want me to say? If you have been reading other threads, I have said plainly that Alex Smith will not be back next year, either by the team's choice or his own. He isn't good enough here. OK?

Now, there are other problems with the offense as well, or is quarterback the only thing you will discuss?

I am telling you right here, if all the 49ers do between now and next season is change quarterbacks, they will continue to disappoint us all. The problems run deeper than Alex Smith.

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Thorhawk:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Do we all feel that every OC that has come to this team has been incompetent with play calling? We would roast Turner for the exact same thing during the "Free Alex" year.

OC's call plays to what they feel their players can execute and what the defense is giving us.

Barrows article states the defenses are covering the deep ball and allowing us to throw short in hopes that it will cause a turnover. The opposition is correct. Our QB has thrown 7 INTs of which 4 or 5 are probably his fault. The QB has not been accurate of which almost all are his fault. The QB locks onto receivers: QB fault.

All of these OC's and we still run conservative to sort of conservative offenses. Why is that? It still amazes me that most do not feel that the extension of the OC, the QB, could possibly have anything to do with that.

The 49ers have had two play callers with any history of success since Alex has been here: McCarthy and Turner. Martz has been a train wreck ever since Vermeil left. The rest of the OCs are junk.

Opposing defenses recognize the 49ers have ZERO wide receivers with any YAC capability. Suppose that enters into the equation?

Do you suppose the fact that Smith has no accuracy or touch enter the equation at all?

Defenses do not game plan with the idea that they can ignore a certain part of the field because the quarterback cannot throw the ball there, especially not deep balls.

Smith did throw the ball accurately and with touch yesterday. When the wheels came off was when he had pressure in his face.

He made one VERY bad mistake and that was to attempt the jump pass with a defender in his face. He should have taken the sack. Of course, we should wonder how much impact Raye's three second stopwatch drill had on that decision.

The second mistake he made was the same mistake that Ryan made when Clements picked him - he misread the coverage. To that point, Ryan made the IDENTICAL mistake on the ball Haralson tipped that Spencer picked.

None of these things have answers that are as simple as they look. When Smith has time to set his feet, his mechanics are just fine and the ball arrives where it should, and with touch.

I don't know, it seems as though you still keep ignoring the main issue here. No one is expecting Smith to play like Rodgers or some of the better QBs in the league because we have Crabtree...

Think about these thing:
Would you agree that the personnel on offense has improved over the personnel from 2006?

Alex has still not improved to the status this offensive personnel has improved. He's still making the same mistakes and he's still playing the same way.

I can understand if he improved a little but he's making rookie mistakes and rookie throws. Was it Morgan's fault or Crabtree's fault that Alex misfired on the deep balls to them? The PI call to Delanie looked near uncatchable. He has misfired often to open receivers. He has left the pocket and rolled to the right when he hasn't needed to like in 2006. Yes, he had a decent game against the Saints but he had a decent game in 2006 also.

Do you actually feel the 2010 offense has less talent than the 2006 offense? Alex has not improved since then.

That is the main issue here. You said then, he needs better receivers, better blocking...

He got better blocking and better receivers yet plays the same. That is why it is not the receivers. You give him Andre Johnson and Randy Moss and you will only see a slight improvement and that's it because there are two huge factors that play into this: accuracy and post-snap reads.

I have stated in at least three other threads that the QB play is not adequate and must be improved in the future. That guy is not currently on the roster. It isn't Carr and T Smith is getting zero reps nor is Davis, therefore it does no good to talk about Alex in this thread.

This thread is about what is wrong with the overall offense...and there is quite a bit wrong with it besides Alex Smith.

Yes, the blocking has been better, marginally in many cases, but somewhat better. They still use man blocking which makes it tough to protect blitzes. They can't keep hands down on the DL.

The receivers are better, I guess, but it is hard to tell because the offensive scheme has been so bad that you don't know where the fault likes. None of the WRs have more than "possession" speed so defenses just kill the WRs with tight man coverage on the outside and double VD in the middle. Raye/Sing wouldn't use 3 WR sets to put pressure on the D.

Those are just a few of the problems with this offense that have little or nothing to do with the quarterback.

Yeah but you start with the root cause first on any struggling offense for multiple years even though it has improved in personnel and that's the QB. What we need to try is upgrade the position we haven't upgraded in six years and we had our hance this passed offseason. We all know what the root cause is but the staff has not invested in a corrective action plan unless Mike Johnson is ready to put his neck in the line and throw in Troy Smih or Nate Davis. Honestly, a risk like that is probably the only way Johnson extends his career as an OC because we all know ain't no new coach going to keep him.

What do you want me to say? If you have been reading other threads, I have said plainly that Alex Smith will not be back next year, either by the team's choice or his own. He isn't good enough here. OK?

Now, there are other problems with the offense as well, or is quarterback the only thing you will discuss?

I am telling you right here, if all the 49ers do between now and next season is change quarterbacks, they will continue to disappoint us all. The problems run deeper than Alex Smith.

That is where we disagree. Improvement at QB means an entirely new dynamic of offense and ability to call plays that the better QB can execute. Alex Smith is limited and it's not a coincidence we have been a conservative offense: [insert all backup QB's including alex smith here].

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Thorhawk:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Do we all feel that every OC that has come to this team has been incompetent with play calling? We would roast Turner for the exact same thing during the "Free Alex" year.

OC's call plays to what they feel their players can execute and what the defense is giving us.

Barrows article states the defenses are covering the deep ball and allowing us to throw short in hopes that it will cause a turnover. The opposition is correct. Our QB has thrown 7 INTs of which 4 or 5 are probably his fault. The QB has not been accurate of which almost all are his fault. The QB locks onto receivers: QB fault.

All of these OC's and we still run conservative to sort of conservative offenses. Why is that? It still amazes me that most do not feel that the extension of the OC, the QB, could possibly have anything to do with that.

The 49ers have had two play callers with any history of success since Alex has been here: McCarthy and Turner. Martz has been a train wreck ever since Vermeil left. The rest of the OCs are junk.

Opposing defenses recognize the 49ers have ZERO wide receivers with any YAC capability. Suppose that enters into the equation?

Do you suppose the fact that Smith has no accuracy or touch enter the equation at all?

Defenses do not game plan with the idea that they can ignore a certain part of the field because the quarterback cannot throw the ball there, especially not deep balls.

Smith did throw the ball accurately and with touch yesterday. When the wheels came off was when he had pressure in his face.

He made one VERY bad mistake and that was to attempt the jump pass with a defender in his face. He should have taken the sack. Of course, we should wonder how much impact Raye's three second stopwatch drill had on that decision.

The second mistake he made was the same mistake that Ryan made when Clements picked him - he misread the coverage. To that point, Ryan made the IDENTICAL mistake on the ball Haralson tipped that Spencer picked.

None of these things have answers that are as simple as they look. When Smith has time to set his feet, his mechanics are just fine and the ball arrives where it should, and with touch.

I don't know, it seems as though you still keep ignoring the main issue here. No one is expecting Smith to play like Rodgers or some of the better QBs in the league because we have Crabtree...

Think about these thing:
Would you agree that the personnel on offense has improved over the personnel from 2006?

Alex has still not improved to the status this offensive personnel has improved. He's still making the same mistakes and he's still playing the same way.

I can understand if he improved a little but he's making rookie mistakes and rookie throws. Was it Morgan's fault or Crabtree's fault that Alex misfired on the deep balls to them? The PI call to Delanie looked near uncatchable. He has misfired often to open receivers. He has left the pocket and rolled to the right when he hasn't needed to like in 2006. Yes, he had a decent game against the Saints but he had a decent game in 2006 also.

Do you actually feel the 2010 offense has less talent than the 2006 offense? Alex has not improved since then.

That is the main issue here. You said then, he needs better receivers, better blocking...

He got better blocking and better receivers yet plays the same. That is why it is not the receivers. You give him Andre Johnson and Randy Moss and you will only see a slight improvement and that's it because there are two huge factors that play into this: accuracy and post-snap reads.

I have stated in at least three other threads that the QB play is not adequate and must be improved in the future. That guy is not currently on the roster. It isn't Carr and T Smith is getting zero reps nor is Davis, therefore it does no good to talk about Alex in this thread.

This thread is about what is wrong with the overall offense...and there is quite a bit wrong with it besides Alex Smith.

Yes, the blocking has been better, marginally in many cases, but somewhat better. They still use man blocking which makes it tough to protect blitzes. They can't keep hands down on the DL.

The receivers are better, I guess, but it is hard to tell because the offensive scheme has been so bad that you don't know where the fault likes. None of the WRs have more than "possession" speed so defenses just kill the WRs with tight man coverage on the outside and double VD in the middle. Raye/Sing wouldn't use 3 WR sets to put pressure on the D.

Those are just a few of the problems with this offense that have little or nothing to do with the quarterback.

Yeah but you start with the root cause first on any struggling offense for multiple years even though it has improved in personnel and that's the QB. What we need to try is upgrade the position we haven't upgraded in six years and we had our hance this passed offseason. We all know what the root cause is but the staff has not invested in a corrective action plan unless Mike Johnson is ready to put his neck in the line and throw in Troy Smih or Nate Davis. Honestly, a risk like that is probably the only way Johnson extends his career as an OC because we all know ain't no new coach going to keep him.

What do you want me to say? If you have been reading other threads, I have said plainly that Alex Smith will not be back next year, either by the team's choice or his own. He isn't good enough here. OK?

Now, there are other problems with the offense as well, or is quarterback the only thing you will discuss?

I am telling you right here, if all the 49ers do between now and next season is change quarterbacks, they will continue to disappoint us all. The problems run deeper than Alex Smith.

That is where we disagree. Improvement at QB means an entirely new dynamic of offense and ability to call plays that the better QB can execute. Alex Smith is limited and it's not a coincidence we have been a conservative offense: [insert all backup QB's including alex smith here].

WOW. I had to register after I read this. This thread has been interesting, Maddog and dj43 seem know what they are talking about, as I have observed much of the same.

You actually think the Offense is conservative BECAUSE of Alex Smith? LOL, that's insane. Do you have any idea who our head coach is and who our OC was the past 2 years? You think a new QB would make Sing's vision for this Offense more dynamic? Holy crap!

Good OCs rejected us because Sing's vision is far too conservative to be effective in this modern era. Then, to say that Alex is the root cause of our conservatism? Um, we're talking about a QB who has ONLY played well in spread/shotgun/3-4 WR sets, and when the Offense is uptempo. The more conservative our Offense is, the worse Alex Smith plays. The fact is, Alex's strengths clash directly with our HC's prehistoric vision.

Originally posted by binary2nd:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Thorhawk:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Do we all feel that every OC that has come to this team has been incompetent with play calling? We would roast Turner for the exact same thing during the "Free Alex" year.

OC's call plays to what they feel their players can execute and what the defense is giving us.

Barrows article states the defenses are covering the deep ball and allowing us to throw short in hopes that it will cause a turnover. The opposition is correct. Our QB has thrown 7 INTs of which 4 or 5 are probably his fault. The QB has not been accurate of which almost all are his fault. The QB locks onto receivers: QB fault.

All of these OC's and we still run conservative to sort of conservative offenses. Why is that? It still amazes me that most do not feel that the extension of the OC, the QB, could possibly have anything to do with that.

The 49ers have had two play callers with any history of success since Alex has been here: McCarthy and Turner. Martz has been a train wreck ever since Vermeil left. The rest of the OCs are junk.

Opposing defenses recognize the 49ers have ZERO wide receivers with any YAC capability. Suppose that enters into the equation?

Do you suppose the fact that Smith has no accuracy or touch enter the equation at all?

Defenses do not game plan with the idea that they can ignore a certain part of the field because the quarterback cannot throw the ball there, especially not deep balls.

Smith did throw the ball accurately and with touch yesterday. When the wheels came off was when he had pressure in his face.

He made one VERY bad mistake and that was to attempt the jump pass with a defender in his face. He should have taken the sack. Of course, we should wonder how much impact Raye's three second stopwatch drill had on that decision.

The second mistake he made was the same mistake that Ryan made when Clements picked him - he misread the coverage. To that point, Ryan made the IDENTICAL mistake on the ball Haralson tipped that Spencer picked.

None of these things have answers that are as simple as they look. When Smith has time to set his feet, his mechanics are just fine and the ball arrives where it should, and with touch.

I don't know, it seems as though you still keep ignoring the main issue here. No one is expecting Smith to play like Rodgers or some of the better QBs in the league because we have Crabtree...

Think about these thing:
Would you agree that the personnel on offense has improved over the personnel from 2006?

Alex has still not improved to the status this offensive personnel has improved. He's still making the same mistakes and he's still playing the same way.

I can understand if he improved a little but he's making rookie mistakes and rookie throws. Was it Morgan's fault or Crabtree's fault that Alex misfired on the deep balls to them? The PI call to Delanie looked near uncatchable. He has misfired often to open receivers. He has left the pocket and rolled to the right when he hasn't needed to like in 2006. Yes, he had a decent game against the Saints but he had a decent game in 2006 also.

Do you actually feel the 2010 offense has less talent than the 2006 offense? Alex has not improved since then.

That is the main issue here. You said then, he needs better receivers, better blocking...

He got better blocking and better receivers yet plays the same. That is why it is not the receivers. You give him Andre Johnson and Randy Moss and you will only see a slight improvement and that's it because there are two huge factors that play into this: accuracy and post-snap reads.

I have stated in at least three other threads that the QB play is not adequate and must be improved in the future. That guy is not currently on the roster. It isn't Carr and T Smith is getting zero reps nor is Davis, therefore it does no good to talk about Alex in this thread.

This thread is about what is wrong with the overall offense...and there is quite a bit wrong with it besides Alex Smith.

Yes, the blocking has been better, marginally in many cases, but somewhat better. They still use man blocking which makes it tough to protect blitzes. They can't keep hands down on the DL.

The receivers are better, I guess, but it is hard to tell because the offensive scheme has been so bad that you don't know where the fault likes. None of the WRs have more than "possession" speed so defenses just kill the WRs with tight man coverage on the outside and double VD in the middle. Raye/Sing wouldn't use 3 WR sets to put pressure on the D.

Those are just a few of the problems with this offense that have little or nothing to do with the quarterback.

Yeah but you start with the root cause first on any struggling offense for multiple years even though it has improved in personnel and that's the QB. What we need to try is upgrade the position we haven't upgraded in six years and we had our hance this passed offseason. We all know what the root cause is but the staff has not invested in a corrective action plan unless Mike Johnson is ready to put his neck in the line and throw in Troy Smih or Nate Davis. Honestly, a risk like that is probably the only way Johnson extends his career as an OC because we all know ain't no new coach going to keep him.

What do you want me to say? If you have been reading other threads, I have said plainly that Alex Smith will not be back next year, either by the team's choice or his own. He isn't good enough here. OK?

Now, there are other problems with the offense as well, or is quarterback the only thing you will discuss?

I am telling you right here, if all the 49ers do between now and next season is change quarterbacks, they will continue to disappoint us all. The problems run deeper than Alex Smith.

That is where we disagree. Improvement at QB means an entirely new dynamic of offense and ability to call plays that the better QB can execute. Alex Smith is limited and it's not a coincidence we have been a conservative offense: [insert all backup QB's including alex smith here].

WOW. I had to register after I read this. This thread has been interesting, Maddog and dj43 seem know what they are talking about, as I have observed much of the same.

You actually think the Offense is conservative BECAUSE of Alex Smith? LOL, that's insane. Do you have any idea who our head coach is and who our OC was the past 2 years? You think a new QB would make Sing's vision for this Offense more dynamic? Holy crap!

Good OCs rejected us because Sing's vision is far too conservative to be effective in this modern era. Then, to say that Alex is the root cause of our conservatism? Um, we're talking about a QB who has ONLY played well in spread/shotgun/3-4 WR sets, and when the Offense is uptempo. The more conservative our Offense is, the worse Alex Smith plays. The fact is, Alex's strengths clash directly with our HC's prehistoric vision.

Welcome to the zone Binary.

I agree with you that Sing is too conservative, I don't think there's any question about that. And I also agree that our problems are deeper than Smith alone. With that said I know that when you try to fix problems you would normally go after the obvious and most damaging first, and that problem I believe is Smith. With even an average QB I think this team is good enough to make the playoffs. Smith is the glaring problem that needs to be addressed first. Keeping him behind center will only cause more heartache and secure our spot in the midst of mediocrity.

I said this before in another thread and I will say it again. Our team is simply not good enough to absorb the 2 ints per game we can expect from Smith. We can't fix every problem immediately but we can sure do something about our QB situation. An average QB will make this team better, including the receivers.

LB

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Niners' fans celebrated the dumping of Jimmy Raye last week, but the question I ask is: Was there that much of a difference in Mike Johnson?

Couple notes from yesterday:

1. The Niners offense scored on the opening drive, but then was held scoreless the rest of the game. It seemed like the Falcons adjusted to the Niners' scheme, and the team was not creative enough to take advantage of the Falcons defense.

2. Somebody tell me if I am wrong, but I rarely saw 3 and 4 WR sets. We are still putting players like Byham in the game when we could add Zeigler as a 3rd WR.

3. Any reverses yesterday, misdirections? Just not seeing much movement.

4. Vernon Davis is an All-Pro TE, and yet we rarely throw to him.

5. It appears the only route that Smith and Crabtree connect on is a 15 yard hook pattern.

6. Could somebody force Gore off the field at some point, and put in another RB to spell him? We have Westbrook and we still don't put him in.

7. Smith thrives in a no-huddle, spread offense. Why not get the offense jumpstarted by doing this in at least one series?

I've got a feeling the Eagles are going to score points this week, so we better get on the scoreboard early and often. I hope this week allows some more creative planning and execution. The system is broken, so why stick with the same game plan.

Maybe Johnson didn't have the time to install anything "new" last week. I'm with you MD, I wanna see something different from this offense. They have playmakers all over the place, but they rarely use them. And your comment about Gore is spot on. He rarely comes off the field and it really shows towards the end of the game.

1) I'd like to see more spread/shotgun/hurry up type stuff

2) I'm with MD on the 4 wide set. I wouldn't stop at Ziegler though. I wanna see Ginn, Hill, Ziegler, and/or Williams out there getting plenty of snaps. The offense NEEDS to stretch the field and it isn't going to happen with Crabtree and Morgan. Having Crabs and Morgan on the field allows the D to sit on the short patterns, they simply do not have the speed to push the coverage downfield.

3) Get VD the ball.

4) Run outside the tackles! I don't care if it's Gore or Westbrook, get the ball outside the tackles.

Well at least we all can agree on one thing here:

Our coaches are the smartest MoFo's in the league and no other teams even come close to our brainchilds...

Doesn't anybody wonder why we look so good in the first quarter and then suck the rest of the game???

Smith was 7 for 7 in the first quarter...

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Thorhawk:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Do we all feel that every OC that has come to this team has been incompetent with play calling? We would roast Turner for the exact same thing during the "Free Alex" year.

OC's call plays to what they feel their players can execute and what the defense is giving us.

Barrows article states the defenses are covering the deep ball and allowing us to throw short in hopes that it will cause a turnover. The opposition is correct. Our QB has thrown 7 INTs of which 4 or 5 are probably his fault. The QB has not been accurate of which almost all are his fault. The QB locks onto receivers: QB fault.

All of these OC's and we still run conservative to sort of conservative offenses. Why is that? It still amazes me that most do not feel that the extension of the OC, the QB, could possibly have anything to do with that.

The 49ers have had two play callers with any history of success since Alex has been here: McCarthy and Turner. Martz has been a train wreck ever since Vermeil left. The rest of the OCs are junk.

Opposing defenses recognize the 49ers have ZERO wide receivers with any YAC capability. Suppose that enters into the equation?

Do you suppose the fact that Smith has no accuracy or touch enter the equation at all?

Defenses do not game plan with the idea that they can ignore a certain part of the field because the quarterback cannot throw the ball there, especially not deep balls.

Smith did throw the ball accurately and with touch yesterday. When the wheels came off was when he had pressure in his face.

He made one VERY bad mistake and that was to attempt the jump pass with a defender in his face. He should have taken the sack. Of course, we should wonder how much impact Raye's three second stopwatch drill had on that decision.

The second mistake he made was the same mistake that Ryan made when Clements picked him - he misread the coverage. To that point, Ryan made the IDENTICAL mistake on the ball Haralson tipped that Spencer picked.

None of these things have answers that are as simple as they look. When Smith has time to set his feet, his mechanics are just fine and the ball arrives where it should, and with touch.

I don't know, it seems as though you still keep ignoring the main issue here. No one is expecting Smith to play like Rodgers or some of the better QBs in the league because we have Crabtree...

Think about these thing:
Would you agree that the personnel on offense has improved over the personnel from 2006?

Alex has still not improved to the status this offensive personnel has improved. He's still making the same mistakes and he's still playing the same way.

I can understand if he improved a little but he's making rookie mistakes and rookie throws. Was it Morgan's fault or Crabtree's fault that Alex misfired on the deep balls to them? The PI call to Delanie looked near uncatchable. He has misfired often to open receivers. He has left the pocket and rolled to the right when he hasn't needed to like in 2006. Yes, he had a decent game against the Saints but he had a decent game in 2006 also.

Do you actually feel the 2010 offense has less talent than the 2006 offense? Alex has not improved since then.

That is the main issue here. You said then, he needs better receivers, better blocking...

He got better blocking and better receivers yet plays the same. That is why it is not the receivers. You give him Andre Johnson and Randy Moss and you will only see a slight improvement and that's it because there are two huge factors that play into this: accuracy and post-snap reads.

I have stated in at least three other threads that the QB play is not adequate and must be improved in the future. That guy is not currently on the roster. It isn't Carr and T Smith is getting zero reps nor is Davis, therefore it does no good to talk about Alex in this thread.

This thread is about what is wrong with the overall offense...and there is quite a bit wrong with it besides Alex Smith.

Yes, the blocking has been better, marginally in many cases, but somewhat better. They still use man blocking which makes it tough to protect blitzes. They can't keep hands down on the DL.

The receivers are better, I guess, but it is hard to tell because the offensive scheme has been so bad that you don't know where the fault likes. None of the WRs have more than "possession" speed so defenses just kill the WRs with tight man coverage on the outside and double VD in the middle. Raye/Sing wouldn't use 3 WR sets to put pressure on the D.

Those are just a few of the problems with this offense that have little or nothing to do with the quarterback.

Yeah but you start with the root cause first on any struggling offense for multiple years even though it has improved in personnel and that's the QB. What we need to try is upgrade the position we haven't upgraded in six years and we had our hance this passed offseason. We all know what the root cause is but the staff has not invested in a corrective action plan unless Mike Johnson is ready to put his neck in the line and throw in Troy Smih or Nate Davis. Honestly, a risk like that is probably the only way Johnson extends his career as an OC because we all know ain't no new coach going to keep him.

What do you want me to say? If you have been reading other threads, I have said plainly that Alex Smith will not be back next year, either by the team's choice or his own. He isn't good enough here. OK?

Now, there are other problems with the offense as well, or is quarterback the only thing you will discuss?

I am telling you right here, if all the 49ers do between now and next season is change quarterbacks, they will continue to disappoint us all. The problems run deeper than Alex Smith.

That is where we disagree. Improvement at QB means an entirely new dynamic of offense and ability to call plays that the better QB can execute. Alex Smith is limited and it's not a coincidence we have been a conservative offense: [insert all backup QB's including alex smith here].

Come on, Joe. I know you are smarter than that. Are you just trying to keep an argument going here?

Look at history. Sing had Martz, one of the most dynamic play callers ever, who had a pretty good passing offense going, and MS immediately pulled him back when Nolan was fired and Singletary took over. Then when the season was over, Singletary fired Martz immediately without even having a replacement in mind. Scott Linehan was interviewed, a guy who had a good rep as being a fairly aggressive passing offense guy but he wanted no part of Singletary. Others were rejected or turned down the job until Raye agreed to run the offense Singletary demanded. Are you saying all of that was just a cover for Alex Smith? Smith had a pretty good final half of the season under Martz and things were looking much more positive going into 2009. I don't think facts support your POV.

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Thorhawk:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Do we all feel that every OC that has come to this team has been incompetent with play calling? We would roast Turner for the exact same thing during the "Free Alex" year.

OC's call plays to what they feel their players can execute and what the defense is giving us.

Barrows article states the defenses are covering the deep ball and allowing us to throw short in hopes that it will cause a turnover. The opposition is correct. Our QB has thrown 7 INTs of which 4 or 5 are probably his fault. The QB has not been accurate of which almost all are his fault. The QB locks onto receivers: QB fault.

All of these OC's and we still run conservative to sort of conservative offenses. Why is that? It still amazes me that most do not feel that the extension of the OC, the QB, could possibly have anything to do with that.

The 49ers have had two play callers with any history of success since Alex has been here: McCarthy and Turner. Martz has been a train wreck ever since Vermeil left. The rest of the OCs are junk.

Opposing defenses recognize the 49ers have ZERO wide receivers with any YAC capability. Suppose that enters into the equation?

Do you suppose the fact that Smith has no accuracy or touch enter the equation at all?

Defenses do not game plan with the idea that they can ignore a certain part of the field because the quarterback cannot throw the ball there, especially not deep balls.

Smith did throw the ball accurately and with touch yesterday. When the wheels came off was when he had pressure in his face.

He made one VERY bad mistake and that was to attempt the jump pass with a defender in his face. He should have taken the sack. Of course, we should wonder how much impact Raye's three second stopwatch drill had on that decision.

The second mistake he made was the same mistake that Ryan made when Clements picked him - he misread the coverage. To that point, Ryan made the IDENTICAL mistake on the ball Haralson tipped that Spencer picked.

None of these things have answers that are as simple as they look. When Smith has time to set his feet, his mechanics are just fine and the ball arrives where it should, and with touch.

I don't know, it seems as though you still keep ignoring the main issue here. No one is expecting Smith to play like Rodgers or some of the better QBs in the league because we have Crabtree...

Think about these thing:
Would you agree that the personnel on offense has improved over the personnel from 2006?

Alex has still not improved to the status this offensive personnel has improved. He's still making the same mistakes and he's still playing the same way.

I can understand if he improved a little but he's making rookie mistakes and rookie throws. Was it Morgan's fault or Crabtree's fault that Alex misfired on the deep balls to them? The PI call to Delanie looked near uncatchable. He has misfired often to open receivers. He has left the pocket and rolled to the right when he hasn't needed to like in 2006. Yes, he had a decent game against the Saints but he had a decent game in 2006 also.

Do you actually feel the 2010 offense has less talent than the 2006 offense? Alex has not improved since then.

That is the main issue here. You said then, he needs better receivers, better blocking...

He got better blocking and better receivers yet plays the same. That is why it is not the receivers. You give him Andre Johnson and Randy Moss and you will only see a slight improvement and that's it because there are two huge factors that play into this: accuracy and post-snap reads.

I have stated in at least three other threads that the QB play is not adequate and must be improved in the future. That guy is not currently on the roster. It isn't Carr and T Smith is getting zero reps nor is Davis, therefore it does no good to talk about Alex in this thread.

This thread is about what is wrong with the overall offense...and there is quite a bit wrong with it besides Alex Smith.

Yes, the blocking has been better, marginally in many cases, but somewhat better. They still use man blocking which makes it tough to protect blitzes. They can't keep hands down on the DL.

The receivers are better, I guess, but it is hard to tell because the offensive scheme has been so bad that you don't know where the fault likes. None of the WRs have more than "possession" speed so defenses just kill the WRs with tight man coverage on the outside and double VD in the middle. Raye/Sing wouldn't use 3 WR sets to put pressure on the D.

Those are just a few of the problems with this offense that have little or nothing to do with the quarterback.

Yeah but you start with the root cause first on any struggling offense for multiple years even though it has improved in personnel and that's the QB. What we need to try is upgrade the position we haven't upgraded in six years and we had our hance this passed offseason. We all know what the root cause is but the staff has not invested in a corrective action plan unless Mike Johnson is ready to put his neck in the line and throw in Troy Smih or Nate Davis. Honestly, a risk like that is probably the only way Johnson extends his career as an OC because we all know ain't no new coach going to keep him.

What do you want me to say? If you have been reading other threads, I have said plainly that Alex Smith will not be back next year, either by the team's choice or his own. He isn't good enough here. OK?

Now, there are other problems with the offense as well, or is quarterback the only thing you will discuss?

I am telling you right here, if all the 49ers do between now and next season is change quarterbacks, they will continue to disappoint us all. The problems run deeper than Alex Smith.

That is where we disagree. Improvement at QB means an entirely new dynamic of offense and ability to call plays that the better QB can execute. Alex Smith is limited and it's not a coincidence we have been a conservative offense: [insert all backup QB's including alex smith here].

Come on, Joe. I know you are smarter than that. Are you just trying to keep an argument going here?

Look at history. Sing had Martz, one of the most dynamic play callers ever, who had a pretty good passing offense going, and MS immediately pulled him back when Nolan was fired and Singletary took over. Then when the season was over, Singletary fired Martz immediately without even having a replacement in mind. Scott Linehan was interviewed, a guy who had a good rep as being a fairly aggressive passing offense guy but he wanted no part of Singletary. Others were rejected or turned down the job until Raye agreed to run the offense Singletary demanded. Are you saying all of that was just a cover for Alex Smith? Smith had a pretty good final half of the season under Martz and things were looking much more positive going into 2009. I don't think facts support your POV.

You mean Hill? Yes Hill had a pretty good Offense going with Martz, Sing had an entirely different philosophy though, a philosophy that has held this team back more than anyone else in the organization (Smith included).

I could never imagine seeing what Smith did last year in certain situations, and designing the Offense like it has been designed this year. It's borderline embarrassing coaching. The only times Smith looked like a real QB last year, was when the offense was dynamic and pass oriented, NOT conservative.

First off, Dog, really nice thread, and GM , DJ put in their usual wise observations, along with JoeC. Maybe i am all wet here, but this is my take, and Dog, i know you may not have this opinion, but i think lean this way:

JR gets fired. Ok, that makes us better already. MJ has way better creds than JR, and way better experience and creds than BM(Bigmike). Here's the problem: it doesn't matter who we have at qB, as long as BM is HC. MJ is literally under his gun, with a BM in his ear...all game long. Now, MJ may be actually calling the plays, but i submit BM has made his position abundantly clear to mJ, who if he wants to keep his job, is doing BMs bidding.

Result: WE STILL got BM football on O, no matter who is OC. Ok, no beating around the bush: as long as BM is here as HC/OC/DC, expect this team to get no better. Sure you can talk about reverses, running wide, 3 and 4 man sets, but at end of day , this is monster of the midway, BMs playbook...and will be until BM is sacked. I would much rather see that happen Sun nite late, win or lose , than at midseason( noln's firing date) or end of season...but i don't think BMs bms are gonna be able to be taken that long.

RE: alex, once we got the OL i felt we would finally know what the kid has ...or hasn't . I completely fanned on that one, in that i forgot he is doing BMs bidding, and is under severe constraints as to what to call, as is MJ. So, even tho this is a 99% minority opinion, until BM is gone, and i mean long gone, I still don't know what alex has. BM has to be outta here before i draw an opinion on the kid. I think we have talent to win. I think we get outcoached every game, the team is lost in the locker room, and BM is just impeding progress. As long as he is here, i just cannot say alex is a loss...nor a success. I DON'T KNOW, either way.

So, while everyone above has valid points, it makes no difference while BM is on the sidelines, usually dropping bms. ONce he's gone, then we will see what alex, mj and manusk all have. I have maintained since day 1, that Bm is micromanaging O and D, and that he does not have the capability to do either. Unlike others, i strongly pray he leaves after sun. Then let's see what we have.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
First off, Dog, really nice thread, and GM , DJ put in their usual wise observations, along with JoeC. Maybe i am all wet here, but this is my take, and Dog, i know you may not have this opinion, but i think lean this way:

JR gets fired. Ok, that makes us better already. MJ has way better creds than JR, and way better experience and creds than BM(Bigmike). Here's the problem: it doesn't matter who we have at qB, as long as BM is HC. MJ is literally under his gun, with a BM in his ear...all game long. Now, MJ may be actually calling the plays, but i submit BM has made his position abundantly clear to mJ, who if he wants to keep his job, is doing BMs bidding.

Result: WE STILL got BM football on O, no matter who is OC. Ok, no beating around the bush: as long as BM is here as HC/OC/DC, expect this team to get no better. Sure you can talk about reverses, running wide, 3 and 4 man sets, but at end of day , this is monster of the midway, BMs playbook...and will be until BM is sacked. I would much rather see that happen Sun nite late, win or lose , than at midseason( noln's firing date) or end of season...but i don't think BMs bms are gonna be able to be taken that long.

RE: alex, once we got the OL i felt we would finally know what the kid has ...or hasn't . I completely fanned on that one, in that i forgot he is doing BMs bidding, and is under severe constraints as to what to call, as is MJ. So, even tho this is a 99% minority opinion, until BM is gone, and i mean long gone, I still don't know what alex has. BM has to be outta here before i draw an opinion on the kid. I think we have talent to win. I think we get outcoached every game, the team is lost in the locker room, and BM is just impeding progress. As long as he is here, i just cannot say alex is a loss...nor a success. I DON'T KNOW, either way.

So, while everyone above has valid points, it makes no difference while BM is on the sidelines, usually dropping bms. ONce he's gone, then we will see what alex, mj and manusk all have. I have maintained since day 1, that Bm is micromanaging O and D, and that he does not have the capability to do either. Unlike others, i strongly pray he leaves after sun. Then let's see what we have.

I agree with you that the team is being run Singletary's way, both on offense and defense. I also agree that his philosophy is SEVERELY restricting any chance Smith and the offense may have. That having been said, I am no longer convinced that Alex Smith will ever be more than a #20 or so QB in this league. I would love to be wrong about that, and a MAJOR move to a more open spread offense might be what would turn the tables, IDK.

In the meantime, the only way Singletary keeps his job is if he allows Mike Johnson to truly have a free hand to open things up and get some flow to the offense. If he allows that it will result in some wins.

As I have said multiple times in this thread, Alex Smith is NOT the biggest problem with this offense. The biggest problem is the design and play sequencing of the offense. It offers the QB far too few options when all you have are two possession receivers, neither of which have shown legitimate starting quality yet, and two TEs, one of which is only a blocker. That is a quarterback killer approach. Alex Smith is a BIG problem, but until the philosophy of the HC changes, and that is reflected in a MAJOR change in play calling and design, the team will continue to lose.

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
First off, Dog, really nice thread, and GM , DJ put in their usual wise observations, along with JoeC. Maybe i am all wet here, but this is my take, and Dog, i know you may not have this opinion, but i think lean this way:

JR gets fired. Ok, that makes us better already. MJ has way better creds than JR, and way better experience and creds than BM(Bigmike). Here's the problem: it doesn't matter who we have at qB, as long as BM is HC. MJ is literally under his gun, with a BM in his ear...all game long. Now, MJ may be actually calling the plays, but i submit BM has made his position abundantly clear to mJ, who if he wants to keep his job, is doing BMs bidding.

Result: WE STILL got BM football on O, no matter who is OC. Ok, no beating around the bush: as long as BM is here as HC/OC/DC, expect this team to get no better. Sure you can talk about reverses, running wide, 3 and 4 man sets, but at end of day , this is monster of the midway, BMs playbook...and will be until BM is sacked. I would much rather see that happen Sun nite late, win or lose , than at midseason( noln's firing date) or end of season...but i don't think BMs bms are gonna be able to be taken that long.

RE: alex, once we got the OL i felt we would finally know what the kid has ...or hasn't . I completely fanned on that one, in that i forgot he is doing BMs bidding, and is under severe constraints as to what to call, as is MJ. So, even tho this is a 99% minority opinion, until BM is gone, and i mean long gone, I still don't know what alex has. BM has to be outta here before i draw an opinion on the kid. I think we have talent to win. I think we get outcoached every game, the team is lost in the locker room, and BM is just impeding progress. As long as he is here, i just cannot say alex is a loss...nor a success. I DON'T KNOW, either way.

So, while everyone above has valid points, it makes no difference while BM is on the sidelines, usually dropping bms. ONce he's gone, then we will see what alex, mj and manusk all have. I have maintained since day 1, that Bm is micromanaging O and D, and that he does not have the capability to do either. Unlike others, i strongly pray he leaves after sun. Then let's see what we have.

I agree with you that the team is being run Singletary's way, both on offense and defense. I also agree that his philosophy is SEVERELY restricting any chance Smith and the offense may have. That having been said, I am no longer convinced that Alex Smith will ever be more than a #20 or so QB in this league. I would love to be wrong about that, and a MAJOR move to a more open spread offense might be what would turn the tables, IDK.

In the meantime, the only way Singletary keeps his job is if he allows Mike Johnson to truly have a free hand to open things up and get some flow to the offense. If he allows that it will result in some wins.

As I have said multiple times in this thread, Alex Smith is NOT the biggest problem with this offense. The biggest problem is the design and play sequencing of the offense. It offers the QB far too few options when all you have are two possession receivers, neither of which have shown legitimate starting quality yet, and two TEs, one of which is only a blocker. That is a quarterback killer approach. Alex Smith is a BIG problem, but until the philosophy of the HC changes, and that is reflected in a MAJOR change in play calling and design, the team will continue to lose.

We all know Singletary is an issue, but I think he's only an issue in terms of in-game management. He has already proven that he is willing to do what it takes to win and that was shown last season. I don't buy the theory that he is holding Mike Johnson, this offense, and Alex Smith back.

Did you all notice Raye's "exit interview". It seems as though everyone ignored the fact that he included the QB in his comments. He said he was doing Singletary's bidding within and with the Quarterback. There is not a head coach in the world or an Offensive Coordinator in the world who will hold back an Offense if the QB they have can do good things: see Raye with Elvis Girbac



Let's get back to the purpose of this thread: "This Offense Still Not Changed Enough"

-Honestly, this is a knee-jerk thread altogether because Johnson had 3 days to insert his wrinkles, which we did see in the game and that's about all you can really ask for unless you want to see delay-of-game timeouts/penalties throughout a game because of major personnel changes that these players already had etched in their brains.

Here's possible reasons and reasonable explanations of why we are not "opening it up" or being creative.

1. Mike Singletary: He hired Johnson based on his notes of what he would do different. Singletary was sold on that. I don't buy the theory that he is holding Mike Johnson, this offense, and Alex Smith back. As for Mike Martz, every HC must hold back Mike Martz, he's an exception.

2. Offense Coordinator: Mike Johnson did add wrinkles and things appeared to be at a better tempo. What happened? We made mistakes in the Red Zone.

3. Quarterback: Yes, the QB can only run what play is called but do you think passing plays are called according to the QB's ability or comfortability? The OC/QB communicate and share this information throughout the week. They work as a team and decide what's comfortable or not. Would different plays be called for Nate Davis or another QB with a quicker/stronger arm? I'm sure we would see more post and seam routes by the receivers that require major zip to throw between the CB and FS. What do we mostly run? We run a lot of drag routes that stay away from the FS.


Fact: Singletary has proven to allow for anything possible as long as it works.

Fact: Johnson called plays with much better tempo and got the balls in the hands of our playmakers much more than Raye given the limited time to install.

Fact: Aside from the quick passes, the deeper routes appeared to be no different than what Raye called. Could this have anything to do with the comfortability of the QB and those routes? I'm sure it does.

Fact: We killed ourselves in Red Zone f**k-ups.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
First off, Dog, really nice thread, and GM , DJ put in their usual wise observations, along with JoeC. Maybe i am all wet here, but this is my take, and Dog, i know you may not have this opinion, but i think lean this way:

JR gets fired. Ok, that makes us better already. MJ has way better creds than JR, and way better experience and creds than BM(Bigmike). Here's the problem: it doesn't matter who we have at qB, as long as BM is HC. MJ is literally under his gun, with a BM in his ear...all game long. Now, MJ may be actually calling the plays, but i submit BM has made his position abundantly clear to mJ, who if he wants to keep his job, is doing BMs bidding.

Result: WE STILL got BM football on O, no matter who is OC. Ok, no beating around the bush: as long as BM is here as HC/OC/DC, expect this team to get no better. Sure you can talk about reverses, running wide, 3 and 4 man sets, but at end of day , this is monster of the midway, BMs playbook...and will be until BM is sacked. I would much rather see that happen Sun nite late, win or lose , than at midseason( noln's firing date) or end of season...but i don't think BMs bms are gonna be able to be taken that long.

RE: alex, once we got the OL i felt we would finally know what the kid has ...or hasn't . I completely fanned on that one, in that i forgot he is doing BMs bidding, and is under severe constraints as to what to call, as is MJ. So, even tho this is a 99% minority opinion, until BM is gone, and i mean long gone, I still don't know what alex has. BM has to be outta here before i draw an opinion on the kid. I think we have talent to win. I think we get outcoached every game, the team is lost in the locker room, and BM is just impeding progress. As long as he is here, i just cannot say alex is a loss...nor a success. I DON'T KNOW, either way.

So, while everyone above has valid points, it makes no difference while BM is on the sidelines, usually dropping bms. ONce he's gone, then we will see what alex, mj and manusk all have. I have maintained since day 1, that Bm is micromanaging O and D, and that he does not have the capability to do either. Unlike others, i strongly pray he leaves after sun. Then let's see what we have.

I agree with you that the team is being run Singletary's way, both on offense and defense. I also agree that his philosophy is SEVERELY restricting any chance Smith and the offense may have. That having been said, I am no longer convinced that Alex Smith will ever be more than a #20 or so QB in this league. I would love to be wrong about that, and a MAJOR move to a more open spread offense might be what would turn the tables, IDK.

In the meantime, the only way Singletary keeps his job is if he allows Mike Johnson to truly have a free hand to open things up and get some flow to the offense. If he allows that it will result in some wins.

As I have said multiple times in this thread, Alex Smith is NOT the biggest problem with this offense. The biggest problem is the design and play sequencing of the offense. It offers the QB far too few options when all you have are two possession receivers, neither of which have shown legitimate starting quality yet, and two TEs, one of which is only a blocker. That is a quarterback killer approach. Alex Smith is a BIG problem, but until the philosophy of the HC changes, and that is reflected in a MAJOR change in play calling and design, the team will continue to lose.

We all know Singletary is an issue, but I think he's only an issue in terms of in-game management. He has already proven that he is willing to do what it takes to win and that was shown last season. I don't buy the theory that he is holding Mike Johnson, this offense, and Alex Smith back.

Did you all notice Raye's "exit interview". It seems as though everyone ignored the fact that he included the QB in his comments. He said he was doing Singletary's bidding within and with the Quarterback. There is not a head coach in the world or an Offensive Coordinator in the world who will hold back an Offense if the QB they have can do good things: see Raye with Elvis Girbac



Let's get back to the purpose of this thread: "This Offense Still Not Changed Enough"

-Honestly, this is a knee-jerk thread altogether because Johnson had 3 days to insert his wrinkles, which we did see in the game and that's about all you can really ask for unless you want to see delay-of-game timeouts/penalties throughout a game because of major personnel changes that these players already had etched in their brains.

Here's possible reasons and reasonable explanations of why we are not "opening it up" or being creative.

1. Mike Singletary: He hired Johnson based on his notes of what he would do different. Singletary was sold on that. I don't buy the theory that he is holding Mike Johnson, this offense, and Alex Smith back. As for Mike Martz, every HC must hold back Mike Martz, he's an exception.

2. Offense Coordinator: Mike Johnson did add wrinkles and things appeared to be at a better tempo. What happened? We made mistakes in the Red Zone.

3. Quarterback: Yes, the QB can only run what play is called but do you think passing plays are called according to the QB's ability or comfortability? The OC/QB communicate and share this information throughout the week. They work as a team and decide what's comfortable or not. Would different plays be called for Nate Davis or another QB with a quicker/stronger arm? I'm sure we would see more post and seam routes by the receivers that require major zip to throw between the CB and FS. What do we mostly run? We run a lot of drag routes that stay away from the FS.


Fact: Singletary has proven to allow for anything possible as long as it works.

Fact: Johnson called plays with much better tempo and got the balls in the hands of our playmakers much more than Raye given the limited time to install.

Fact: Aside from the quick passes, the deeper routes appeared to be no different than what Raye called. Could this have anything to do with the comfortability of the QB and those routes? I'm sure it does.

Fact: We killed ourselves in Red Zone f**k-ups.

Just a few quick responses ......

Quote:
1. Mike Singletary: He hired Johnson based on his notes of what he would do different. Singletary was sold on that. I don't buy the theory that he is holding Mike Johnson, this offense, and Alex Smith back. As for Mike Martz, every HC must hold back Mike Martz, he's an exception.

I think this is true to an extent. Sure Singletary likes MJ, but those notes absolutely had to have some Singletary approved plays. What we call "balance" on our runs isn't a question about running at all, but more a question about how we run, what plays are executed, misdirection, do we start out with doing nothing but passing for 2 quarters and then running the 2nd half. I'm 100% sure Singletary is not comfortable with passing only from a spread offense for a half to jump out and grabbing the lead.

Quote:
2. Offense Coordinator: Mike Johnson did add wrinkles and things appeared to be at a better tempo. What happened? We made mistakes in the Red Zone.

I agree with this. I just want to say first off, I'm not defending Smith at all - BUT - if you've noticed, all interceptions this year came from Smith being under center and throwing the ball into traffic behind the receiver. The reality: Smith is not a drop back, rhythm passer.

Quote:
3. Quarterback: Yes, the QB can only run what play is called but do you think passing plays are called according to the QB's ability or comfortability? The OC/QB communicate and share this information throughout the week. They work as a team and decide what's comfortable or not. Would different plays be called for Nate Davis or another QB with a quicker/stronger arm? I'm sure we would see more post and seam routes by the receivers that require major zip to throw between the CB and FS. What do we mostly run? We run a lot of drag routes that stay away from the FS.

Spot on with this comment, but I would suggest another view:

1) We're not going to bench Smith because quite frankly he's the best option at QB for now - it's as simple as that.

2) If we're trying to call an offense that accentuates his strengths then we need to go back to what we did during the second half of the season - turn this into a spread offense - at least for the the half. Get away from the 2 TE sets and put more WRs on the field. Sure we're missing speed, but there are ways to screen WRs and isolate players, find ways of getting the ball consistently to Crabtree and Morgan. I'm willing to bet the reason why our WRs suck so much is because we don't get them the ball enough. Turn the WRs into viable receiving threats and you'll start to slowly see Davis freed up. You can't consistently win in this league with a 2 TE set. Get Ziegler on the field - Smith is comfortable with him. The only way this offense changes and takes pressure off the LOS and the TE is if the WRs actually get the ball. During practice CHANGE the philosophy and tell the WRs and Smith - look, you have to throw them the ball - we're going to do nothing but work on getting the WRs the ball this practice - a point of emphasis. Until this happens, the 49ers will continue to see Davis doubled and a clogged LOS. You simply can't have a viable passing game with Davis and Walker only with an occasional pass to Crabtree and Morgan. Smith must become accustomed FROM THE SPREAD - so he has a chance to direct traffic and read defenses, help assign blocking and if no one is open, use his feet to get yardage. The draws were very effective because MJ forced the Falcons away from the LOS. Our OL simply isn't good enough to block everyone effectively and consistently in a 2TE, 2 back formation. Just like Singletary commits us to the run, we have to commit to the PASS. This is something I don't see yet.

Quote:
Fact: Singletary has proven to allow for anything possible as long as it works.

I wouldn't say anything. Singletary has a methodology that he likes and prefers and when something doesn't go right, he wants to go back to what makes him feel safe: HB slam on 2nd and 22.

Quote:
Fact: Aside from the quick passes, the deeper routes appeared to be no different than what Raye called. Could this have anything to do with the comfortability of the QB and those routes? I'm sure it does.

Well you would expect this - the QB isn't comfortable because we don't run these routes often nor do we have a variety of these routes in the play-book. Smith's most successful throws are on intermediate routes. He sucks at short stuff and deep stuff he's not all that accurate, but he is a monster of an intermediate passer. When you try and pass out of 2TE sets, it means maximum only 2 guys are running those type of routes, most like 1 who's clearing for the other guy. The 49ers MUST be able to diversify their intermediate route game. Yes, Smith is limited, but you have to win with what you have (see Orton, Kyle).

I think there is a limitation to Smith abilities so then keep him AWAY from his weak points - slants when moving back from under center, timing slants in general and use and diversify misdirection that isolates receivers against certain players, and committing to the PASS - COMMIT to it. Just like you feed Gore, feed your WRs.

This will take time (3 games) to implement, but we have nothing else to lose.

Good post Joe!

I agree on this. 3 games will provide valuable information on the identity of this offense and the capabilities of our QB. If he's only comfortable in the shotgun/spread (pre-snap reads), then it will show but let's hope the OC doesn't get into tunnel vision and lock into spread only for 15 straight plays as it won't work like that against NFL speed.

Just finished reading an ESPN article on the Moss deal going to Minne. The main point was that the Vikings had to do something to get someone who could "take the top off the defense." Opposing defenses had been covering Harvin and Shancoe on all the short and intermediate routes, leaving Favre with very little in the way of available targets.

Sounds familiar.

Originally posted by dj43:
Just finished reading an ESPN article on the Moss deal going to Minne. The main point was that the Vikings had to do something to get someone who could "take the top off the defense." Opposing defenses had been covering Harvin and Shancoe on all the short and intermediate routes, leaving Favre with very little in the way of available targets.

Sounds familiar.

Yeah, to 90% of NFL teams yet their QBs still perform better than Alex Smith. This is what we keep trying to say. Most teams in the NFL have the same issues you bring up but few have this many inconsistencies from their QB.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:
Just finished reading an ESPN article on the Moss deal going to Minne. The main point was that the Vikings had to do something to get someone who could "take the top off the defense." Opposing defenses had been covering Harvin and Shancoe on all the short and intermediate routes, leaving Favre with very little in the way of available targets.

Sounds familiar.

Yeah, to 90% of NFL teams yet their QBs still perform better than Alex Smith. This is what we keep trying to say. Most teams in the NFL have the same issues you bring up but few have this many inconsistencies from their QB.

I agree Brees doesn't really have a Calvin Johnson on his team who can out run people deep and get the jump ball like Randy Moss will do for the Vikings. He's got command though and he's accurate and confident pretty much makes up for it lol