Niners Offense Still Not Changed Enough

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by backontop:

Originally posted by Joecool:

That's false, aside from the KC game, he's had average to better than average protection. He sacked 5 times against KC and sacked 3 times total in the other three games. Alex Smith not getting protection is completely false. Yes, I have seen the games and he is not pressure like a QB with a bad line. He has had on par or better than par protection.

Take note because these 8 sacks are from 151 attempts (Brees has 160 attempts). That's 1 sack per every 20 attempts.

Also, protection isn't what makes a receiver wide open. The fact is, Alex cannot make a throw to an NFL defined open receiver.

Sacks isn't the only thing that refers to pressure. Justin Smith made the probowl off of QB's pressures. He didn't have a ton of sacks but created a lot of pressure on the QB. Pressure forces the QB to get rid of the ball early, hence all of the throws to Gore. Also if the QB doesn't have time to look down field, it doesn't even matter if the WR's are getting open.

No but sacks is good implication of pressure. Smith didn't get sacked once against the Saints and he had ample time to throw in that game. He got sacked 5 times in KC and he was pressured all day. He was sacked 2 times in ATL and he occasionally was pressured. He was sacked once in SEA and was not pressured much as that game was lost due to turnovers and momentum.

Sacks are a good implication of pressure and Smith has had well enough protection to find WR's.

Do you know what else is a good indication of pass protection? The number of times a QB checks down. Under pressure, QB's rarely have time to even check down. QB's check down because they (1) can't find open receivers or (2) do not make the proper read or stick to one read only.

I believe #2 because Kolb was completely broken down on NFL network with his numerous checkdowns and a lot of was that he made is first read, didn't make the throw or didn't go to his second and went straight to the check down when there were receivers open in terms of NFL standard the bold was also mentioned that he has to make that throw in the NFL because that is considered open.

Smith just can't make the read or the throw into tight coverage. If he can make the throw, then he doesn't want to make the throw or the game is too fast.

If our wide receivers are sooo good that they are constantly "open", then why did we trade for Ted Ginn jr???

Why did they say all preseason how he was going to help stretch the defense...

Originally posted by tn9er:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by backontop:

Originally posted by Joecool:

That's false, aside from the KC game, he's had average to better than average protection. He sacked 5 times against KC and sacked 3 times total in the other three games. Alex Smith not getting protection is completely false. Yes, I have seen the games and he is not pressure like a QB with a bad line. He has had on par or better than par protection.

Take note because these 8 sacks are from 151 attempts (Brees has 160 attempts). That's 1 sack per every 20 attempts.

Also, protection isn't what makes a receiver wide open. The fact is, Alex cannot make a throw to an NFL defined open receiver.

Sacks isn't the only thing that refers to pressure. Justin Smith made the probowl off of QB's pressures. He didn't have a ton of sacks but created a lot of pressure on the QB. Pressure forces the QB to get rid of the ball early, hence all of the throws to Gore. Also if the QB doesn't have time to look down field, it doesn't even matter if the WR's are getting open.

No but sacks is good implication of pressure. Smith didn't get sacked once against the Saints and he had ample time to throw in that game. He got sacked 5 times in KC and he was pressured all day. He was sacked 2 times in ATL and he occasionally was pressured. He was sacked once in SEA and was not pressured much as that game was lost due to turnovers and momentum.

Sacks are a good implication of pressure and Smith has had well enough protection to find WR's.

Do you know what else is a good indication of pass protection? The number of times a QB checks down. Under pressure, QB's rarely have time to even check down. QB's check down because they (1) can't find open receivers or (2) do not make the proper read or stick to one read only.

I believe #2 because Kolb was completely broken down on NFL network with his numerous checkdowns and a lot of was that he made is first read, didn't make the throw or didn't go to his second and went straight to the check down when there were receivers open in terms of NFL standard the bold was also mentioned that he has to make that throw in the NFL because that is considered open.

Smith just can't make the read or the throw into tight coverage. If he can make the throw, then he doesn't want to make the throw or the game is too fast.

If our wide receivers are sooo good that they are constantly "open", then why did we trade for Ted Ginn jr???

Why did they say all preseason how he was going to help stretch the defense...

because it's joecool and he doesn't have a clue what he is talking about.

Alex sucks... period. Get ready for another multi interception game on Sunday. He hasn't let you down there yet has he?

Originally posted by BETTERDAYZ9ERS:
Alex sucks... period. Get ready for another multi interception game on Sunday. He hasn't let you down there yet has he?

Alex sucks, but our scheme sucks more, that's the point of this thread. Alex is doing worse this year than he did in his freaking 2nd year under Norv, and he's a MUCH better QB now then he was then. The Offense we are running is pathetic.

Originally posted by tn9er:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by backontop:

Originally posted by Joecool:

That's false, aside from the KC game, he's had average to better than average protection. He sacked 5 times against KC and sacked 3 times total in the other three games. Alex Smith not getting protection is completely false. Yes, I have seen the games and he is not pressure like a QB with a bad line. He has had on par or better than par protection.

Take note because these 8 sacks are from 151 attempts (Brees has 160 attempts). That's 1 sack per every 20 attempts.

Also, protection isn't what makes a receiver wide open. The fact is, Alex cannot make a throw to an NFL defined open receiver.

Sacks isn't the only thing that refers to pressure. Justin Smith made the probowl off of QB's pressures. He didn't have a ton of sacks but created a lot of pressure on the QB. Pressure forces the QB to get rid of the ball early, hence all of the throws to Gore. Also if the QB doesn't have time to look down field, it doesn't even matter if the WR's are getting open.

No but sacks is good implication of pressure. Smith didn't get sacked once against the Saints and he had ample time to throw in that game. He got sacked 5 times in KC and he was pressured all day. He was sacked 2 times in ATL and he occasionally was pressured. He was sacked once in SEA and was not pressured much as that game was lost due to turnovers and momentum.

Sacks are a good implication of pressure and Smith has had well enough protection to find WR's.

Do you know what else is a good indication of pass protection? The number of times a QB checks down. Under pressure, QB's rarely have time to even check down. QB's check down because they (1) can't find open receivers or (2) do not make the proper read or stick to one read only.

I believe #2 because Kolb was completely broken down on NFL network with his numerous checkdowns and a lot of was that he made is first read, didn't make the throw or didn't go to his second and went straight to the check down when there were receivers open in terms of NFL standard the bold was also mentioned that he has to make that throw in the NFL because that is considered open.

Smith just can't make the read or the throw into tight coverage. If he can make the throw, then he doesn't want to make the throw or the game is too fast.

If our wide receivers are sooo good that they are constantly "open", then why did we trade for Ted Ginn jr???

Why did they say all preseason how he was going to help stretch the defense...

Funny how you still refuse to comment on the statements I have made regarding to the Kolb analysis.

Also, if you don't think pressures lead to sacks then your example of pressure all game but 1 sack is an exception. A QB who gets pressure a lot will get sacked more often. Also, QB's who have difficulty making the read get sacks on what appears to be coverage sacks. Our guy makes one read and checks down. That is what rookies do, not 6th year players.

No one said the WR's were great. This is what making excuses for Alex Smith hides. Our receivers are as good as an average NFL teams' WR's. We have better than below average receivers. Yet, most teams with average NFL receivers don't have trouble getting the ball to them and the ones that do, don't have a good QB or an inconsistent QB. To add, there are teams with below average receivers who's QB doesn't have as many problems as Alex Smith does.

Trading for Ted Ginn Jr. has little to do with a receiver not getting open and more to do with the fact that we want to get an occasional big gain. I'm almost beginning to think Alex Smith needs a receiver WIDE OPEN on a deep ball also in order to get the completion made because he has missed at least 3 open deep balls this season already without us having Ginn Jr.

So, explain that? Explain why Smith keeps missing our "low level to average" receivers when they are open on the deep ball. Keep in mind, in the NFL, being even with a CB on a deep route is advantage WR yet Smith rarely has even given a receiver a chance at it because the throw is 2 to 3 yards off.

Originally posted by binary2nd:

Originally posted by BETTERDAYZ9ERS:
Alex sucks... period. Get ready for another multi interception game on Sunday. He hasn't let you down there yet has he?

Alex sucks, but our scheme sucks more, that's the point of this thread. Alex is doing worse this year than he did in his freaking 2nd year under Norv, and he's a MUCH better QB now then he was then. The Offense we are running is pathetic.

He needs to be in a spread offense. It worked for him in college and it worked last year when he came in off of the bench.

Originally posted by Thrash88:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:
Just finished reading an ESPN article on the Moss deal going to Minne. The main point was that the Vikings had to do something to get someone who could "take the top off the defense." Opposing defenses had been covering Harvin and Shancoe on all the short and intermediate routes, leaving Favre with very little in the way of available targets.

Sounds familiar.

Yeah, to 90% of NFL teams yet their QBs still perform better than Alex Smith. This is what we keep trying to say. Most teams in the NFL have the same issues you bring up but few have this many inconsistencies from their QB.

I agree Brees doesn't really have a Calvin Johnson on his team who can out run people deep and get the jump ball like Randy Moss will do for the Vikings. He's got command though and he's accurate and confident pretty much makes up for it lol

Brees has Devery Henderson AND Robert Meachem BOTH of whom can take the lid off the defense. They don't jump like Moss but they demand safety attention whenever they go deep.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by tn9er:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by backontop:

Originally posted by Joecool:

That's false, aside from the KC game, he's had average to better than average protection. He sacked 5 times against KC and sacked 3 times total in the other three games. Alex Smith not getting protection is completely false. Yes, I have seen the games and he is not pressure like a QB with a bad line. He has had on par or better than par protection.

Take note because these 8 sacks are from 151 attempts (Brees has 160 attempts). That's 1 sack per every 20 attempts.

Also, protection isn't what makes a receiver wide open. The fact is, Alex cannot make a throw to an NFL defined open receiver.

Sacks isn't the only thing that refers to pressure. Justin Smith made the probowl off of QB's pressures. He didn't have a ton of sacks but created a lot of pressure on the QB. Pressure forces the QB to get rid of the ball early, hence all of the throws to Gore. Also if the QB doesn't have time to look down field, it doesn't even matter if the WR's are getting open.

No but sacks is good implication of pressure. Smith didn't get sacked once against the Saints and he had ample time to throw in that game. He got sacked 5 times in KC and he was pressured all day. He was sacked 2 times in ATL and he occasionally was pressured. He was sacked once in SEA and was not pressured much as that game was lost due to turnovers and momentum.

Sacks are a good implication of pressure and Smith has had well enough protection to find WR's.

Do you know what else is a good indication of pass protection? The number of times a QB checks down. Under pressure, QB's rarely have time to even check down. QB's check down because they (1) can't find open receivers or (2) do not make the proper read or stick to one read only.

I believe #2 because Kolb was completely broken down on NFL network with his numerous checkdowns and a lot of was that he made is first read, didn't make the throw or didn't go to his second and went straight to the check down when there were receivers open in terms of NFL standard the bold was also mentioned that he has to make that throw in the NFL because that is considered open.

Smith just can't make the read or the throw into tight coverage. If he can make the throw, then he doesn't want to make the throw or the game is too fast.

If our wide receivers are sooo good that they are constantly "open", then why did we trade for Ted Ginn jr???

Why did they say all preseason how he was going to help stretch the defense...

Funny how you still refuse to comment on the statements I have made regarding to the Kolb analysis.

Also, if you don't think pressures lead to sacks then your example of pressure all game but 1 sack is an exception. A QB who gets pressure a lot will get sacked more often. Also, QB's who have difficulty making the read get sacks on what appears to be coverage sacks. Our guy makes one read and checks down. That is what rookies do, not 6th year players.

No one said the WR's were great. This is what making excuses for Alex Smith hides. Our receivers are as good as an average NFL teams' WR's. We have better than below average receivers. Yet, most teams with average NFL receivers don't have trouble getting the ball to them and the ones that do, don't have a good QB or an inconsistent QB. To add, there are teams with below average receivers who's QB doesn't have as many problems as Alex Smith does.

Trading for Ted Ginn Jr. has little to do with a receiver not getting open and more to do with the fact that we want to get an occasional big gain. I'm almost beginning to think Alex Smith needs a receiver WIDE OPEN on a deep ball also in order to get the completion made because he has missed at least 3 open deep balls this season already without us having Ginn Jr.

So, explain that? Explain why Smith keeps missing our "low level to average" receivers when they are open on the deep ball. Keep in mind, in the NFL, being even with a CB on a deep route is advantage WR yet Smith rarely has even given a receiver a chance at it because the throw is 2 to 3 yards off.

I agree with some of the things you are saying Joe.

What I am trying to convey to you and others is that our coachs do not put our players in favorable matchups in order for them to succeed.

Go watch how the patriots run there offense and you will see the receivers clear out by the sidelines forcing teams to spread out. That give the players a chance for 1 on 1 matchups.

Look what Charlie Weiss did to us last week in KC with a team that I believe has less talent. He spread our defense out and carved us up like it was Thanksgiving. Did you at anytime see Manusky make the adjustments to counter it???

When I look at what Singletary's is putting on the field, he thinks that we should have 11 on 11 in the box and we should be able to beat it every time. It's not going to happen that way.

We have the bottom of the barrel leftovers for coachs and it shows every sunday...

I can't wait til Alex Smith is benched/cut so I no longer have to read this nonsensical drivel about how everyone around him (except him) sucks.

Blame the defense, blame the o-line, blame the WRs, blame the coach, blame the OC...but Smith, nope. If the whole world wasn't out to sabotage Smith, he'd be a HOF QB.

Alex Smith is 1-7 on the season on passes thrown for above 20 yards. That's 1 20+ yard completion in 4 games.

That's our problem. We can't stretch the field. I'm not hating on either Crabtree or Morgan because individually they both have potential. As a pair they run the same routes, and have the same weaknesses.

The Saints have Hendersen and Meachem to make big plays down the field. You don't respect them Brees will make you pay. You do respect them Colston, Bush have space to operate. You need that mix. You need guys who can stretch the field and open the field up for Smith.

Originally posted by tjd808185:
Alex Smith is 1-7 on the season on passes thrown for above 20 yards. That's 1 20+ yard completion in 4 games.

That's our problem. We can't stretch the field. I'm not hating on either Crabtree or Morgan because individually they both have potential. As a pair they run the same routes, and have the same weaknesses.

The Saints have Hendersen and Meachem to make big plays down the field. You don't respect them Brees will make you pay. You do respect them Colston, Bush have space to operate. You need that mix. You need guys who can stretch the field and open the field up for Smith.

That is one component that this offense has been missing all year long. 49er management recognized it was missing as witnessed by the signing of Ginn. Without Henderson and Meachem, Colston and Bush would not have the room they enjoy with those other two.

If Ginn can make even one play early in the game for a 20+ completion, it will begin to open up Crabtree and Morgan to operate underneath the safeties.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:
Just finished reading an ESPN article on the Moss deal going to Minne. The main point was that the Vikings had to do something to get someone who could "take the top off the defense." Opposing defenses had been covering Harvin and Shancoe on all the short and intermediate routes, leaving Favre with very little in the way of available targets.

Sounds familiar.

Yeah, to 90% of NFL teams yet their QBs still perform better than Alex Smith. This is what we keep trying to say. Most teams in the NFL have the same issues you bring up but few have this many inconsistencies from their QB.

You ARE a one-trick-pony. This thread is about needed changes in the offense. Yet all you want to talk about is Alex Smith. This title is not "Alex Smit ETC."

One of the changes in the offense is about the need for a true deep threat. That has been true in Minne this year EVEN FOR BRETT FAVRE, a future HOFer. That need was also recognized by 49er management in signing Ted Ginn Jr and drafting Kyle Williams. That was the reason I noted the Moss deal yesterday - it was only to underscore the hope that with the return to health of Ted Ginn it would give the 49ers something of the same thing the Vikings WITH THEIR HOF QB were looking to do by acquiring Moss. If a HOFer couldn't make the passing game work without a deep threat, how can anyone expect the 49ers to make it work with a QB that is a lot less than Favre?

That was my point in the context of the Moss notation in a thread that is about MULTIPLE things the 49er offense needs.

That's all...

dj43, a bright guy, called to our attention how MINN found that they needed a deep threat because the lack therof was hurting their offense. Look at what effect this failure has on a QB, no mastter how great:

Favre QB rating 60.4 2 TD, 6 INT
A. Smith QB rating 66.1 3 TD, 7 INT

These stats suggest that Alex's struggles are somewhat tied to our shortcomings in our receiver corps.

Originally posted by excelsior:
dj43, a bright guy, called to our attention how MINN found that they needed a deep threat because the lack therof was hurting their offense. Look at what effect this failure has on a QB, no matter how great:

Favre QB rating 60.4 2 TD, 6 INT
A. Smith QB rating 66.1 3 TD, 7 INT

These stats suggest that Alex's struggles are somewhat tied to our shortcomings in our receiver corps.

Thanks.

WOW. That stat comparison is startling. I didn't take the time to do that research but it certainly is compelling.

I hope our new OC will put in a two TE/ Two WR set on the first play of the next game, play fake to Gore and send VD straight at the safeties and Ginn deep down the sideline... and then make it mandatory for Smith to pass it to Ginn regardless.

This is a young team, we play admirably in environments they are comfortable in, home and then when we take the crowd out of it like atlanta. But again they are young, our line is gonna miss assignments like a MLB coming straight up the middle, or just be panicked like Seattle.

We have an excellent opportunity this week to set the tone, if we just show that Ginn is in the game plan and Alex is not afraid to throw the frikkin ball. It's gonna help our stupid conservative running approach and I think we will be able to run like we did on the saints. Philly is a good defense by scheme, they don't have too many allstars. Without looking at the roster all I can think of is Asante Samuel, but the other players are just good at playing within the scheme. This meshes well with our Fysical (kind of) line, since they should be able to get an initial push.

Conclusion: if our new OC is a student of the game, he should know what the defense is expecting based off our last 4 games and play off their assumptions. So lets fake a dive and go deep on the first play of the game, show the defense and our fans something other than vanilla.