have we given up on coffee too quickly?

Originally posted by cupcheck:

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by KknighthawkK_9er:

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by Ceadderman:
IF(mighty big if) we grab Spiller it's for ST value. Coffee didn't do well last season but that had alot to do with the Line and the play calling than it did Coffee.

~Ceadder

OK not disagreeing. But who spends a first round pick on a ST player?

Ask the the Bears if they would pay a 1st round pick for Hester, the Browns for Josh Cribbs, the Vikings for Percy Harvin, the Eagles for Desean Jackson, and the Saints for Reggie Bush, and I would bet that all of these teams would say yes. That, or they did spend a 1st on one of these players, and they don't regret it.

Sure, they have value other than on special teams, but so does Spiller (Running outside, slot receiver/receiver out of the backfield, and ideally some trickery).

So you are saying, for example, that Bush was drafted for ST only? That wasn't how he was perceived when drafted. And if they had the pick again?

A team in our position does not waste a first rounder on ST.

Spiller's ST contributions seem to be unappreciated for whatever reason,though his production could easily exceed 120 yds/game.Field position is a huge benefit provided by ST's play.He would be no less of a starter than a FB, who is only brought in on certain down and distance situations.Teamed with Gore in the backfield at the same time ,the matchup problems of having to defend both the edge and between the tackles is an advantage to the OL. also.As with nearly all skill players, he would be in on specific [down and distance] packages.Can't use a LB to cover him in the flat, so use a S.Now what do they cover VD up the seam route with? Who helps out over the top with wide outs?Speed on the edge reduces congestion between the hash marks ,making the OL and Gores job easyer.

OK one moe time. You liken his possible contribution to a fullback. Excellent example. But who drafts an fb in the 1st round? I have no doubt that he could contribute in some ways, although I believe his impact is overstated around here. But a 6th round pick, intelligently used, will give us a good return man. And until it is time for Frank to hang em up, I see no point in taking a rb to sit behind him.

Again, Spiller would be wonderful to have, as a gamble, if most of the other positions were solid. But they are not. Two first round picks have to be cashed for real and immediate value. OL, OLB, DB.

Originally posted by cupcheck:

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by KknighthawkK_9er:

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by Ceadderman:
IF(mighty big if) we grab Spiller it's for ST value. Coffee didn't do well last season but that had alot to do with the Line and the play calling than it did Coffee.

~Ceadder

OK not disagreeing. But who spends a first round pick on a ST player?

Ask the the Bears if they would pay a 1st round pick for Hester, the Browns for Josh Cribbs, the Vikings for Percy Harvin, the Eagles for Desean Jackson, and the Saints for Reggie Bush, and I would bet that all of these teams would say yes. That, or they did spend a 1st on one of these players, and they don't regret it.

Sure, they have value other than on special teams, but so does Spiller (Running outside, slot receiver/receiver out of the backfield, and ideally some trickery).

So you are saying, for example, that Bush was drafted for ST only? That wasn't how he was perceived when drafted. And if they had the pick again?

A team in our position does not waste a first rounder on ST.

Spiller's ST contributions seem to be unappreciated for whatever reason,though his production could easily exceed 120 yds/game.Field position is a huge benefit provided by ST's play.He would be no less of a starter than a FB, who is only brought in on certain down and distance situations.Teamed with Gore in the backfield at the same time ,the matchup problems of having to defend both the edge and between the tackles is an advantage to the OL. also.As with nearly all skill players, he would be in on specific [down and distance] packages.Can't use a LB to cover him in the flat, so use a S.Now what do they cover VD up the seam route with? Who helps out over the top with wide outs?Speed on the edge reduces congestion between the hash marks ,making the OL and Gores job easyer.

This the point that a lot of people don't seem to realize. i am not endorsing that we draft spiller, no .atter what, but he Would spread the field, and make the contain man stay honest. when we line up in an obvious running alignment/down distance situation, our opponents KNOW we are going to stick it up the middle, and stack the inside. A threat to the edges would change that crap real quick. that would soften up the middle of course. FACE IT FANS, THIS IS THE NEW NFL PARADIGM. Desean, bush, harvin, sproles....etc. you cannot just constantly pound the rock inside anymore, thats old style football, and for a good reason.

Originally posted by KknighthawkK_9er:

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by Ceadderman:
IF(mighty big if) we grab Spiller it's for ST value. Coffee didn't do well last season but that had alot to do with the Line and the play calling than it did Coffee.

~Ceadder

OK not disagreeing. But who spends a first round pick on a ST player?

Ask the the Bears if they would pay a 1st round pick for Hester, the Browns for Josh Cribbs, the Vikings for Percy Harvin, the Eagles for Desean Jackson, and the Saints for Reggie Bush, and I would bet that all of these teams would say yes. That, or they did spend a 1st on one of these players, and they don't regret it.

Sure, they have value other than on special teams, but so does Spiller (Running outside, slot receiver/receiver out of the backfield, and ideally some trickery).

Yup. Didn't Atlanta draft Deion number 1?

Or KC, Dante Hall?

Oooooh and Desmond Howard oh so many years ago, I do believe(could be wrong) he was drafted in the 1st round as well.

If that is your biggest need or you're picking after the accepted best players have been drafted(say 15th to 32nd) you take the guy that can help you the most.

Though RB was chosen because the Saints had a big question dealing with their Starter. So he was technically not chosen to be a ST standout.

Miami did take what's his name in the draft a few years back to be their ST performer. He of the broken foot. It's too early right now or my recall would be better.

~Ceadder

Originally posted by Ceadderman:

Originally posted by KknighthawkK_9er:

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by Ceadderman:
IF(mighty big if) we grab Spiller it's for ST value. Coffee didn't do well last season but that had alot to do with the Line and the play calling than it did Coffee.

~Ceadder

OK not disagreeing. But who spends a first round pick on a ST player?

Ask the the Bears if they would pay a 1st round pick for Hester, the Browns for Josh Cribbs, the Vikings for Percy Harvin, the Eagles for Desean Jackson, and the Saints for Reggie Bush, and I would bet that all of these teams would say yes. That, or they did spend a 1st on one of these players, and they don't regret it.

Sure, they have value other than on special teams, but so does Spiller (Running outside, slot receiver/receiver out of the backfield, and ideally some trickery).

Yup. Didn't Atlanta draft Deion number 1?

Or KC, Dante Hall?

Oooooh and Desmond Howard oh so many years ago, I do believe(could be wrong) he was drafted in the 1st round as well.

If that is your biggest need or you're picking after the accepted best players have been drafted(say 15th to 32nd) you take the guy that can help you the most.

Though RB was chosen because the Saints had a big question dealing with their Starter. So he was technically not chosen to be a ST standout.

Miami did take what's his name in the draft a few years back to be their ST performer. He of the broken foot. It's too early right now or my recall would be better.

~Ceadder

Yes, but it isn't our biggest need and there surely will be linemen and linebackers around who can help us more.

Originally posted by 9erfanAUS:

Originally posted by DaveWilcox:

Originally posted by GoldenBear:
The zoners are the ONLY people who have given up on Coffee. The people who matter have not.

Unless a rookie suffers a career ending injury, there is absolutley no reason to give up on a player.

If the zoners had their way, Clayton would be our backup.

JQ

Agreed.. Zoners in general are prone to knee jerk reactionary analysis and are far too emotionally invested in their own opinions.

That's anyone who is alive and kicking. It's human nature to be emotionally invested in one's own opinion. What's the point of having one if you don't stand behind it? That's called conviction.

~Ceadder

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by Ceadderman:

Originally posted by KknighthawkK_9er:

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by Ceadderman:
IF(mighty big if) we grab Spiller it's for ST value. Coffee didn't do well last season but that had alot to do with the Line and the play calling than it did Coffee.

~Ceadder

OK not disagreeing. But who spends a first round pick on a ST player?

Ask the the Bears if they would pay a 1st round pick for Hester, the Browns for Josh Cribbs, the Vikings for Percy Harvin, the Eagles for Desean Jackson, and the Saints for Reggie Bush, and I would bet that all of these teams would say yes. That, or they did spend a 1st on one of these players, and they don't regret it.

Sure, they have value other than on special teams, but so does Spiller (Running outside, slot receiver/receiver out of the backfield, and ideally some trickery).

Yup. Didn't Atlanta draft Deion number 1?

Or KC, Dante Hall?

Oooooh and Desmond Howard oh so many years ago, I do believe(could be wrong) he was drafted in the 1st round as well.

If that is your biggest need or you're picking after the accepted best players have been drafted(say 15th to 32nd) you take the guy that can help you the most.

Though RB was chosen because the Saints had a big question dealing with their Starter. So he was technically not chosen to be a ST standout.

Miami did take what's his name in the draft a few years back to be their ST performer. He of the broken foot. It's too early right now or my recall would be better.

~Ceadder

Yes, but it isn't our biggest need and there surely will be linemen and linebackers around who can help us more.

I dunno, seems to me that it was neck and neck as to which unit was the worst, between the Line and the Return teams. Spiller than Lineman might be the way to go to solve alot of that. Or if we could package a swap of 1sts with another team, we could move up take Lupati or someone else and then Pick Spiller mid round.

Take care of both needs as it were. I mean we DID lose at least 4 games based on the ineptness of our Returner after McCloughan cut Rossum. Spiller would be a HUGE mea culpa from Scottie.

~Ceadder

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by cupcheck:

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by KknighthawkK_9er:

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by Ceadderman:
IF(mighty big if) we grab Spiller it's for ST value. Coffee didn't do well last season but that had alot to do with the Line and the play calling than it did Coffee.

~Ceadder

OK not disagreeing. But who spends a first round pick on a ST player?

Ask the the Bears if they would pay a 1st round pick for Hester, the Browns for Josh Cribbs, the Vikings for Percy Harvin, the Eagles for Desean Jackson, and the Saints for Reggie Bush, and I would bet that all of these teams would say yes. That, or they did spend a 1st on one of these players, and they don't regret it.

Sure, they have value other than on special teams, but so does Spiller (Running outside, slot receiver/receiver out of the backfield, and ideally some trickery).

So you are saying, for example, that Bush was drafted for ST only? That wasn't how he was perceived when drafted. And if they had the pick again?

A team in our position does not waste a first rounder on ST.

Spiller's ST contributions seem to be unappreciated for whatever reason,though his production could easily exceed 120 yds/game.Field position is a huge benefit provided by ST's play.He would be no less of a starter than a FB, who is only brought in on certain down and distance situations.Teamed with Gore in the backfield at the same time ,the matchup problems of having to defend both the edge and between the tackles is an advantage to the OL. also.As with nearly all skill players, he would be in on specific [down and distance] packages.Can't use a LB to cover him in the flat, so use a S.Now what do they cover VD up the seam route with? Who helps out over the top with wide outs?Speed on the edge reduces congestion between the hash marks ,making the OL and Gores job easyer.

OK one moe time. You liken his possible contribution to a fullback. Excellent example. But who drafts an fb in the 1st round? I have no doubt that he could contribute in some ways, although I believe his impact is overstated around here. But a 6th round pick, intelligently used, will give us a good return man. And until it is time for Frank to hang em up, I see no point in taking a rb to sit behind him.

Again, Spiller would be wonderful to have, as a gamble, if most of the other positions were solid. But they are not. Two first round picks have to be cashed for real and immediate value. OL, OLB, DB.

English is absolutely correct, finally someone with some reason. You can get a good return man in the later rounds if we are smart. A good example would be Trindan Holiday from LSU or Brandon James from Florida. To waste a first round pick on a scatback/ return man is not reasonable considering our other more important needs.

Originally posted by teeohh:
maybe it's not giving up on Coffee but giving up on Robinson

if we draft a RB and don't plan on cutting Norris, then Robinson will be the one to go

Oh c'mon now T.O. you know as well as I do that Moran's wheels have come off. He shouldn't have been brought back to begin with. I agree MRob could be on a short leash too, but it only makes sense when you have a FB(Britt Miller) with the team to replace our aging FB, that MRob will have a spot. He'll at the very least be a utility player and those kind of players are important to the final 53 list.

~Ceadder

Originally posted by NMNiner:

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by cupcheck:

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by KknighthawkK_9er:

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by Ceadderman:
IF(mighty big if) we grab Spiller it's for ST value. Coffee didn't do well last season but that had alot to do with the Line and the play calling than it did Coffee.

~Ceadder

OK not disagreeing. But who spends a first round pick on a ST player?

Ask the the Bears if they would pay a 1st round pick for Hester, the Browns for Josh Cribbs, the Vikings for Percy Harvin, the Eagles for Desean Jackson, and the Saints for Reggie Bush, and I would bet that all of these teams would say yes. That, or they did spend a 1st on one of these players, and they don't regret it.

Sure, they have value other than on special teams, but so does Spiller (Running outside, slot receiver/receiver out of the backfield, and ideally some trickery).

So you are saying, for example, that Bush was drafted for ST only? That wasn't how he was perceived when drafted. And if they had the pick again?

A team in our position does not waste a first rounder on ST.

Spiller's ST contributions seem to be unappreciated for whatever reason,though his production could easily exceed 120 yds/game.Field position is a huge benefit provided by ST's play.He would be no less of a starter than a FB, who is only brought in on certain down and distance situations.Teamed with Gore in the backfield at the same time ,the matchup problems of having to defend both the edge and between the tackles is an advantage to the OL. also.As with nearly all skill players, he would be in on specific [down and distance] packages.Can't use a LB to cover him in the flat, so use a S.Now what do they cover VD up the seam route with? Who helps out over the top with wide outs?Speed on the edge reduces congestion between the hash marks ,making the OL and Gores job easyer.

OK one moe time. You liken his possible contribution to a fullback. Excellent example. But who drafts an fb in the 1st round? I have no doubt that he could contribute in some ways, although I believe his impact is overstated around here. But a 6th round pick, intelligently used, will give us a good return man. And until it is time for Frank to hang em up, I see no point in taking a rb to sit behind him.

Again, Spiller would be wonderful to have, as a gamble, if most of the other positions were solid. But they are not. Two first round picks have to be cashed for real and immediate value. OL, OLB, DB.

English is absolutely correct, finally someone with some reason. You can get a good return man in the later rounds if we are smart. A good example would be Trindan Holiday from LSU or Brandon James from Florida. To waste a first round pick on a scatback/ return man is not reasonable considering our other more important needs.

Okay now you're just reaching. How many late 1st day players have the kind of impact a Desean Jackson or Reggie Bush or the Human Joystick have?

If there is someone there fine. But it's like last season. You have a guy drop to you that you basically had NO right to even hope they get there and you take a Pass on him because you think your needs outway the BPA? That's just silly. Besides maybe(doubtful he can do it again but...) Scottie can work some more of that draft day magic and move back into the 1st and take another skill need.

You don't pass on need players at all but you can't just ignore the BPA when he drops in your lap.

~Ceadder

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by Ceadderman:

Originally posted by KknighthawkK_9er:

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by Ceadderman:
IF(mighty big if) we grab Spiller it's for ST value. Coffee didn't do well last season but that had alot to do with the Line and the play calling than it did Coffee.

~Ceadder

OK not disagreeing. But who spends a first round pick on a ST player?

Ask the the Bears if they would pay a 1st round pick for Hester, the Browns for Josh Cribbs, the Vikings for Percy Harvin, the Eagles for Desean Jackson, and the Saints for Reggie Bush, and I would bet that all of these teams would say yes. That, or they did spend a 1st on one of these players, and they don't regret it.

Sure, they have value other than on special teams, but so does Spiller (Running outside, slot receiver/receiver out of the backfield, and ideally some trickery).

Yup. Didn't Atlanta draft Deion number 1?

Or KC, Dante Hall?

Oooooh and Desmond Howard oh so many years ago, I do believe(could be wrong) he was drafted in the 1st round as well.

If that is your biggest need or you're picking after the accepted best players have been drafted(say 15th to 32nd) you take the guy that can help you the most.

Though RB was chosen because the Saints had a big question dealing with their Starter. So he was technically not chosen to be a ST standout.

Miami did take what's his name in the draft a few years back to be their ST performer. He of the broken foot. It's too early right now or my recall would be better.

~Ceadder

Yes, but it isn't our biggest need and there surely will be linemen and linebackers around who can help us more.

I like our Linebackers. I'm wondering what this incessant need to draft one in the 1st is all about. Have we lost someone and I missed it? I've basically been in Sports blackout for the last week. I think that the 3rd is a perfect spot to fill that spot if it's indeed a necessity.

I'm not saying ignore our needs. I'm saying that if Spiller is there then we gotta take him. Field position is everything and if we can fill the Lineman spot with a Lupati or one of the other solid Linemen(out of a possible EIGHT projected to go in the 1st round) then there is no reason not to address our need there.

~Ceadder

Originally posted by Daniel2778:

Originally posted by HessianDud:
Coffee will have a role on this team in the future, but he is not a complement to Gore, he is the same kind of runner. I see him more as a potential replacement for Gore down the line.

if we were to draft spiller, how would we use coffee? i just cant see him get any touches especially since spiller would be the backup due to the fact that he will be a change of pace to gore. does coffee play on the special teams?

I'm all for drafting CJ, even if it meant Coffee would only play ST.

The team hasn't given up on Coffee yet. If anything, we gave up on Sheets too soon and stuck with Robinson too long.

Originally posted by Ceadderman:

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by Ceadderman:

Originally posted by KknighthawkK_9er:

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by Ceadderman:
IF(mighty big if) we grab Spiller it's for ST value. Coffee didn't do well last season but that had alot to do with the Line and the play calling than it did Coffee.

~Ceadder

OK not disagreeing. But who spends a first round pick on a ST player?

Ask the the Bears if they would pay a 1st round pick for Hester, the Browns for Josh Cribbs, the Vikings for Percy Harvin, the Eagles for Desean Jackson, and the Saints for Reggie Bush, and I would bet that all of these teams would say yes. That, or they did spend a 1st on one of these players, and they don't regret it.

Sure, they have value other than on special teams, but so does Spiller (Running outside, slot receiver/receiver out of the backfield, and ideally some trickery).

Yup. Didn't Atlanta draft Deion number 1?

Or KC, Dante Hall?

Oooooh and Desmond Howard oh so many years ago, I do believe(could be wrong) he was drafted in the 1st round as well.

If that is your biggest need or you're picking after the accepted best players have been drafted(say 15th to 32nd) you take the guy that can help you the most.

Though RB was chosen because the Saints had a big question dealing with their Starter. So he was technically not chosen to be a ST standout.

Miami did take what's his name in the draft a few years back to be their ST performer. He of the broken foot. It's too early right now or my recall would be better.

~Ceadder

Yes, but it isn't our biggest need and there surely will be linemen and linebackers around who can help us more.

I like our Linebackers. I'm wondering what this incessant need to draft one in the 1st is all about. Have we lost someone and I missed it? I've basically been in Sports blackout for the last week. I think that the 3rd is a perfect spot to fill that spot if it's indeed a necessity.

I'm not saying ignore our needs. I'm saying that if Spiller is there then we gotta take him. Field position is everything and if we can fill the Lineman spot with a Lupati or one of the other solid Linemen(out of a possible EIGHT projected to go in the 1st round) then there is no reason not to address our need there.

~Ceadder

I agree. There are really no OLB's in this draft that catch my eye. I am fine with the group of Haralson, Lawson and Brooks for now. A late round pick for some depth would be nice.

It could be argued that aside from OL, ST/The return game is our biggest need. Drafting Spiller would eliminate the need to worry about the backfield for several years. And yes, players like Bush, Jackson, Hall in his prime, Ted Ginn Jr., Cribbs, and Hester don't really grow on trees. Late round picks are gambles, and the majority of them don't usually make a team, let alone contribute. BPA available should be the motto, and if Spiller fits, then do it.

Originally posted by chico49erfan:

Originally posted by jogr49:

Originally posted by AZZ:
coffee will be good. give him time.

really doubt this.

that's the spirit!!

Just being a realist. I learned this over the past ten years or so with this Niners organization. No good football people. terrible decisions. Coffee just being another one. I'm convinced they say building through the draft is the way to go cause the Yorks are just cheap. The better organizations not only scout talent for draft but fill in the needs via trades and free agency. this team does not.

The refusal to accept the Alex Smith mistake is exhibit one for me.

Originally posted by Ceadderman:

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by Ceadderman:

Originally posted by KknighthawkK_9er:

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by Ceadderman:
IF(mighty big if) we grab Spiller it's for ST value. Coffee didn't do well last season but that had alot to do with the Line and the play calling than it did Coffee.

~Ceadder

OK not disagreeing. But who spends a first round pick on a ST player?

Ask the the Bears if they would pay a 1st round pick for Hester, the Browns for Josh Cribbs, the Vikings for Percy Harvin, the Eagles for Desean Jackson, and the Saints for Reggie Bush, and I would bet that all of these teams would say yes. That, or they did spend a 1st on one of these players, and they don't regret it.

Sure, they have value other than on special teams, but so does Spiller (Running outside, slot receiver/receiver out of the backfield, and ideally some trickery).

Yup. Didn't Atlanta draft Deion number 1?

Or KC, Dante Hall?

Oooooh and Desmond Howard oh so many years ago, I do believe(could be wrong) he was drafted in the 1st round as well.

If that is your biggest need or you're picking after the accepted best players have been drafted(say 15th to 32nd) you take the guy that can help you the most.

Though RB was chosen because the Saints had a big question dealing with their Starter. So he was technically not chosen to be a ST standout.

Miami did take what's his name in the draft a few years back to be their ST performer. He of the broken foot. It's too early right now or my recall would be better.

~Ceadder

Yes, but it isn't our biggest need and there surely will be linemen and linebackers around who can help us more.

I dunno, seems to me that it was neck and neck as to which unit was the worst, between the Line and the Return teams. Spiller than Lineman might be the way to go to solve alot of that. Or if we could package a swap of 1sts with another team, we could move up take Lupati or someone else and then Pick Spiller mid round.

Take care of both needs as it were. I mean we DID lose at least 4 games based on the ineptness of our Returner after McCloughan cut Rossum. Spiller would be a HUGE mea culpa from Scottie.

~Ceadder

thats the beauty of having two picks...we can go spiller and best OL possible. I really dont see us having that big of a need for a linebacker if you ask me.