VD atop the NFL in dropped passes and Crabs right behind him(UPDATED)

Originally posted by Cuphalffull:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by taney71:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by ktate14:

Originally posted by silkyjohnson:
Just watching Smith in the 1st quarter explains why our receivers have so many dropped passes.

So it's Smith's fault the receivers drop the ball??

Yup, on some of them it sure is... You've got to be blind not to see this.

Call me blind. VD drops the ball and it's Smith's fault. How so? Give detail cause I'm lost.

Note: dropping the ball is a different issue than QB overthrows etc. so do not conflate the two issues.

It's called a touch pass instead of a dart. Trust me, after playing receiver for years there are several things a QB can do to help you out. Alex has a problem throwing darts when a softer pass would do much better for the team.

BTW sorry about your blindness...

At this level a receiver needs to catch those passes to be considered good or great. It is the QBs obligation to get the ball in a position for the receiver to catch it. If it hits a receiver’s hands, he should catch it. There will be times that the ball will be perfectly placed, there will be other times that the receiver will be expected to stretch himself a bit, while there will be other times that the receiver will need to make a spectacular catch. The average receiver can get the first, the good ones can catch the second, while the great ones can do the third. Our guys are good and can make some tough catches but they are not yet great where they can consistently make the great catches.

BTW - how many touch passes did Elway throw yet he is considered one of the best QBs of all time.

Receivers in Green Bay would receive broken fingers in PRACTICE cause Favre was firing them so hard. Don't give me that touch pass shiz. If it hits a receiver in the hands then they should catch it regardless of velocity. This is the NFL not girl scouts.

You didn't play in the pro's so your point of view in regards to your expeience is moot. Yes there are times where a touch maybe is the better pass to throw, but if it hits a wr in the hands then it is NOT Smiths fault if it's not caught, regardless of the pass style/velocity.

Originally posted by 9erfan4life:
any good WR will tell you if it hits them in the hands they should catch it

sure catches are easier if the ball is in the perfect place but throwing a perfect pass is a lot harder than people realize

Exactly! All these arguments about the kind of ball Smith throws being at least partially responsible for drops, just alibis receivers and ignores the fact they were mostly very catchable balls! High, low, early, late, if it's in your hands............etc. Perfect passes? No, but so what? Who was it that said, "Just catch the damn ball"? Is Smith still inconsistent? Yes. And do some of his throws arrive in a less than ideal manner? Sure, but that's not really pertinent when you're a pro receiver and it still hits you in the hands, is it? So far, both these guys are having good years and I don't want to take anything away from that, but the drops ARE aggravating and need to be corrected. With Crabtree, I think (and hope) they are a rookie aberration, like Jerry's. With Vernon, well, we may have just have to grin and bear it and accept it's part of his game, like T.O.'s and just take the good with the not so.

If the ball is anywhere in the vicinity of the receiver where he could extend and make contact with the ball and pull it in, he should catch the ball. If he makes it, it's a great catch. If he doesn't he shouldn't blame anyone else but himself. Cause you can't have all the glory and none of the blame.

But if it sailed or too wide, yeah absolutely it's on the qb.

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
If the ball is anywhere in the vicinity of the receiver where he could extend and make contact with the ball and pull it in, he should catch the ball. If he makes it, it's a great catch. If he doesn't he shouldn't blame anyone else but himself. Cause you can't have all the glory and none of the blame.

But if it sailed or too wide, yeah absolutely it's on the qb.

True the first rule I always learned as a receiver, if the ball hits your hands you better catch it. Doesn't matter if its a tough catch. I don't believe in harassing players for drops but I do believe in them taking accountability for them. Vernon Davis has done that and look at the season he is having in-spite of being at the top of this list. The catches he makes this year I don't think he was capable of in the past.

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by Cuphalffull:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by taney71:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by ktate14:

Originally posted by silkyjohnson:
Just watching Smith in the 1st quarter explains why our receivers have so many dropped passes.

So it's Smith's fault the receivers drop the ball??

Yup, on some of them it sure is... You've got to be blind not to see this.

Call me blind. VD drops the ball and it's Smith's fault. How so? Give detail cause I'm lost.

Note: dropping the ball is a different issue than QB overthrows etc. so do not conflate the two issues.

It's called a touch pass instead of a dart. Trust me, after playing receiver for years there are several things a QB can do to help you out. Alex has a problem throwing darts when a softer pass would do much better for the team.

BTW sorry about your blindness...

At this level a receiver needs to catch those passes to be considered good or great. It is the QBs obligation to get the ball in a position for the receiver to catch it. If it hits a receiver’s hands, he should catch it. There will be times that the ball will be perfectly placed, there will be other times that the receiver will be expected to stretch himself a bit, while there will be other times that the receiver will need to make a spectacular catch. The average receiver can get the first, the good ones can catch the second, while the great ones can do the third. Our guys are good and can make some tough catches but they are not yet great where they can consistently make the great catches.

BTW - how many touch passes did Elway throw yet he is considered one of the best QBs of all time.

Look, I'm not knocking Smith here. I'm just stating a fact, which is that he has some fault in these dropped passes also.

I noticed that you edited your response about me being blind and not worth arguing with because of my blindness. I will say that I am glad to see this as demeaning another is a very poor way to argue and is a sign of weakness in an argument.

What I see is that you are holding professional caliber receivers to your level of ability. For you a touch pass is vital but for a professional, expectations are much higher. I understand the importance of touch passes. I understand that it makes it easier on the receiver. At the same time I also understand that the great receivers make those catches and don’t allow for blame to be on the QB.

Let’s take a look at a couple of the great ones.

One of our Favorites Jerry Rice: he was able to make the tough catches regardless of how poorly the ball was thrown, regardless of the velocity, when the ball was in the air, he generally came down with it. I never heard of him blaming the QB for one of his rare misses.
One of my favorites to watch was Lynn Swan: Bradshaw had one of the worst touches on his passes then most QBs that I have ever witnessed and his accuracy was atrocious, but Swan would make some spectacular catches. He made Bradshaw look good because if it hit his hands, it was caught.

Are you getting what I am saying? I am not saying that Alex throws nice touch passes. He does need to work on the touch he puts on the ball, but a great receiver would not allow for that to be an excuse because he would catch the pass. The problem is that we don’t have great receivers so the touch on the pass may impact their ability to catch the pass. IMO, on those passes because our receivers have not reached the level of being great, the onus falls on both (but good receivers will take a bulk of the responsibility) as Alex needs to develop a better touch and the receivers need to improve their focus on those tougher catches and becoming great.

Originally posted by tmg808:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
If the ball is anywhere in the vicinity of the receiver where he could extend and make contact with the ball and pull it in, he should catch the ball. If he makes it, it's a great catch. If he doesn't he shouldn't blame anyone else but himself. Cause you can't have all the glory and none of the blame.

But if it sailed or too wide, yeah absolutely it's on the qb.

True the first rule I always learned as a receiver, if the ball hits your hands you better catch it. Doesn't matter if its a tough catch. I don't believe in harassing players for drops but I do believe in them taking accountability for them. Vernon Davis has done that and look at the season he is having in-spite of being at the top of this list. The catches he makes this year I don't think he was capable of in the past.

Ok, finally we have someone else who played receiver... Help me out here, is it better for the team if the QB throws to you as hard as he can when you're wide open or if he takes a bit off of the pass to throw a more catch-able ball?

Originally posted by Cuphalffull:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by Cuphalffull:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by taney71:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by ktate14:

Originally posted by silkyjohnson:
Just watching Smith in the 1st quarter explains why our receivers have so many dropped passes.

So it's Smith's fault the receivers drop the ball??

Yup, on some of them it sure is... You've got to be blind not to see this.

Call me blind. VD drops the ball and it's Smith's fault. How so? Give detail cause I'm lost.

Note: dropping the ball is a different issue than QB overthrows etc. so do not conflate the two issues.

It's called a touch pass instead of a dart. Trust me, after playing receiver for years there are several things a QB can do to help you out. Alex has a problem throwing darts when a softer pass would do much better for the team.

BTW sorry about your blindness...

At this level a receiver needs to catch those passes to be considered good or great. It is the QBs obligation to get the ball in a position for the receiver to catch it. If it hits a receiver’s hands, he should catch it. There will be times that the ball will be perfectly placed, there will be other times that the receiver will be expected to stretch himself a bit, while there will be other times that the receiver will need to make a spectacular catch. The average receiver can get the first, the good ones can catch the second, while the great ones can do the third. Our guys are good and can make some tough catches but they are not yet great where they can consistently make the great catches.

BTW - how many touch passes did Elway throw yet he is considered one of the best QBs of all time.

Look, I'm not knocking Smith here. I'm just stating a fact, which is that he has some fault in these dropped passes also.

I noticed that you edited your response about me being blind and not worth arguing with because of my blindness. I will say that I am glad to see this as demeaning another is a very poor way to argue and is a sign of weakness in an argument.

What I see is that you are holding professional caliber receivers to your level of ability. For you a touch pass is vital but for a professional, expectations are much higher. I understand the importance of touch passes. I understand that it makes it easier on the receiver. At the same time I also understand that the great receivers make those catches and don’t allow for blame to be on the QB.

Let’s take a look at a couple of the great ones.

One of our Favorites Jerry Rice: he was able to make the tough catches regardless of how poorly the ball was thrown, regardless of the velocity, when the ball was in the air, he generally came down with it. I never heard of him blaming the QB for one of his rare misses.
One of my favorites to watch was Lynn Swan: Bradshaw had one of the worst touches on his passes then most QBs that I have ever witnessed and his accuracy was atrocious, but Swan would make some spectacular catches. He made Bradshaw look good because if it hit his hands, it was caught.

Are you getting what I am saying? I am not saying that Alex throws nice touch passes. He does need to work on the touch he puts on the ball, but a great receiver would not allow for that to be an excuse because he would catch the pass. The problem is that we don’t have great receivers so the touch on the pass may impact their ability to catch the pass. IMO, on those passes because our receivers have not reached the level of being great, the onus falls on both (but good receivers will take a bulk of the responsibility) as Alex needs to develop a better touch and the receivers need to improve their focus on those tougher catches and becoming great.

Yeah, I apologize for that. I thought you were the same poster who said to call them blind.

Trust me, I of all people know that my skill level is not that of a NFL receiver. Most people on here don't know anything about actually playing the position and just assume that any given NFL receive should be able to catch any pass that any QB in the world puts within their grasp.

All I'm saying is that Alex can help the team out and use a little more touch at times. This is for the better of the team not for any individual receivers stats. With that said, I stand by my comment that Alex does have fault with some of these drops...

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by tmg808:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
If the ball is anywhere in the vicinity of the receiver where he could extend and make contact with the ball and pull it in, he should catch the ball. If he makes it, it's a great catch. If he doesn't he shouldn't blame anyone else but himself. Cause you can't have all the glory and none of the blame.

But if it sailed or too wide, yeah absolutely it's on the qb.

True the first rule I always learned as a receiver, if the ball hits your hands you better catch it. Doesn't matter if its a tough catch. I don't believe in harassing players for drops but I do believe in them taking accountability for them. Vernon Davis has done that and look at the season he is having in-spite of being at the top of this list. The catches he makes this year I don't think he was capable of in the past.

Ok, finally we have someone else who played receiver... Help me out here, is it better for the team if the QB throws to you as hard as he can when you're wide open or if he takes a bit off of the pass to throw a more catch-able ball?

The qb may not have time to make a 'touch' pass. Defenders are closing on his receivers, he has to get it there quickly. Or it's a screen pass, but defenders are not buying it. They are coming at him full speed. He has to get it out quickly or it's a sack. Not a good time to try a touch pass.

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by tmg808:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
If the ball is anywhere in the vicinity of the receiver where he could extend and make contact with the ball and pull it in, he should catch the ball. If he makes it, it's a great catch. If he doesn't he shouldn't blame anyone else but himself. Cause you can't have all the glory and none of the blame.

But if it sailed or too wide, yeah absolutely it's on the qb.

True the first rule I always learned as a receiver, if the ball hits your hands you better catch it. Doesn't matter if its a tough catch. I don't believe in harassing players for drops but I do believe in them taking accountability for them. Vernon Davis has done that and look at the season he is having in-spite of being at the top of this list. The catches he makes this year I don't think he was capable of in the past.

Ok, finally we have someone else who played receiver... Help me out here, is it better for the team if the QB throws to you as hard as he can when you're wide open or if he takes a bit off of the pass to throw a more catch-able ball?

Depends on the route but if the QB throws a sharper pass it will get to me quicker and give me a better chance at YAC. If its lobbed the defense is going to have time to get to me. My philosophy was just put the ball in the air. Do whatever you have to do as a QB but just get it close. I will go get it, The rest is up to me to make a play.

I played WR and CB and the bullet pass is much harder to defend. So knowing that I would advise my QB to throw as many bullet passes as he could. When i played DB I was just licking my chops at a ball floating through the air. If you want flutter balls then put Hill back in.

[ Edited by MadMartz on Dec 15, 2009 at 08:53:10 ]

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Yeah, I apologize for that. I thought you were the same poster who said to call them blind.

Trust me, I of all people know that my skill level is not that of a NFL receiver. Most people on here don't know anything about actually playing the position and just assume that any given NFL receive should be able to catch any pass that any QB in the world puts within their grasp.

All I'm saying is that Alex can help the team out and use a little more touch at times. This is for the better of the team not for any individual receivers stats. With that said, I stand by my comment that Alex does have fault with some of these drops...

Apology accepted and I understand the mix-up.

Look, no one is saying that it isn’t easier. If you truly were a receiver you would know that you don’t always get the touch pass you want. You would know that there are times that you’re QB, even with his best intentions does not always provide a great touch pass. That said if I missed a catch that hit my hands, it was my responsibility. I am accountable. At least that is how it was when I played many years ago. Perhaps things have changed in our no one accepts responsibility era. I never went up to my QB and said “Man, I know it hit my hands but it would have been nice if you could have taken a bit off of it, a little more touch would have been great.” Hell no, my words were, “My Bad”. It’s called, as an above poster noted, “Accountability”.

Could Alex help the receiver out, yes he could but a QB is not always in a position to provide that touch pass to make it easy on the receiver, it is up to the receiver to become great and make those tough catches.

I see it this way. There will be times that the QB will make the receiver look great with a nice touch pass that makes the receiver shine. There will also be times that the receiver will make the QB look good by making a spectacular catch in spite of a poorly thrown ball. Neither will allow for the excuse for the miss or poorly thrown ball to be placed upon the other. Again, personal Accountability.

Originally posted by jreff22:
He's also atop in TD's......gotta take the good with the bad.

That's pretty much the way I see it. I still go through the roof when it happens, but, the fact remains, he is very productive this season.

I think it's time to face the truth: Crabtree wil probably correct his drops with a good offseason.

But not Davis. He does not have good hands, period. But he is a playmaker. So we'll just have to learn how to live with his drops.

Originally posted by Brazilian49er:
I think it's time to face the truth: Crabtree wil probably correct his drops with a good offseason.

But not Davis. He does not have good hands, period. But he is a playmaker. So we'll just have to learn how to live with his drops.

Excellent comment. Davis has improved dramatically. He has his defects, as all receivers do, but he is at least catching a whole lot more balls than last year. He is also being a featured receiver and he is showing that he can definitely play in this league. Crabtree is continuing to develop and he will be a star as well. That is two playmakers. Now we will see if Hill and Morgan can be complimentary.

Originally posted by qnnhan7:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by tmg808:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
If the ball is anywhere in the vicinity of the receiver where he could extend and make contact with the ball and pull it in, he should catch the ball. If he makes it, it's a great catch. If he doesn't he shouldn't blame anyone else but himself. Cause you can't have all the glory and none of the blame.

But if it sailed or too wide, yeah absolutely it's on the qb.

True the first rule I always learned as a receiver, if the ball hits your hands you better catch it. Doesn't matter if its a tough catch. I don't believe in harassing players for drops but I do believe in them taking accountability for them. Vernon Davis has done that and look at the season he is having in-spite of being at the top of this list. The catches he makes this year I don't think he was capable of in the past.

Ok, finally we have someone else who played receiver... Help me out here, is it better for the team if the QB throws to you as hard as he can when you're wide open or if he takes a bit off of the pass to throw a more catch-able ball?

The qb may not have time to make a 'touch' pass. Defenders are closing on his receivers, he has to get it there quickly. Or it's a screen pass, but defenders are not buying it. They are coming at him full speed. He has to get it out quickly or it's a sack. Not a good time to try a touch pass.

Just as there are reasons to throw a dart, as you outlined above, there are also situations where it is better for the team to throw a more catch-able ball. A fade in the end zone, or a wide open receiver when the QB has time. Alex has done this at times; but, he has also thrown darts in these situations when it wasn't required. These are just normal growing pains that a young QB goes through.

Originally posted by Cuphalffull:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Yeah, I apologize for that. I thought you were the same poster who said to call them blind.

Trust me, I of all people know that my skill level is not that of a NFL receiver. Most people on here don't know anything about actually playing the position and just assume that any given NFL receive should be able to catch any pass that any QB in the world puts within their grasp.

All I'm saying is that Alex can help the team out and use a little more touch at times. This is for the better of the team not for any individual receivers stats. With that said, I stand by my comment that Alex does have fault with some of these drops...

Apology accepted and I understand the mix-up.

Look, no one is saying that it isn’t easier. If you truly were a receiver you would know that you don’t always get the touch pass you want. You would know that there are times that you’re QB, even with his best intentions does not always provide a great touch pass. That said if I missed a catch that hit my hands, it was my responsibility. I am accountable. At least that is how it was when I played many years ago. Perhaps things have changed in our no one accepts responsibility era. I never went up to my QB and said “Man, I know it hit my hands but it would have been nice if you could have taken a bit off of it, a little more touch would have been great.” Hell no, my words were, “My Bad”. It’s called, as an above poster noted, “Accountability”.

Could Alex help the receiver out, yes he could but a QB is not always in a position to provide that touch pass to make it easy on the receiver, it is up to the receiver to become great and make those tough catches.

I see it this way. There will be times that the QB will make the receiver look great with a nice touch pass that makes the receiver shine. There will also be times that the receiver will make the QB look good by making a spectacular catch in spite of a poorly thrown ball. Neither will allow for the excuse for the miss or poorly thrown ball to be placed upon the other. Again, personal Accountability.

Yeah, I don't know how this twisted into an argument of accountability... I never said that the receiver should not be accountable for the dropped passes, nor have I said that this is all Alex's fault.

As for the "no one accepts responsibility era", I hung up my cleats before most on here strapped theirs on. In fact it's been about 16 years since I last played...

I stand by my original comment that Alex has fault in this. He can do things to help out his receivers and his receivers can do things to help him out. It sucks that you didn't have a good enough communication with your QB to let him know what you like/dislike or could help you out. I've always talked this kind of stuff over with my QB's and we've found ways to help each other out.