3-4 or 4-3

Good posts by both WillistheWall and NCommand.

a few thoughts while reading these posts...

- yes, more than anything, I want Willis roaming more freely. It's quite a hindrance to have an OL easily slipping through. Willis and TKO do a good job disengaging and defeating those blockers, but at quite a cost.

- not very many defenses run a 2-gap 3-4 system anymore. Do any teams use it exclusively?

- Franklin was said to have dropped down to about 308 last season. Looks like he just hits an A gap and hopes for the best. He still gets angled out of plays by single OL, and anchors poorly vs double teams.

- Our boys have speed to run the arc well, but struggle to battle OTs back inside.

- I so agree with you on Manny and Justin, WtW.

- Yes, NC, looks like Manusky did pick up a bad philosophy under Nolan/Sing. This 1-gap 3-4 would be stronger if Manusky wasn't so soft with it. Maybe he is stubborn to evolve into more aggressive styles, since our offense has not proven capable of consistently putting up points?

Originally posted by oldman9er:
- yes, more than anything, I want Willis roaming more freely. It's quite a hindrance to have an OL easily slipping through. Willis and TKO do a good job disengaging and defeating those blockers, but at quite a cost.

No question here. We actually have probably the only 3-4 defense in the league who's designed solely to free Willis yet we're stil struggling with it so far. We aren' effective at the OLB in pass rushing so they are used more to seal edges and drop back in coverage and TKO is used as a defensive FB to free up Willis

Originally posted by oldman9er:
- not very many defenses run a 2-gap 3-4 system anymore. Do any teams use it exclusively?

While more and more teams go to the 3-4, I would say only your teams with the beef really employ a 2-gap in NE, Baltimore (they play a hybrid), Steelers with proper technique and experience with their NT, etc. I'm guesssing 1/2 play a one gap and 1/2 play a two-gap. But of those one-gaps, I'm guessing they have at least one OLB pass rusher and don't use their TED as a defensive FB and blitz all gour LB's at a regular basis; they may have better d-lines and rotations too?

Originally posted by oldman9er:
- Franklin was said to have dropped down to about 308 last season. Looks like he just hits an A gap and hopes for the best. He still gets angled out of plays by single OL, and anchors poorly vs double teams.

No question about this one and I'm guessing teams have game planned to this (see Chiefs game); I'm sure he has his tendencies toward which gap he typically shoots too.

Originally posted by oldman9er:
- Our boys have speed to run the arc well, but struggle to battle OTs back inside.

True but we're still suspect in covering screens and struggle off tackle on reverses, end arounds, multi-purpose backs in Bush and esp. struggle (who doesn't) with speedy RB's (Chris Johnson).

Originally posted by oldman9er:
- I so agree with you on Manny and Justin, WtW.

Originally posted by oldman9er:
- Yes, NC, looks like Manusky did pick up a bad philosophy under Nolan/Sing. This 1-gap 3-4 would be stronger if Manusky wasn't so soft with it. Maybe he is stubborn to evolve into more aggressive styles, since our offense has not proven capable of consistently putting up points?

Last year, with ANY offense, I can understand playing a little conservative but this year, the offense is moving the ball and scoring points so we really should be pinning our ears back and employing a more exotic blitz scheme (IMHO) with the BEST pass rushers we have esp. given how suspect our secondary is; we need to play to their strengths, something Manusky has yet to do with the CB's.

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Basically a 4-3 D works by having the 2 DEs be pass rushers and the 2 DTs can be run stuffers but sometimes one of them can get after the QB like an Albert Haynesworth or Warren Sapp. The MLB has the 4 DL in front of him and the 2 big DTs right in front of him so he can play side to side and play the whole field. The LBs generally do not rush the passer very much.

In the 3-4, you have the 3 big DL whose main jobs are taking on blockers rather than beating one on one match ups. The OLBs are your pass rushers and you can send more blitzes because they don't know which of the 4 LBs is coming on a particular play. Schematically the 3-4 is superior but it is MUCH harder to find the personnel for. You need a huge 2 gapping NT who can demand a double team.

The problem with the 3-4 is we've tried to run it over the last 5 years or whatever and we still haven't found our pass rushing OLBs. Our NT Franklin is not a 2 gapper and he's not that big, he's only about 315-320. Our pass rushing OLBs aren't very good LBs, LaBoy and Haralson would probably both be better as DEs and Manny is not a pass rusher, he's your classic 4-3 OLB who can drop back in coverage or play the run. Justin Smith was a good pass rusher in the 4-3 as a 4-3 DE but in the 3-4 he's always doubled or playing the run. We just don't have the personnel for it and sticking with it is stupid and single minded.

1.thank you very much

now i try to answer my question about the prototypes by myself based on your explanations (correct me wherever you need to):
a)a NT is normally the biggest guy in the game...at least, he should be.
b)4-3 DEs are relatively versatile whereas 3-4 DEs are more similar to DTs than to OLBs.
c)ILBs should be stronger than MLBs b/c they meet RBs with a higher probability whereas MIKEs should be faster since they have to work in a bigger zone.

what about sam and will?

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by oldman9er:
- Our boys have speed to run the arc well, but struggle to battle OTs back inside.

True but we're still suspect in covering screens and struggle off tackle on reverses, end arounds, multi-purpose backs in Bush and esp. struggle (who doesn't) with speedy RB's (Chris Johnson).

Yes, we are seeing eye to eye on all of this. To add a thought to this individual part, Haralson is pretty undisciplined, and really so is Justin. They often commit so far inside the C gap, that they have no chance of recovering once they smell screen. Screens also work well since our CBs are playing off-coverage. So by the time the screen pass is in flight, our CB has his back to everything and is running with a WR away from the play direction. Our safety angles have often been poor also, leading to missed chances for tackles.

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by oldman9er:
- Our boys have speed to run the arc well, but struggle to battle OTs back inside.

True but we're still suspect in covering screens and struggle off tackle on reverses, end arounds, multi-purpose backs in Bush and esp. struggle (who doesn't) with speedy RB's (Chris Johnson).

Yes, we are seeing eye to eye on all of this. To add a thought to this individual part, Haralson is pretty undisciplined, and really so is Justin. They often commit so far inside the C gap, that they have no chance of recovering once they smell screen. Screens also work well since our CBs are playing off-coverage. So by the time the screen pass is in flight, our CB has his back to everything and is running with a WR away from the play direction. Our safety angles have often been poor also, leading to missed chances for tackles.

Yeah, I've seen that too! It's a catch 22. When you don't trust your OLB's to generate consistent pressure or don't have the blitz scheme to at least generate this pressure from your front 7, you play your CB's 15 yards off and hope they don't get beat deep, wear out the clock and tighen up in the red zone. (I guess). But like you mentioned, we get destroyed on screens, average QB's and WR's look like pro-bowlers, we don't generate TO's, ca't get off the field, don't give our offense many opportunities and generally crack esp. when it matters most. That's our reality and that is why this defense deserves equal blame with the offense...at least the offense has an excuse!

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by oldman9er:
- Our boys have speed to run the arc well, but struggle to battle OTs back inside.

True but we're still suspect in covering screens and struggle off tackle on reverses, end arounds, multi-purpose backs in Bush and esp. struggle (who doesn't) with speedy RB's (Chris Johnson).

Yes, we are seeing eye to eye on all of this. To add a thought to this individual part, Haralson is pretty undisciplined, and really so is Justin. They often commit so far inside the C gap, that they have no chance of recovering once they smell screen. Screens also work well since our CBs are playing off-coverage. So by the time the screen pass is in flight, our CB has his back to everything and is running with a WR away from the play direction. Our safety angles have often been poor also, leading to missed chances for tackles.

Yeah, I've seen that too! It's a catch 22. When you don't trust your OLB's to generate consistent pressure or don't have the blitz scheme to at least generate this pressure from your front 7, you play your CB's 15 yards off and hope they don't get beat deep, wear out the clock and tighen up in the red zone. (I guess). But like you mentioned, we get destroyed on screens, average QB's and WR's look like pro-bowlers, we don't generate TO's, ca't get off the field, don't give our offense many opportunities and generally crack esp. when it matters most. That's our reality and that is why this defense deserves equal blame with the offense...at least the offense has an excuse!

I'm starting to get the feeling that we are not generating interceptions because teams are playing it safe on us with an occasional trick play (safe if executed or not executed as planned).

It's getting apparent that teams are screening and dinking us to death realizing that we are not going to go for the jugular and end the game in the 2nd quarter. This is also a reason why they have difficulty against us in the red zone where they really can't dink anymore because our defense is playing tight.

They are waiting for us to beat ourselves. Yes, repeatedly biting on trick plays is beating ourselves.

RE-J. Smith
DT-Franklin
DT-McDonald
LE-Brooks

LOLB-Lawson
MLB-Willis
ROLB-Bowman

DISCLAIMER: DID NOT READ THREAD

3-4 vs. 4-3

Doesn't matter.

It's not the alignment, it's how you use it and your personnel.

/thread

Originally posted by prime21:
RE-J. Smith
DT-Franklin
DT-McDonald
LE-Brooks

LOLB-Lawson
MLB-Willis
ROLB-Bowman

/thread cancelled !

Perfect LB set-up, but 2 things on the DL...

- I would be concerned about the run stop abilities of McDonald + Brooks on the strong side... looks like trouble. Big reason why I'd flip your DEs.

- Would you really pay Franklin top dollar to stay, just so he could be our 4-3 NT?

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by prime21:
RE-J. Smith
DT-Franklin
DT-McDonald
LE-Brooks

LOLB-Lawson
MLB-Willis
ROLB-Bowman

/thread cancelled !

Perfect LB set-up, but 2 things on the DL...

- I would be concerned about the run stop abilities of McDonald + Brooks on the strong side... looks like trouble. Big reason why I'd flip your DEs.

- Would you really pay Franklin top dollar to stay, just so he could be our 4-3 NT?

The new coach will let Franklin walk and trade Spikes for a 4th rounder (hopefully). This will free up some money to sign a big FA (possible CB or FS) or invest it back into some of the current roster.

Can't wait for new coach. Much easier to make the switch from 3-4 to 4-3 than the other way.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by prime21:
RE-J. Smith
DT-Franklin
DT-McDonald
LE-Brooks

LOLB-Lawson
MLB-Willis
ROLB-Bowman

/thread cancelled !

Perfect LB set-up, but 2 things on the DL...

- I would be concerned about the run stop abilities of McDonald + Brooks on the strong side... looks like trouble. Big reason why I'd flip your DEs.

- Would you really pay Franklin top dollar to stay, just so he could be our 4-3 NT?

The new coach will let Franklin walk and trade Spikes for a 4th rounder (hopefully). This will free up some money to sign a big FA (possible CB or FS) or invest it back into some of the current roster.

Can't wait for new coach. Much easier to make the switch from 3-4 to 4-3 than the other way.

I don't think TKO is under contract to be traded. Would love for TKO to stay though. He has more value at this point as a 3-4 TED, but could still be an excellent role-playing LB in a 4-3. I think a new coach would and should let Franklin walk. I wouldn't pay him huge money in a 3-4 or 4-3 at this point. Money shouldn't be a big concern overall though.

Originally posted by prime21:
RE-J. Smith
DT-Franklin
DT-McDonald
LE-Brooks

LOLB-Lawson
MLB-Willis
ROLB-Bowman

I'd actually put Brooks on the left side due to him being quicker off the edge than Smith. That also could be argued to though. But even though I'm a bigger 3-4 fan, that set up looks good. On Nickel or dime situations, I'd move Smith to RDT and put LaBoy at RE.

Originally posted by Kolohe:

Originally posted by prime21:
RE-J. Smith
DT-Franklin
DT-McDonald
LE-Brooks

LOLB-Lawson
MLB-Willis
ROLB-Bowman

I'd actually put Brooks on the left side due to him being quicker off the edge than Smith. That also could be argued to though. But even though I'm a bigger 3-4 fan, that set up looks good. On Nickel or dime situations, I'd move Smith to RDT and put LaBoy at RE.

???? Your speed rusher is at RE, traditionally, as that is the weak side and most run plays go to the right side (LE) so your LE has to be the better run defender, like Smith. Teams would run all day at Brooks if he was at LE, as hed be very undersized.

Originally posted by jojomellon:

Originally posted by Kolohe:

Originally posted by prime21:
RE-J. Smith
DT-Franklin
DT-McDonald
LE-Brooks

LOLB-Lawson
MLB-Willis
ROLB-Bowman

I'd actually put Brooks on the left side due to him being quicker off the edge than Smith. That also could be argued to though. But even though I'm a bigger 3-4 fan, that set up looks good. On Nickel or dime situations, I'd move Smith to RDT and put LaBoy at RE.

???? Your speed rusher is at RE, traditionally, as that is the weak side and most run plays go to the right side (LE) so your LE has to be the better run defender, like Smith. Teams would run all day at Brooks if he was at LE, as hed be very undersized.

My bad, but that's what I meant, as Brooks is already on the left side in prime21's post.

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Basically a 4-3 D works by having the 2 DEs be pass rushers and the 2 DTs can be run stuffers but sometimes one of them can get after the QB like an Albert Haynesworth or Warren Sapp. The MLB has the 4 DL in front of him and the 2 big DTs right in front of him so he can play side to side and play the whole field. The LBs generally do not rush the passer very much.

Actually a better way to explain to those that do not understand is that the DT's in the 4-3 are either a left and right tackle or a nose and undertackle (or 3 technique) depending on the 4-3 scheme employed. The standard nowadays is that most teams employ a NT/UT on base downs and a left/right on passing downs but there are still teams to use a left/right in their base D. Their job is to to stuff the run and tie up the guards and center to free your linebackers up to make plays. On passing downs they shoot the gaps and try to collapse the pocket.