Originally posted by NYniner85:
Not for nothing but Lance's pressure rate was 50%, to put that in context only 5 other QBs had more so far this preseason.
Lol man, I'll agree and say he didn't do anyone any favors. He didn't play well…but how in the world can you judge anything or play football with that pressure rate? That's embarrassing for this team.
Because if TL really knew what he was doing he would have checked into plays to handle the pressure, or utilized the alerts call structure built into the plays, instead of looking like a deer in the headlights.
Originally posted by Hysterikal:
I hate that I'm agreeing with you but here we are.
People ignored that NDSU used him as a fullback that could throw. He was fast for the FCS but he was never going to be a guy that continually breaks off long runs in the NFL.
His kind of mobility is the least useful because he's not agile to enable him to shake loose of defenders in the backfield. He's clunky moving laterally, if he gets into the open field he can pick up yards in a hurry due to his stride but I think having the quickness and Shake and Bake to dodge defenders in the backfield is a lot more valuable for a quarterback. Its disconcerting how many times we've seen this mobile QB get run down by DLs from behind.
Really they drafted a slower, less experienced Kaepernick. I saw more out of O'Connell as a passer yesterday then I've seen from Lance at anytime.
Yeah I didn't understand how a DT caught him from behind as he was trying to escape. He's totally got those heavy feet. Luckily we have Purdy
This is the type of stuff that annoys me around here. People throw out blatant BS without a care in the world and others run with it without checking it.
There are many things to knock Trey for from yesterday but that "DT" that caught him from behind was a CB who runs a 4.5 40 and it wasn't from behind. Yes Trey probably should've thrown the ball away but it wouldn't shock me if he figured the guy wearing #56 was a slower player.
You right it was a linebacker who ran a 4.7 at his pro day sorry my mistake Trey played great
Brock would have able to get away with his elite 10 yard split.
Originally posted by Hysterikal:
I hate that I'm agreeing with you but here we are.
People ignored that NDSU used him as a fullback that could throw. He was fast for the FCS but he was never going to be a guy that continually breaks off long runs in the NFL.
His kind of mobility is the least useful because he's not agile to enable him to shake loose of defenders in the backfield. He's clunky moving laterally, if he gets into the open field he can pick up yards in a hurry due to his stride but I think having the quickness and Shake and Bake to dodge defenders in the backfield is a lot more valuable for a quarterback. Its disconcerting how many times we've seen this mobile QB get run down by DLs from behind.
Really they drafted a slower, less experienced Kaepernick. I saw more out of O'Connell as a passer yesterday then I've seen from Lance at anytime.
Yeah I didn't understand how a DT caught him from behind as he was trying to escape. He's totally got those heavy feet. Luckily we have Purdy
This is the type of stuff that annoys me around here. People throw out blatant BS without a care in the world and others run with it without checking it.
There are many things to knock Trey for from yesterday but that "DT" that caught him from behind was a CB who runs a 4.5 40 and it wasn't from behind. Yes Trey probably should've thrown the ball away but it wouldn't shock me if he figured the guy wearing #56 was a slower player.
You right it was a linebacker who ran a 4.7 at his pro day sorry my mistake Trey played great
4.5 but go ahead and brush it off like you weren't talking out your ass. I assure you him not playing great wasn't a result of that particular play.
Originally posted by NYniner85:
Not for nothing but Lance's pressure rate was 50%, to put that in context only 5 other QBs had more so far this preseason.
Lol man, I'll agree and say he didn't do anyone any favors. He didn't play well…but how in the world can you judge anything or play football with that pressure rate? That's embarrassing for this team.
too add onto that the highest pressure rate in 2022 was 28.6% for Russel Wilson.
What happens to your pressure rate as a QB if you are holding the ball and not unloading?
Exactly. Trey's TTT under pressure, that is the average time to throw before being pressured, was 3.87 seconds.
Greeny said "he had time to throw" based on exactly that, his TTT number
ESPN had the number a lil different, but point remains correct
Didn't really trust his eyes out there, took a lot of needless sacks
Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
This may be random, but in defense of TL, I don't know if I like the short quick game, that KS had on early in the game yesterday. That is not Trey's strength. I would have liked more play action, deep drop, use your arm talent stuff, also use your mobility. It's like KS was trying to ram a square peg, into a round hole. It's almost like TL needs a dif offense, or playcalls, than what we or KS likes to run. Does anyone else agree? Trey's strengths are not the same as Brock's.
There was a bunch of play actions, but Trey never pulled the trigger. Probably because we hadn't established a run game up to that point.
Yeah but go back to the very first play, it's quick lil short game stuff. It's not what he is good at, and he kinda got off on the wrong foot on that play, and downhill from there.
I have no problem calling all the short game stuff. That's where he needs live reps at, and where he needs the most improvement.
Agree, it's the nature of Kyle's offense. If he can't get that, despite being so physically talented, what good is that physical talent. He has to get it. I think he will. Steve Young went through YEARS of one-read-and-run-Steve, and it drove me nuts. But once Steve got it, he's in the hall of fame because of that physical talent with the mental development.
Originally posted by NYniner85:
Not for nothing but Lance's pressure rate was 50%, to put that in context only 5 other QBs had more so far this preseason.
Lol man, I'll agree and say he didn't do anyone any favors. He didn't play well…but how in the world can you judge anything or play football with that pressure rate? That's embarrassing for this team.
Because if TL really knew what he was doing he would have checked into plays to handle the pressure, or utilized the alerts call structure built into the plays, instead of looking like a deer in the headlights.
Like Brock Purdy did vs the Eagles?
Or when he got his ribs broken
But still manage to win games?? And perform like a franchise QB.
Originally posted by Cisco0623:
My question is, if Lance was given a season + to play would he improve and be the guy?
He'd have the chance he needs to do it, but it's not guaranteed it happens.
I just think it's inarguable he's not going to see the improvement we want without that kind of consistent playing time. We're in a lose-lose situation and Trey is going to take the brunt of it.
Originally posted by Silky:
I think if Lance sucks and we give up on him now, we will look back in 10 years from now and realize this kid never stood a chance. All of Purdy's starts were with the starters. We don't just have "starters" by the way, we have arguably the most talented skill players in the league in CMC, Deebo, Kittle, Aiyuk, Juice and some decent OLinemen. All of Lance's starts are either in the preseason with backups and people who won't make the team, in a monsoon, in Arizona when they were 7-0 and clearly playing their best football at the time (also a wtf gameplan), average against Houston, or coming off the bench to relieve Jimmy G because he was fragile.
How can you say "he ain't it" when all that is stacked against him? Plus Purdy playing well adds a mental dimension that we probably do not realize. All he's been hearing is "3 first rounders, high-ceiling, he better pan out for what they gave up for him, etc" and then Purdy (last pick of draft) comes in and actually does play well? That has to be demoralizing.
I'm really happy Purdy ripped off 9 wins in a row and I will support him or whoever the starter is. I think Purdy has earned it. But I won't sit here and s*it on Trey when none of this was his fault. As NY stated 50% pressure rate with backups in there. Its not like he could pop a screen to CMC or even Mitchell to take that pressure off. The negativity is ridiculous. Ultimately Shanahan and Co will make the decision (and I think we all know it will be Purdy), so why fret anyway. We should be supporting this kid.
You damn well know they won't support him. I was reading about Trey's almost 2nd INT and I had never hear of the guy that he was throwing the ball to.
I mean has he played this bad all through camp? Damn near every report say he was playing well…so what gives? It's not like they're not running the same s**t.
Originally posted by NYniner85:
Not for nothing but Lance's pressure rate was 50%, to put that in context only 5 other QBs had more so far this preseason.
Lol man, I'll agree and say he didn't do anyone any favors. He didn't play well…but how in the world can you judge anything or play football with that pressure rate? That's embarrassing for this team.
too add onto that the highest pressure rate in 2022 was 28.6% for Russel Wilson.
What happens to your pressure rate as a QB if you are holding the ball and not unloading?
Exactly. Trey's TTT under pressure, that is the average time to throw before being pressured, was 3.87 seconds.
Greeny said "he had time to throw" based on exactly that, his TTT number
ESPN had the number a lil different, but point remains correct
Didn't really trust his eyes out there, took a lot of needless sacks
The issue is people are bringing up plays where he made the right decision not to throw it then got sacked. It's also easy to sit back and say he should've made this throw but the same people saying that would've been on his ass if he threw it and DB came in for a pick on those plays.
Obviously he didn't look very good, not many QBs would have. It's foolish to think he wouldn't have played better if Trent, Banks, Brendel, Burford, McKivitz, Juszczyk, McCaffrey, Kittle, Deebo, Aiyuk, and Jennings had played.
I don't think Purdy would have played any better and that's the reason he didn't play.
Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
I said this yesterday and want to reiterate. Its clear that the game hasnt slowed down for him yet. I think the more and more he plays, the more it will. You could already see improvement in the 2nd quarter from the 1st.
Will Trey ever get the playing time needed to develop here? Probably not....or dare I say hopefully not? Regardless, my opinion on him hasnt changed a bit after yesterday. I still have no idea if he is going to be good or not. And honestly, no one else on this board does either.
Agree, nobody does, not even Kyle at this point. What I will say is that if he can stay on that improvement path from the Raider game, by the end of the preseason - if he continues that upward trend - he'll be a gem of a QB. Only time will tell though.
Originally posted by NYniner85:
You damn well know they won't support him. I was reading about Trey's almost 2nd INT and I had never hear of the guy that he was throwing the ball to.
I mean has he played this bad all through camp? Damn near every report say he was playing well…so what gives? It's not like they're not running the same s**t.
The reports just aren't trustworthy. Not only are we relying on the knowledge and just plain vision of the reporters, but they also don't necessarily know what each individual is looking to accomplish in their reps and what the coaches are asking for. Plus it's just different from playing in games, including preseason.
Originally posted by Afrikan:
First quick pass play, Trey did the right thing and took a sack. DB was sitting on it ready to jump the route.
Second quick pass play, Trey hesitated to hit the TE, in-between two defenders. He did have a WR running deep behind them for a huge gain. I wonder if that caught his attention. Eitherway he should have hit the TE to hopefully extend the drive and try again.
First pass play Trey did not do the right thing. The right thing would be looking to the route combination on the left (double stick). That is the route combination used to beat single high zone, which is what the Raiders were in. Instead, he looked to the right, which was a variation of Double Slants. It's a pick-a-side play. The left side was to beat single high, the right side was to beat two high. He looked to his right. It was the incorrect presnap read. Had he correctly looked to his left, he would see the open WR.
(all Lance plays)
Good point on pre-snap reads. I read an article once where they interviewed Joe Montana. He basically said, pre-snap, he could correctly read the defensive coverage 90% of the time. Trey is nowhere near - even - 50%. Brock, I think is in the 70+% range.
Originally posted by Giedi:
Welp, I re-watched all the Trey Lance passes. First couple of series he was RUSty! Yuk. Yeah he didn't have the greatest OLine protection either. But the latter throws were pretty good. Clearly he needs more reps, but as QB2 he's not going to get starter reps that he needs to progress faster. His progress will be slow - but there has been progress that I can see. I think the latter half of the passes he threw were more of a realistic place where he is right now versus the first couple of passes. He did progress and settle down, after those first couple of sacks.
Criticisms - he's still taking too much time reading the defenses. That needs to improve. He doesn't have the short area burst that Brock has to get away from defenders. Those short passes are still getting away from him.
Positives - better mechanics, when he does see the window - great arm to get it there, and good placement and accuracy to get it there. He eventually threw some completed short passes and he definitely has better touch that his first year on those short throws. When he correctly recognizes the pocket is collapsing, he does have the mobility to move out and throw on the run.
I wouldn't put much stock in his first game performance after being injured, and he is still raw as heck for his career. He's only played 4+ games in his entire career in the NFL. If he stays healthy and continues to improve, like in the latter half of his throws - he'll be good. I'll want to see more improvement in his second game. I want him to start off strong in his second game next week. Hopefully I'll see less of the deer in the headlights stuff. If his mental side improves, we'll have a good QB. If not, obviously, he won't be here long.
Good points. He looked better as the game went on so that's a trend that continued, and a good sign for a young QB. Watching it live yesterday, I forgot that he isn't going to flip a switch and be accustomed to game speed, even if it was second string defense game speed. He needed to reacquaint himself to facing live bullets and although it took three drives, it did look better towards the end of the first half. He'll need to take baby steps.
I agree with everything you said. With what we've seen so far (and that's not a lot) it seems clear that Lance isn't comfortable taking a 2 step drop and throwing from the pocket. For what ever reason that's just not what he does well at this point. He may never be able to do it well. On the other hand he does seem to throw better when he rolls out so why don't they roll out more. His speed is clearly much better than his quickness which is one reason he's getting caught in the pocket.
Unfortunately most of Kyle's offense is built around the running game and short quick passes. At least that's what we've see for the past few years. Purdy, JG and Mullens were all pocket passer with limited mobility. The only QB that Kyle's had other than Lance that had mobility and a strong arm was Beathard and we know how that ended up.
But wasn't the argument strongly made for taking Lance over the other available QBs like Fields, was that Lance played in a pro style offense under center that has some of the same concepts that Kyle Shanahan uses? All we read and heard was Trey Lance would be the most pro ready QB to have success, more so than Fields. Bottom line is Trey Lance does not deserve to have excuses made for him at this point. That is not a knock on him just truth. His failures ultimately lies with York, Lynch, Peters, and Shanahan for tripping over themselves wanting to take a guy that really was not a fit for a Super Bowl contender.
No, my recollection was that Mac was the most pro-ready while Trey was the most Raw and needed a lot of developmental work.
Kyle's offense is gaining popularity in college, but the speed of college and the NFL is night and day. You have to have a certain kind of processing speed to make it in the NFL. Not very many can. It's like doing a Rubik's cube puzzle. Some people can do it in under 2 minutes, most never can, that's why they get paid MILLIONS to play in the NFL.
