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Los Angeles Chargers QB Trey Lance Thread

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Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Originally posted by NYniner85:
Originally posted by Strwy2Hevn:
Originally posted by NinerBuff:
Originally posted by Strwy2Hevn:
Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
Putting the guy on mute and not engaging with the lying, misrepresentation, backpedaling and illogical posts has been one of the best things I have done on this board.

Why I just laugh at JRG. Kinda sad he can't just hump Jimmy on his original account. Lol

That's who Ribs is… oh it makes sense now.

Yea he gave himself up in Parking lot per Rubs and Phoenix.

Knew it.
i thought it was Treyallday (something like that)
Lol, if you can't win a conversation call someone an alt.

Great stuff guys.
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Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Originally posted by NYniner85:
Originally posted by Strwy2Hevn:
Originally posted by NinerBuff:
Originally posted by Strwy2Hevn:
Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
Putting the guy on mute and not engaging with the lying, misrepresentation, backpedaling and illogical posts has been one of the best things I have done on this board.

Why I just laugh at JRG. Kinda sad he can't just hump Jimmy on his original account. Lol

That's who Ribs is… oh it makes sense now.

Yea he gave himself up in Parking lot per Rubs and Phoenix.

Knew it.
i thought it was Treyallday (something like that)

Nah. Mods confirmed JRG.
  • thl408
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 33,287
I bet DeShaun Watson is good at touch passes.
Originally posted by RackofRibs49:
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Originally posted by NYniner85:
Originally posted by Strwy2Hevn:
Originally posted by NinerBuff:
Originally posted by Strwy2Hevn:
Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
Putting the guy on mute and not engaging with the lying, misrepresentation, backpedaling and illogical posts has been one of the best things I have done on this board.

Why I just laugh at JRG. Kinda sad he can't just hump Jimmy on his original account. Lol

That's who Ribs is… oh it makes sense now.

Yea he gave himself up in Parking lot per Rubs and Phoenix.

Knew it.
i thought it was Treyallday (something like that)
Lol, if you can't win a conversation call someone an alt.

Great stuff guys.
lol, you've lost so much.. you don't know what winning is..
Originally posted by thl408:
I bet DeShaun Watson is good at touch passes.
but isn't he doing the receiving ?
Originally posted by 49ersRing:
Originally posted by JoseCortez:
Originally posted by YACBros85:
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
Originally posted by RackofRibs49:
Originally posted by YACBros85:
When Trey proves all his doubters wrong, please continue to hate. Don't eat crow. Don't pretend like you were a fan long before he succeeded. Just continue to hate.
What is your definition of succeeding exactly? What is a successful season this year?

While I do agree with your sentiment, I'm just not sure what you consider successful? Super Bowl appearance? 2 NFCC in 3 years? Good stats? 3rd leading win percentage in the NFL? What is your measurement of success?

We know a guy who can do that.

Jimmy is an 8 year vet. Trey is a 1st year starter. You cannot reasonably have the same expectations for both. Handing Jimmy the job because of past accomplishments because your young QB is an unkown only prolongs the inevitable. I wouldn't call us a SB calibre team with or without Jimmy. We were damn lucky to make the playoffs and even luckier that our defense and special teams stepped up in the playoffs or this wouldn't even be a debate.

Yes he's an 8 year vet, but he sat for more than half of that, either behind Brady or due to injuries. People sort of lose sight of this. And in his first full year starting they Make the superbowl. Guys on her talking about how Trey needs snaps to improve, so let's look at jimmys ACTUAL starting snaps before he got to the superbowl.

As has been said by at least one esteemed NFL expert, Jimmy is the guy in the group project that does none of the work, but still tries to take credit for it.

b******t. Without Jimmy we don't sniff the playoffs either year. You unobjective asshats are hilarious with your fixation for hating the guy who helped get us to a Superbowl and an NFC championship. Quoting that Seahawk-loving click bait dumbass Mina Kimes doesn't lend to your credibility either.
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by NYniner85:
We ALL know why you brought up Mac. You got a boner for him. Go get you McCorkle love on elsewhere.

yeah overall Mahomes wasn't as good as he's been in the past. He still made those BTT when It was needed. Not against the Jets.

I brought him up because he fit your own criteria of IAY & completion %. As for Mahomes and BTT


PFF annual has Jones as 15th overall in BTT and 7th overall in turnover worth throws.


yeah if it was all about fitting a situation, why not toss out Joe Burrow? We know why you haven't made it a secret.
[ Edited by NYniner85 on Jun 3, 2022 at 12:42 PM ]
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by 49ersRing:
Originally posted by JoseCortez:
Originally posted by YACBros85:
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
Originally posted by RackofRibs49:
Originally posted by YACBros85:
When Trey proves all his doubters wrong, please continue to hate. Don't eat crow. Don't pretend like you were a fan long before he succeeded. Just continue to hate.
What is your definition of succeeding exactly? What is a successful season this year?

While I do agree with your sentiment, I'm just not sure what you consider successful? Super Bowl appearance? 2 NFCC in 3 years? Good stats? 3rd leading win percentage in the NFL? What is your measurement of success?

We know a guy who can do that.

Jimmy is an 8 year vet. Trey is a 1st year starter. You cannot reasonably have the same expectations for both. Handing Jimmy the job because of past accomplishments because your young QB is an unkown only prolongs the inevitable. I wouldn't call us a SB calibre team with or without Jimmy. We were damn lucky to make the playoffs and even luckier that our defense and special teams stepped up in the playoffs or this wouldn't even be a debate.

Yes he's an 8 year vet, but he sat for more than half of that, either behind Brady or due to injuries. People sort of lose sight of this. And in his first full year starting they Make the superbowl. Guys on her talking about how Trey needs snaps to improve, so let's look at jimmys ACTUAL starting snaps before he got to the superbowl.

As has been said by at least one esteemed NFL expert, Jimmy is the guy in the group project that does none of the work, but still tries to take credit for it.

b******t. Without Jimmy we don't sniff the playoffs either year. You unobjective asshats are hilarious with your fixation for hating the guy who helped get us to a Superbowl and an NFC championship. Quoting that Seahawk-loving click bait dumbass Mina Kimes doesn't lend to your credibility either.

In 2019, I agree with you. We wouldn't have made the playoffs if it weren't for Jimmy. Since we know what his backups are and aren't capable of. However, it is not being objective to say that we wouldn't have made the playoffs if it weren't for Jimmy in 2021. 1) Trey won a must win game late in the season when an often injured Jimmy was injured yet again. 2) No one can objectively say we would not have made the playoffs if Trey was given the starting job from day 1 of OTA's.
[ Edited by YACBros85 on Jun 3, 2022 at 12:48 PM ]
  • thl408
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 33,287
Originally posted by NYniner85:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by NYniner85:
We ALL know why you brought up Mac. You got a boner for him. Go get you McCorkle love on elsewhere.

yeah overall Mahomes wasn't as good as he's been in the past. He still made those BTT when It was needed. Not against the Jets.

I brought him up because he fit your own criteria of IAY & completion %. As for Mahomes and BTT


PFF annual has Jones as 15th overall in BTT and 7th overall in turnover worth throws.


yeah if it was all about fitting a situation, why not toss out Joe Burrow? We know why you haven't made it a secret.

NY can you paste me this article? Really interested in the quantitative stats here but I don't have a subscription.
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-seth-galina-quarters-revolution-is-coming-nfl-offensive-schemes
  • krizay
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 26,418
Originally posted by NYniner85:
PFF annual has Jones as 15th overall in BTT and 7th overall in turnover worth throws.


yeah if it was all about fitting a situation, why not toss out Joe Burrow? We know why you haven't made it a secret.

While I do like Mac Jones. My post was more about you not liking a player that fits your own arbitrary numbers.
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by 49ersRing:
Originally posted by JoseCortez:
Originally posted by YACBros85:
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
Originally posted by RackofRibs49:
Originally posted by YACBros85:
When Trey proves all his doubters wrong, please continue to hate. Don't eat crow. Don't pretend like you were a fan long before he succeeded. Just continue to hate.
What is your definition of succeeding exactly? What is a successful season this year?

While I do agree with your sentiment, I'm just not sure what you consider successful? Super Bowl appearance? 2 NFCC in 3 years? Good stats? 3rd leading win percentage in the NFL? What is your measurement of success?

We know a guy who can do that.

Jimmy is an 8 year vet. Trey is a 1st year starter. You cannot reasonably have the same expectations for both. Handing Jimmy the job because of past accomplishments because your young QB is an unkown only prolongs the inevitable. I wouldn't call us a SB calibre team with or without Jimmy. We were damn lucky to make the playoffs and even luckier that our defense and special teams stepped up in the playoffs or this wouldn't even be a debate.

Yes he's an 8 year vet, but he sat for more than half of that, either behind Brady or due to injuries. People sort of lose sight of this. And in his first full year starting they Make the superbowl. Guys on her talking about how Trey needs snaps to improve, so let's look at jimmys ACTUAL starting snaps before he got to the superbowl.

As has been said by at least one esteemed NFL expert, Jimmy is the guy in the group project that does none of the work, but still tries to take credit for it.

b******t. Without Jimmy we don't sniff the playoffs either year. You unobjective asshats are hilarious with your fixation for hating the guy who helped get us to a Superbowl and an NFC championship. Quoting that Seahawk-loving click bait dumbass Mina Kimes doesn't lend to your credibility either.

I'm perfectly objective. Jimmy's stats in the playoffs speak for themself. He was not a major contributor to the success of the team.
Originally posted by thl408:
NY can you paste me this article? Really interested in the quantitative stats here but I don't have a subscription.
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-seth-galina-quarters-revolution-is-coming-nfl-offensive-schemes

The revolution is coming.

After a decade of living in a Cover 3 world, change is inevitable. As offenses start to figure out how to consistently beat the defense that most of the league is playing, defenses will have no choice but to adjust.

[Editor's Note: PFF's advanced statistics and player grades are powered by AWS machine learning capabilities.]

In an ideal world, the evolution of defense will be toward a purely man-coverage scheme — our guys against your guys. Though that's not always the best practice when your guys can't stick to their guys, and that has been true for however long the forward pass has been around.

Defenses have always needed a zone counterpart to their man-coverage schemes. The league went from the Cover 2/Tampa 2 defenses of the 2000s to the Cover 3 defenses of the 2010s, and now we might be on the precipice of the "Quarters" revolution in the NFL.

College football has unleashed the quarters revolution in response to the spread effect for almost two decades now, but it hasn't hit the NFL level at quite the extent.

Just in Big 12 conference games over the last two seasons, defenses ran quarters on 36% of passing snaps on first and second downs. You would have thought that number would have been higher in the 2005-15 period, as the Big 12 was popular for its quarters defense, but the conference has actually been at the forefront of shifting away from quarters in recent years.

Still, that 36% number is much higher than the NFL's 19% of snaps in quarters coverage on early downs over the last six seasons. The lowest number of snaps in quarters came in 2015 (17.7%), while the highest over those six years was in 2016 (20.2%). There has neither been a big fluctuation nor a year-by-year increase.

While the league hasn't shown an incredible increase in usage over the past six seasons — I believe we would see a bigger increase if we had charting data pre-2014 — some individual teams have shown more quarters than others. In 2019, the Raiders, Vikings and Texans played over 30% of their defensive snaps in quarters on early downs, while Cover 3 holdovers such as the Falcons (via Dan Quinn's time in Seattle) and Cowboys (via Kris Richard's time in Seattle) make up the bottom two teams in usage.

We use early downs here because third-down coverages can get funky sometimes, and we want to see what teams are up to when they can't just sell out against the pass and have to worry about a run play being called.

I've previously written about how teams should be playing more two-high zone coveragesbecause individual teams do about as well stopping the run in two-high as they do in single-high. This article was about how defenses can stop the run with the extra box defender that single-high defenses afford. For this piece, however, we'll look at how NFL teams play quarters in the passing game and how it will have to evolve a bit to become more robust for increased usage.

In our current Cover 3 world, offenses have adapted to counter that zone defense. There have been 159 team seasons over the last five seasons where a team played over 25 passing snaps in Cover 3 on early downs, and 108 of them allowed a positive EPA per play mark over the season.

"Quarters" means there are four deep zone defenders, and it's why the name is mostly interchangeable with the term "Cover 4."

The cornerbacks and the two safeties are generally the four deep players. The two outside linebackers — for the purpose of this exercise, the nickelback is an outside linebacker, as he is the old Sam linebacker — are the flat defenders. The Mike linebacker is the middle hook player.

The four deep defenders are in red, the two flat defenders in yellow, the middle hook is green.

The litmus test to identify a quarters coverage is when an offense runs the "4 Verts" play. If four players cover the four vertical runners, then it's probably quarters. With that said, there is an almost infinite way that the defense can choose to distribute who covers whom. For the most part, NFL defenses do this in one way. This is where the evolution must occur, as the trendline for quarters starts to move upward. There need to be more answers.

The NFL loves to have their zone defenders be "spot droppers." This means the defender will get to his hustle and then look at the quarterback to break on a thrown pass. Some people call this "visioning the quarterback."

You can see in the above clip that the Minnesota Vikings are showing a classic two-high, 4-3 defense look and will end up playing a quarters coverage variant. Besides the flat defender on the bottom of the screen, everyone is opening up and looking at the quarterback before looking to break on the ball. The ball is forced to the flat area, which is where the defense wants the ball thrown.

Here (below) is another example, where every Panther drops into their zone and then visions the quarterback.

NFL teams have a couple of zone variants that they like to use often enough. The first is "palms," which is also known as "two-read" or just "trap." This tells the cornerback that if the slot receiver runs to an out-breaking pattern underneath a certain depth — this could be decided on a week-to-week basis — he is to jump that route from the outside in.

This (above) is a great example from former Raider Gareon Conley. He takes a couple of steps backward, but he breaks on the throw once he sees the Broncos receiver turn outside within 5 yards of the line of scrimmage. Even though the ball is caught, there is no chance for any yards after the catch up the sideline, which is what offenses want against Cover 4 teams.

Another technique quarters teams like to use is called "poach." Against trips formations, the safety who is to the one-receiver side will turn and look back to the three-receiver side and try to cut off any vertical-bending route to his side.

The San Francisco 49ers used this idea quite a bit against the Kansas City Chiefs in the Superbowl.

The "weak" safety turns and looks to the three-receiver side right on the snap and is in a position to jump the route that comes across the field.

I believe that the athletic ability and intelligence of the modern NFL defender allow pro defenses to get away with this all the time. Yes, they're dropping to their zone, but they can also react faster. The good ones also understand what route concepts they are likely to get in a given situation.

The defenders might be athletic and smart, but the quarterbacks on the other side — even the bad ones, if we're quite honest — are so good at finding the holes where defenders are not. Playing the coverage as a changeup and only doing it even 30% on the high end means teams can probably get away with this.

When the revolution happens, teams are going to need more ways to skin the cat — the results from what teams are currently doing to stick with the spot-dropping defense simply aren't good enough. Of the 142 team seasons where a defense played quarters on over 25 passing snaps on early downs, 100 allowed a positive EPA per play figure.

Defenses are going to have to start running more match-style zone defenses to keep up. Let's take a look at Nick Saban's Alabama defense for clues.

You can see the underneath defenders turn and find the receivers to cover. Watch the switch between the sam linebacker and the mike linebacker on the top when the running back flares out to the flat. The mike pushes the sam out to cover the running back while the mike sticks to the slot receiver. Contrast that to the Vikings-Falcons clip above. The same push happens, only the mike linebacker still zones off instead of sticking man-to-man.

This matching style is not seen that much in the NFL. In fact, the Panthers, who played the most quarters snaps against 2×2 formations on early downs last year, spot-dropped on all of them.

Match-style two-high defenses are certainly not a way to magically make completions disappear, but it does act as a fine changeup once teams start hitting that 40% quarters mark that should be coming within the next five seasons.

The positive of this type of defense is that everyone ends up covering someone — no defender ends up "covering grass," so to speak. The flipside is that you can find yourself with linebackers covering players who are much quicker than them, and you can bet NFL coaches don't see that as a winning business model.

The safeties also have to start at a lower depth, and you can see just how low both safeties are in the Alabama clip. Because the underneath defenders can get pulled away from the middle of the field, the safeties have to be able to sit and drive on intermediate in-breaking routes without underneath cover. Again, the NFL might not think that playing safeties that low against the world-class speed at the slot receiver position is a winning business model.

Just as Cover 3 defenses have evolved to include match defenses, so too must quarters looks. There are so many more match-quarters variants than there are Cover 3-match variants, so defenses can keep the offense at bay at least schematically.

The next evolution of defense is coming, and we are most likely only a few years from entering the quarters bubble. When we get there, teams must continually evolve to keep offenses guessing as to where exactly the individual defenders will end up based on the distribution of the receiver routes.

there's some clips but I can't post those
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by 49ersRing:
Originally posted by JoseCortez:
Originally posted by YACBros85:
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
Originally posted by RackofRibs49:
Originally posted by YACBros85:
When Trey proves all his doubters wrong, please continue to hate. Don't eat crow. Don't pretend like you were a fan long before he succeeded. Just continue to hate.
What is your definition of succeeding exactly? What is a successful season this year?

While I do agree with your sentiment, I'm just not sure what you consider successful? Super Bowl appearance? 2 NFCC in 3 years? Good stats? 3rd leading win percentage in the NFL? What is your measurement of success?

We know a guy who can do that.

Jimmy is an 8 year vet. Trey is a 1st year starter. You cannot reasonably have the same expectations for both. Handing Jimmy the job because of past accomplishments because your young QB is an unkown only prolongs the inevitable. I wouldn't call us a SB calibre team with or without Jimmy. We were damn lucky to make the playoffs and even luckier that our defense and special teams stepped up in the playoffs or this wouldn't even be a debate.

Yes he's an 8 year vet, but he sat for more than half of that, either behind Brady or due to injuries. People sort of lose sight of this. And in his first full year starting they Make the superbowl. Guys on her talking about how Trey needs snaps to improve, so let's look at jimmys ACTUAL starting snaps before he got to the superbowl.

As has been said by at least one esteemed NFL expert, Jimmy is the guy in the group project that does none of the work, but still tries to take credit for it.

b******t. Without Jimmy we don't sniff the playoffs either year. You unobjective asshats are hilarious with your fixation for hating the guy who helped get us to a Superbowl and an NFC championship. Quoting that Seahawk-loving click bait dumbass Mina Kimes doesn't lend to your credibility either.
They would have made the playoffs last year with either Trey or Mac Jones (Trey's the better long term prospect).

Wish Trey would have taken his lumps last year so the team would have better odds at #6 this year.

Jimmy brought leadership, mental toughness, and helped instill a winning culture, but however good he is, it's not good enough to win the big one.

He's maligned by a portion of the fanbase because they want to move on to the better option and hardcore Jimmy fans, national media, and Lynch won't let that happen, thus the vitriol and dirt thrown on Jimmy's name.
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by NYniner85:
PFF annual has Jones as 15th overall in BTT and 7th overall in turnover worth throws.


yeah if it was all about fitting a situation, why not toss out Joe Burrow? We know why you haven't made it a secret.

While I do like Mac Jones. My post was more about you not liking a player that fits your own arbitrary numbers.

You never agree with me on most things…to think you would agree with what numbers I value, well that would be shocking to say the least. You won't admit it but you go out of your way to find any way to disagree with me (play devils advocate) or prove me wrong about most things in here. At this point it doesn't bother me, I expect it.

oh and just make sure to double check data when you want to try and prove someone wrong
[ Edited by NYniner85 on Jun 3, 2022 at 1:14 PM ]
  • thl408
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 33,287
Originally posted by NYniner85:
The revolution is coming.
.....
The safeties also have to start at a lower depth, and you can see just how low both safeties are in the Alabama clip. Because the underneath defenders can get pulled away from the middle of the field, the safeties have to be able to sit and drive on intermediate in-breaking routes without underneath cover. Again, the NFL might not think that playing safeties that low against the world-class speed at the slot receiver position is a winning business model.

Just as Cover 3 defenses have evolved to include match defenses, so too must quarters looks. There are so many more match-quarters variants than there are Cover 3-match variants, so defenses can keep the offense at bay at least schematically.

The next evolution of defense is coming, and we are most likely only a few years from entering the quarters bubble. When we get there, teams must continually evolve to keep offenses guessing as to where exactly the individual defenders will end up based on the distribution of the receiver routes.

there's some clips but I can't post those

Thanks NY. The bolded part I just alluded to this morning in the "Will the offense be different with Lance" in reference to the Danny Gray selection.
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