Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Originally posted by TheRickestRick:
Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Yeah no. Allen was a natural thrower of the football in college. Lance wasn't, not to that degree.
And you can say I'm "so off it's almost like" whatever, but unlike you, I was making threads in the official 49ers forums about how the 49ers should draft him, and you were thinking he was a bust. Just like with Mahomes. So while I'll keep being right about QBs, you can keep being wrong and then tell me how off I was, and I just got lucky because the guys I knew would be great "dramatically improved" (which, by the way, is just excuses people use as an excuse for how terribly they whiffed on these future Hall of Famers who were as obvious as the sun to me).
I mean, 1:24 tells you why this guy was going to be really good: the angle, the arc, the suddenness, throwing without his feet yet still accurate, under pressure. 1 in 10 guys do this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTuKHNz9vbA&ab_channel=JustBombsProductions
Look how effortless that throw was (at 1:24). That's talent you can't teach. And for every "Ryan Leaf" or "Jamarcus Russell" comment, they're all missing the fact that the NFL is different. The vetting is different. And if someone has THAT kind of talent, and that kind of character, it's definitely better odds than a crapshoot. In cases like this, the problem is looking past your expectations and raw stats. Look at how they respond to pressure. Look at the way they throw the ball from different angles. Look at how they see guys most guys don't. It's hard to put into words, but you can't go wrong drafting Superman prospects unless you get lazy on the character evaluation.
EDIT: Bottom line: you can teach pocket passing. You can't teach arm talent.
EDIT2: Oh, you seem to believe I'm a Lance critic. LOL no. I'm just pointing out that Allen is a special, special player. If Lance picks up the quick game, he's going to be top 10 easy.
My whole point is you talked about their physical stature but completely ignore athleticism. Talked about mechanics but acted like Allen's were somehow polished even though he had to change allot of his motion to become more accurate. Doesn't sound like a natural thrower to me. They both come out of college raw, but you keep looking at the Allen of now when back then he was one of the top projects of the draft, more so than Lance.
i don't think you're a Lance hater by any means, we all want him to succeed. But at the moment of coming out of college, Saying that allen was unequivocally a better prospect than Lance coming out is comparing the Allen of now vs who he actually was coming out of college.
The problem with Allen from what I saw was that he was all arm. So yeah, he was a natural thrower. He had to learn to fix his feet and use them properly—overstriding and such.
And no, I'm not comparing Allen of now versus Lance of then. I really, genuinely had my doubts about Lance (that he could be great). It was actually his attitude and intangibles that convinced me he had what it took to fix these doubts (these are why I got on the Lance bandwagon in the last month before the draft: what is between his ears). Here are those doubts I had:
(1) He hesitated quite a lot in college (still did it in the NFL on run plays), as if he was trying to double and triple check that there were no defenders lurking. Works great in college, because passing windows are giant. Not so much in the NFL.
(2) He had a tendency to try to avoid throwing if a defender was in his line of sight, even if simply feathering it over was possible.
(3) He had a bob in his motion that made his accuracy somewhat erratic.
(4) He didn't have that lightning quick reaction guys like Mahomes did in college when it comes to the quick game (see it, IMMEDIATELY throw it with no wasted motion).
Good news: to an extent he improved every one of those from day 1 to the Texans game.
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Allen? Allen showed every pass a great QB would ever need. You'll see them in that highlight video I posted. He was sometimes erratic, sure. But that's the kind of thing rookie QBs grow out of if they are in the right spot and have the right attitude. His biggest problem, from I could tell then, aside from some inconsistent footwork, was that he was a "see it, throw it" QB (like Kaepernick was). Having to see the guy open out of his break. Not often an anticipatory thrower. But the throwing itself? Nah, I didn't have many problems with it. Just a little inconsistent.
I just can't honestly take the idea serious that Allen did not have a superior passing ability to Trey in college. Allen had everything in his box in terms of the arm. He had that flick of the wrist, that can feather it, but also that rocket launcher as well.
Ok if it's just "pure arm" then yes Allen has the edge… but we originally were talking overall prospect. But it was no secret Allen's pure arm was inaccurate as f*ck allot of the time but on the passes he did nail showed the potential he had if he could clean up his mechanics which were dogsh*t.
I don't need to write a novel to say as an overall prospect Lance has enough arm talent and more accuracy coming out. Along with the athletic ability to punish defenses in today's game. You keep changing the goalposts to suit your argument since now it's just about "arm talent" apparently not overall prospect. They both have great arms, they both need to fix their mechanics coming out, one just has more athletic ability than the other. It's that simple. Trying to move the goalposts when we are talking overall prospect is pointless.
Coming out of college, Lance has the arm and legs, Allen has the arm… if it was so talented why does he statistically look like an average Qb. Wyoming wasn't playing in the SEC or powerhouses every week lol. He was big, athletic for his size and had a rocket. Lance has all those and can run a 4.5 with moves like a RB in a league where midget Wilson and Lamar Jackson are showing that can be a huge difference in potential ceilings.
