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JAGZ' TOM COUGHLIN

  • 9moon
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 9,420
Originally posted by lamontb:
No team is trading up for Herbert

EXACTLY what everyone once thought of a BAD idea to trade up for...

GOFF
WENTZ
MAHOMES
TRUBISKY

.. One thing we should ALL be aware about in TODAY's draft is that TEAM(S) will move up to land the player they want..
  • dj43
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 28,818
Originally posted by lamontb:
No team is trading up for Herbert

If we look at the current draft order, none of the first four teams need a QB. The Giants are #5 and will certainly take Herbert unless he bombs out at the combine. Then comes the Jags and another four teams that don't need a QB.

All of that to say that the possibility of the 49ers trading back with any of the QB-needy teams is just non-existent. The only trade-up scenario for a QB that I could envision for the Jags is to deal with the Jets at #4 just to beat the Giants to Herbert. Would that possibility lead to a domino effect of going even higher? I doubt it but it could lead to some interesting rumors.

You heard it here first...
Jags should trade for Flaco. Good bridge
[ Edited by ziggy_gonna_rock on Nov 28, 2018 at 4:09 PM ]
  • Garce
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 49,302
Jagz?
Originally posted by Garce:
Jagz?

Seachikkenz
Faderzz
Ramzzz

ITS FUNNY CUZ THE NAMES R CHANGED!!1!
Originally posted by 9moon:
Coughlin knows that the team is very much talented and regressed due to the play of Bortles.

I really dont agree with this at all. The Jags are not losing this year because of Bortles. They won last year in spite of Bortles. It isnt as if Bortles balled out last year and was the reason the Jags were good. He was bad last year too. His stats on the season this year are essentially the same as they were last year.

Passer Rating: 84.7 (2017), 81.9 (2018)

Yards: 230/game (2017), 234/game (2018)

Touchdowns: 1.3/game (2017), 1.2/game (2018)

Interceptions: 0.8/game (2017), 0.9/game (2018)

Completion %: 60.2% (2017), 60.4% (2018)

As you can see, the statistical output from 2017 to 2018 is almost identical. So for someone to attribute the Jags decline to Blake regressing is basically scapegoating him. Bortles wasnt the reason the Jags were good in 2017, and he certainly isnt the reason the Jags are bad in 2018.

I dont have a problem with the Jags trying to move on, as I dont think Bortles is very good at all. I have a problem with people claiming he is the reason the Jags suck this year. He isnt.
Originally posted by lamontb:
No team is trading up for Herbert

Never say never when it comes to QBs. Demand always outpaces supply.
  • dj43
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 28,818
Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
Originally posted by 9moon:
Coughlin knows that the team is very much talented and regressed due to the play of Bortles.

I really dont agree with this at all. The Jags are not losing this year because of Bortles. They won last year in spite of Bortles. It isnt as if Bortles balled out last year and was the reason the Jags were good. He was bad last year too. His stats on the season this year are essentially the same as they were last year.

Passer Rating: 84.7 (2017), 81.9 (2018)

Yards: 230/game (2017), 234/game (2018)

Touchdowns: 1.3/game (2017), 1.2/game (2018)

Interceptions: 0.8/game (2017), 0.9/game (2018)

Completion %: 60.2% (2017), 60.4% (2018)

As you can see, the statistical output from 2017 to 2018 is almost identical. So for someone to attribute the Jags decline to Blake regressing is basically scapegoating him. Bortles wasnt the reason the Jags were good in 2017, and he certainly isnt the reason the Jags are bad in 2018.

I dont have a problem with the Jags trying to move on, as I dont think Bortles is very good at all. I have a problem with people claiming he is the reason the Jags suck this year. He isnt.

eh, he is a main reason they are not doing well this season.

The problem is his crazy inconsistency. Last season he had 5 games with QB ratings over 119 with a high of 143, but he also had three games where his rating was less than 53!

This season he has three games all right around 112 and all the rest are between 46 and 72 with the exception of an 88 against the Eagles. By any standard, that makes him a major culprit in their decline. Not the only one, perhaps, but when your QB is going poorly, it impacts the rest of the team. Looking at body language of the defense when they have to go back on the field after another 3-and-out tells you they are not happy with the offense.

Statistically the defense is worse this season but a large part of that is due to the offense not being able to maintain possession.
I reread what I wrote and realize that came off differently than I meant it to. Yes, Bortles ia a big reason why the Jags arent doing well...because he is a crazy inconsistent quarterback (as you illustrated). And his lows are very very low. But again, this is no different than last year. You said he had five really good games, and this year he has had three. Inconsistent both times. Last year the Jags were able to overcome Bortles shortcomings. This year they are not. The difference hasnt really been his play.

I wasnt trying to defend Bortles. He is a really bad quarterback.
[ Edited by SteveWallacesHelmet on Nov 28, 2018 at 10:22 PM ]
Originally posted by lamontb:
No team is trading up for Herbert

Should a team trade up for Herbert? Probably not. But will a team trade up for Herbert? Possibly.

At the end of the day the quarterback position is perceived to be the most important on the field. When you don't have your franchise quarterback, teams will always be looking at ways to acquire one, and at times they are going to clutch at straws and gamble their future on someone that potentially they shouldn't gamble on. Job security in this league is not amazing. Head coaches have been fired after one season. GMs have been fired not too long into their tenure. So if a head coach and/or GM are on shaky ground, and their team needs a QB to turn around their fortunes, then those teams are not going to sit back and wait until 2020 (or whenever) because there is a very good chance they won't be around to make those selections in 2020 if their 2019 season replicates their 2018 season due to the lack of a QB. Drafting a QB perceived to be the future of the franchise can give them more time, or at least give them a better shot at holding onto their jobs. Now we as fans may disagree with this approach because hot seat candidates are gambling the future of a team when they might not be the job the following year, but there's not a lot to be done about that because they are the decision makers. The only way to prevent such things would be for the owner step in and overrule them, but that would be a negative in itself because potential GMs and head coaches don't tend to like interfering owners.

So while I agree that no team should trade up for Herbert. I think we would all be naive to think that a team won't trade up for him if they are desperate or truly believe he's a franchise quarterback.

Originally posted by 9moon:
EXACTLY what everyone once thought of a BAD idea to trade up for...

GOFF
WENTZ
MAHOMES
TRUBISKY

.. One thing we should ALL be aware about in TODAY's draft is that TEAM(S) will move up to land the player they want..

When it comes to the position that most perceive to be the most important on the field of play, teams are obviously going to do whatever they can to land the prospect to fill that position long term. We as fans might question why teams would give up picks to move up to select them, but it's like when a team goes for it on fourth down, when it comes off they are a genius, when it doesn't they are an idiot. Same goes for trading up for QBs. When it comes off they are praised, when it doesn't they are criticised. For me, I'd rather my team take a gamble to secure that prospect rather than take their second, third or fourth choice prospect because the teams that win the most have a franchise quarterback. So it is very important to get one and a team should be willing to pay the price in order to get one.

Originally posted by dj43:
If we look at the current draft order, none of the first four teams need a QB. The Giants are #5 and will certainly take Herbert unless he bombs out at the combine. Then comes the Jags and another four teams that don't need a QB.

All of that to say that the possibility of the 49ers trading back with any of the QB-needy teams is just non-existent. The only trade-up scenario for a QB that I could envision for the Jags is to deal with the Jets at #4 just to beat the Giants to Herbert. Would that possibility lead to a domino effect of going even higher? I doubt it but it could lead to some interesting rumors.

You heard it here first...

I wouldn't rule out the Raiders selecting a quarterback. Gruden has already shown little loyalty to players selected prior to his arrival. They sent Mack to the Bears and Cooper to the Cowboys. They were two high draft picks who should have been cornerstones to their team long term, but he sent them both packing for different reasons. So while Gruden denies that the team are thinking about trading Derek Carr, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if they did decide to trade Derek Carr this off season and try to land a decent package of picks for him. I do agree that the top four shouldn't take a quarterback, but the Raiders are not exactly a model franchise and could throw a spanner in the works by selecting one.

As for teams trading up above the Giants, you are probably right that the list is pretty small. The question those teams would have to answer is whether Herbert is that much better than the other prospects with first round tags on them? At the minute I'd argue that there isn't much to separate him from Lock, Jones, Finley, Haskins, and perhaps even Grier. They all have their plus points and negatives, so despite my previous comment that teams should be willing to pay the price to trade up for a quarterback, when it comes to this year's class I wouldn't be paying over the odds for Herbert when the other prospects aren't necessarily a step down. But it does come down to the cost of the trade and how desperate the Jaguars (or any other team) get when it comes to wanting a quarterback.

  • Garce
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 49,302
Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
Originally posted by Garce:
Jagz?

Seachikkenz
Faderzz
Ramzzz

ITS FUNNY CUZ THE NAMES R CHANGED!!1!

WOW
Originally posted by RishikeshA:
He put a dagger in the hearts of 49er fans in 2011.

You're confusing Tom Coughlin with Kyle Williams.
Glad y'all optimistic but this dude Herbert isn't gonna have any team trading up to number 1 spot. Maybe a trade up to 5-10 range but not number 1. s**t the Giants already talking about starting Eli next year b/c the qb crop is some s**t. It's a very slim possibility in my opinion. In other years i'd agree with y'all
  • 9moon
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 9,420
Originally posted by lamontb:
Glad y'all optimistic but this dude Herbert isn't gonna have any team trading up to number 1 spot. Maybe a trade up to 5-10 range but not number 1. s**t the Giants already talking about starting Eli next year b/c the qb crop is some s**t. It's a very slim possibility in my opinion. In other years i'd agree with y'all
.

SMOKE SCREEN fellas !! smoke screen!!

JUST what team will open up and show you their cards right now??

and it's just right to respect the current QB at the moment, especially Eli because, well, it's common sense.. as good as HERBERT is, NO ONE KNOWS if he's ready to start ..

GOFF had to sit because he wasn't ready or his HC then just didn't believe in him..

MAYFIELD had to 1st beat the 2nd string before he had a chance..

yah feelin me yet??
  • dj43
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 28,818
Originally posted by Mike1989:
Originally posted by lamontb:
No team is trading up for Herbert

Should a team trade up for Herbert? Probably not. But will a team trade up for Herbert? Possibly.

At the end of the day the quarterback position is perceived to be the most important on the field. When you don't have your franchise quarterback, teams will always be looking at ways to acquire one, and at times they are going to clutch at straws and gamble their future on someone that potentially they shouldn't gamble on. Job security in this league is not amazing. Head coaches have been fired after one season. GMs have been fired not too long into their tenure. So if a head coach and/or GM are on shaky ground, and their team needs a QB to turn around their fortunes, then those teams are not going to sit back and wait until 2020 (or whenever) because there is a very good chance they won't be around to make those selections in 2020 if their 2019 season replicates their 2018 season due to the lack of a QB. Drafting a QB perceived to be the future of the franchise can give them more time, or at least give them a better shot at holding onto their jobs. Now we as fans may disagree with this approach because hot seat candidates are gambling the future of a team when they might not be the job the following year, but there's not a lot to be done about that because they are the decision makers. The only way to prevent such things would be for the owner step in and overrule them, but that would be a negative in itself because potential GMs and head coaches don't tend to like interfering owners.

So while I agree that no team should trade up for Herbert. I think we would all be naive to think that a team won't trade up for him if they are desperate or truly believe he's a franchise quarterback.

Originally posted by 9moon:
EXACTLY what everyone once thought of a BAD idea to trade up for...

GOFF
WENTZ
MAHOMES
TRUBISKY

.. One thing we should ALL be aware about in TODAY's draft is that TEAM(S) will move up to land the player they want..

When it comes to the position that most perceive to be the most important on the field of play, teams are obviously going to do whatever they can to land the prospect to fill that position long term. We as fans might question why teams would give up picks to move up to select them, but it's like when a team goes for it on fourth down, when it comes off they are a genius, when it doesn't they are an idiot. Same goes for trading up for QBs. When it comes off they are praised, when it doesn't they are criticised. For me, I'd rather my team take a gamble to secure that prospect rather than take their second, third or fourth choice prospect because the teams that win the most have a franchise quarterback. So it is very important to get one and a team should be willing to pay the price in order to get one.

Originally posted by dj43:
If we look at the current draft order, none of the first four teams need a QB. The Giants are #5 and will certainly take Herbert unless he bombs out at the combine. Then comes the Jags and another four teams that don't need a QB.

All of that to say that the possibility of the 49ers trading back with any of the QB-needy teams is just non-existent. The only trade-up scenario for a QB that I could envision for the Jags is to deal with the Jets at #4 just to beat the Giants to Herbert. Would that possibility lead to a domino effect of going even higher? I doubt it but it could lead to some interesting rumors.

You heard it here first...

I wouldn't rule out the Raiders selecting a quarterback. Gruden has already shown little loyalty to players selected prior to his arrival. They sent Mack to the Bears and Cooper to the Cowboys. They were two high draft picks who should have been cornerstones to their team long term, but he sent them both packing for different reasons. So while Gruden denies that the team are thinking about trading Derek Carr, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if they did decide to trade Derek Carr this off season and try to land a decent package of picks for him. I do agree that the top four shouldn't take a quarterback, but the Raiders are not exactly a model franchise and could throw a spanner in the works by selecting one.

As for teams trading up above the Giants, you are probably right that the list is pretty small. The question those teams would have to answer is whether Herbert is that much better than the other prospects with first round tags on them? At the minute I'd argue that there isn't much to separate him from Lock, Jones, Finley, Haskins, and perhaps even Grier. They all have their plus points and negatives, so despite my previous comment that teams should be willing to pay the price to trade up for a quarterback, when it comes to this year's class I wouldn't be paying over the odds for Herbert when the other prospects aren't necessarily a step down. But it does come down to the cost of the trade and how desperate the Jaguars (or any other team) get when it comes to wanting a quarterback.

Nice, thoughtful post.
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