Jimmy Garoppolo, QB, Los Angeles Rams

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by Waterbear:
Yeah again, I didn't criticize posters who picked Kyle over Jimmy. That was not the purpose for me making the poll.

If that's your interpretation of the question then it's fine. But I'd argue your logic probably isn't consistent.

If it was, then you should automatically give any head coach more credit/blame for any success/failure a team has.

For instance, Mike McCarthy should be given more credit than Aaron Rodgers for winning the Super Bowl.

Idk one person that knows football that would agree with that sentiment. But that's what you'd have to believe, no?

Again, I didn't mind when people called the poll a stupid question. Because in some ways it was. But sometimes you can get good results from a stupid question, and sometimes you can get bad results from a great question. I personally think we got the former, but I understand there were a lot of people who didn't understand what I was doing. I've never tried to pile on Jimmy, I just wanted to show how unbalanced things were and I believe I did that.

I'll give an example of a real poll question, that is similar
it would be is Russ Wilson holding Sean P back?

the reason that's a real question, is Sean P didn't pick Russ. So Sean bears no responsibility for Russ being there.

If Sean P went out and spent a bunch of ones on Russ, than it would be a lil silly to ask if Russ is holding Sean back, Sean did that one to himself

i'll use your logic

SP chose Denver and chose not to get rid of Russ, so that means Sean chose Russ ..derp

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by Waterbear:
Yeah again, I didn't criticize posters who picked Kyle over Jimmy. That was not the purpose for me making the poll.

If that's your interpretation of the question then it's fine. But I'd argue your logic probably isn't consistent.

If it was, then you should automatically give any head coach more credit/blame for any success/failure a team has.

For instance, Mike McCarthy should be given more credit than Aaron Rodgers for winning the Super Bowl.

Idk one person that knows football that would agree with that sentiment. But that's what you'd have to believe, no?

Again, I didn't mind when people called the poll a stupid question. Because in some ways it was. But sometimes you can get good results from a stupid question, and sometimes you can get bad results from a great question. I personally think we got the former, but I understand there were a lot of people who didn't understand what I was doing. I've never tried to pile on Jimmy, I just wanted to show how unbalanced things were and I believe I did that.

I'll give an example of a real poll question, that is similar
it would be is Russ Wilson holding Sean P back?

the reason that's a real question, is Sean P didn't pick Russ. So Sean bears no responsibility for Russ being there.

If Sean P went out and spent a bunch of ones on Russ, than it would be a lil silly to ask if Russ is holding Sean back, Sean did that one to himself

The reason why the question was "stupid" was because, like I said previously, it was too simplistic.

There's a wide range of acceptable answers to the question.

Some people like yourself included GM Kyle as part of the equation, and others isolated the head coaches play calling vs production of the QB. Neither are wrong interpretations of the poll question.

All I'm saying is that you're probably putting yourself into a smaller and smaller box with your current logic.

For example, any head coach who drafts a QB and wins a SB, must be given more credit than the QB.

Is that not an accurate criticism of your position?

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Got all upset when Waterbear asked the question.

It was a dumb question, ok JG is holding back KS, well who picked JG?
he didn't trade for himself, nor did he sign himself to a record deal
it's like a math equation, KS held back, by KS is what it reduces to, KS picked him

Goal posts successfully relocated.

no, I'll use an analogy, the post I am replying to sucks, but I don't blame the post for that.

Harhar.

But you admit Jimmy was not as good as you once thought, seeing as how that is implicit in your response. That's progress.

However, you are right to blame KS for the QB situation. He should have spent time studying Mahomes. Had he done so, maybe he would have come to the same conclusion as Andy Reid (and me: that he was a Brett Favre clone, not a Johnny Cocaine clone).

No I don't, I already put in this thread, 2017 JG was great, 2019 he played well, 2021 he played well
understand I am saying in regards to WBs infamous poll, the same thing I said back in that time,
even if one is to say JG is to blame, where do you think he came from? he didn't trade for himself
logically, it's equivalent, to blaming Lance sucking on Lance, I blame it on whoever thought TL was a good idea (KS all the way)

if you don't like personnel as being able to hack it, blame whoever is your GM, that's my point
and as far as holding us back, JG was the best KS has done to this point, he has a lot more resume than BP, thru sheer volume of years of time, TL did a lot more to hold us back, but again not on him, on the decision we made as an org

TL was drafted as a developmental project. It is expected he should suck without the playing time to develop.

But if you don't admit that Jimmy was not that good, and that he was propped up by KS, then clearly I cannot take much of what you say seriously, since the facts are bearing out this season that KS did indeed elevate Jimmy.

And now the TL defense, this is getting good

sure KS knew he was a year 1 project, but anticipated he would be a guy year 2, he referenced the Mahomes / Smith model, how did that go? Focus on his play what we have to go off of, year 2 and preseason year 3. He regressed. So yeah, if the question is who is to blame, whoever picked that guy, at an insane cost, is to take a very good amount of blame. You can already see the investment, vs the ROI. It's a done deal.

It's the same guy who picked JG, what always baffled me is you guys would pull your hair out with JG, and not say one word about the guy who picked him. We can all love KS the playcaller, even KS the WR whisperer, can we separate it out and all agree, his record as a QB picker, is highly questionable, at best. He addressed it and brought in a QB coach, and had him help scout late round guys, supposedly, we found a guy..

You didn't start blaming Kyle until we were proven right about Jimmy.

You weren't proven right lol, nice try
iirc you are the guy posting that TL was some elite talent, and a major run threat, even after the film was already on tape with NFL coaches saying he stumbles around like a fullback..

you gonna say JG in 2017 sucked? cuz of some Raider game in 2023? get real.. guys get old, look at Russ he's a shell of himself
I'm not even really blaming KS, I am saying on the subject of the WB poll, if you say JG is 'holding us back' that reduces to KS is holding us back, cuz KS picked him
that's the reality,

it would only be a real poll, if KS inherited JG, he didn't

Originally posted by Waterbear:
The reason why the question was "stupid" was because, like I said previously, it was too simplistic.

There's a wide range of acceptable answers to the question.

Some people like yourself included GM Kyle as part of the equation, and others isolated the head coaches play calling vs production of the QB. Neither are wrong interpretations of the poll question.

All I'm saying is that you're probably putting yourself into a smaller and smaller box with your current logic.

For example, any head coach who drafts a QB and wins a SB, must be given more credit than the QB.

Is that not an accurate criticism of your position?

that's not accurate
I'm not talking at all about winning a SB, or credit and degrees of credit

The poll was is someone holding us back. It's like TL, yes he held us back, but don't blame the player, blame the decision to select him. With JG, I thought he played well for us. That's my take. He's washed now it seems, which happens to older guys, with a ton of injuries over the years.

Because KS acquired JG and TL, if you don't like those guys, how they developed, etc, it's not hard where the blame should lie. I think he did good to get JG. I am more speaking to you guys, if you think JG is a bum, why give KS so much credit for saddling himself with a bum QB, then drafting TL? Those don't seem like strong moves, if one thinks JG sucks. For me it's more like okay he really effed up on TL. Even for me tho, I do question, why was JG at his best once he walked off the plane in 2017? Why did he not improve under Kyle? Why did TL seemingly regress? Kind of an alarming trend, considering BP looked great last season,

need growth / improvement year over year, from a player being coached up, developing in the system,
so QB acquisition and QB development are real questions, and for KS, not the guys he happens to select
I don't blame JG for being JG anymore than I blame CJ for being who he was, or TL, or any of these guys

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
i'll use your logic

SP chose Denver and chose not to get rid of Russ, so that means Sean chose Russ ..derp

this is painfully bad, Russ is under contract, the choice was keep Russ or swallow the entire city of DEN in dead cap
you have to pay him either way, to play or to be cut..
great choice

he has to wait it out to a degree
you are not sending your best today Mr Att

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by Waterbear:
The reason why the question was "stupid" was because, like I said previously, it was too simplistic.

There's a wide range of acceptable answers to the question.

Some people like yourself included GM Kyle as part of the equation, and others isolated the head coaches play calling vs production of the QB. Neither are wrong interpretations of the poll question.

All I'm saying is that you're probably putting yourself into a smaller and smaller box with your current logic.

For example, any head coach who drafts a QB and wins a SB, must be given more credit than the QB.

Is that not an accurate criticism of your position?

that's not accurate
I'm not talking at all about winning a SB, or credit and degrees of credit

The poll was is someone holding us back. It's like TL, yes he held us back, but don't blame the player, blame the decision to select him. With JG, I thought he played well for us. That's my take. He's washed now it seems, which happens to older guys, with a ton of injuries over the years.

Because KS acquired JG and TL, if you don't like those guys, how they developed, etc, it's not hard where the blame should lie. I think he did good to get JG. I am more speaking to you guys, if you think JG is a bum, why give KS so much credit for saddling himself with a bum QB, then drafting TL? Those don't seem like strong moves, if one thinks JG sucks. For me it's more like okay he really effed up on TL. Even for me tho, I do question, why was JG at his best once he walked off the plane in 2017? Why did he not improve under Kyle? Why did TL seemingly regress? Kind of an alarming trend, considering BP looked great last season,

need growth / improvement year over year, from a player being coached up, developing in the system,
so QB acquisition and QB development are real questions, and for KS, not the guys he happens to select
I don't blame JG for being JG anymore than I blame CJ for being who he was, or TL, or any of these guys

I think it is fairly accurate, but let me try again.

Forget what I said about a SB.

If a head coach drafts a QB, and that team has success, then you're automatically attributing more of the success to the head coach.

And vice versa.

Either way, the head coach is ultimately more responsible with your logic.

And again, that's your opinion and that's fine.

But you're still putting yourself in that box, logically.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
You weren't proven right lol, nice try
iirc you are the guy posting that TL was some elite talent, and a major run threat, even after the film was already on tape with NFL coaches saying he stumbles around like a fullback..

you gonna say JG in 2017 sucked? cuz of some Raider game in 2023? get real.. guys get old, look at Russ he's a shell of himself
I'm not even really blaming KS, I am saying on the subject of the WB poll, if you say JG is 'holding us back' that reduces to KS is holding us back, cuz KS picked him
that's the reality,

it would only be a real poll, if KS inherited JG, he didn't

He played well for 5 games. Then he became who he is when teams adjusted.

He's not washed. He's the same guys he's always been since 2018 he just doesn't have Kyle propping him up.

Let's take away the concept of who's to blame. How about who deserves more credit for the 9ers offensive success while he was here Kyle or Jimmy?

Originally posted by Waterbear:
I think it is fairly accurate, but let me try again.

Forget what I said about a SB.

If a head coach drafts a QB, and that team has success, then you're automatically attributing more of the success to the head coach.

And vice versa.

Either way, the head coach is ultimately more responsible with your logic.

And again, that's your opinion and that's fine.

But you're still putting yourself in that box, logically.

no, I am not automatically, doing any such thing
I probably give more credit in KC to Reid
and probably give more credit in NE to Brady

each situation is a lil unique

the prob with your poll, is you wanted to say who is to blame (holding us back) and the option was (player) and (GM who acquired said player)
it just boils down to the same thing, no matter what you choose imo
yet we are rehashing

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Let's take away the concept of who's to blame. How about who deserves more credit for the 9ers offensive success while he was here Kyle or Jimmy?

I would say Kyle, no question
I love Kyle, heck I wanted Mike Shanny as HC after 94
I followed those Mike Shanny teams closely, including guys like Lynch and Griese as players
very cool to see it come full circle, with KS, and I think him holding up that trophy it would probably be the best moment as a 49er fan in our team history

i say with KS it's 99% approval, and it is quicker to bring up the grievances, than the long list of great things he's doing well at
I think the grievances are get more analytical on when to go for it
and we need to get better at QB evaluation and development, I don't see QBs improving here, and the entire TL situation was a fiasco
but credit to him for bringing Griese on board, I think he sensed the fiasco, and did something about it

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Got all upset when Waterbear asked the question.

It was a dumb question, ok JG is holding back KS, well who picked JG?
he didn't trade for himself, nor did he sign himself to a record deal
it's like a math equation, KS held back, by KS is what it reduces to, KS picked him

Goal posts successfully relocated.

no, I'll use an analogy, the post I am replying to sucks, but I don't blame the post for that.

Harhar.

But you admit Jimmy was not as good as you once thought, seeing as how that is implicit in your response. That's progress.

However, you are right to blame KS for the QB situation. He should have spent time studying Mahomes. Had he done so, maybe he would have come to the same conclusion as Andy Reid (and me: that he was a Brett Favre clone, not a Johnny Cocaine clone).

No I don't, I already put in this thread, 2017 JG was great, 2019 he played well, 2021 he played well
understand I am saying in regards to WBs infamous poll, the same thing I said back in that time,
even if one is to say JG is to blame, where do you think he came from? he didn't trade for himself
logically, it's equivalent, to blaming Lance sucking on Lance, I blame it on whoever thought TL was a good idea (KS all the way)

if you don't like personnel as being able to hack it, blame whoever is your GM, that's my point
and as far as holding us back, JG was the best KS has done to this point, he has a lot more resume than BP, thru sheer volume of years of time, TL did a lot more to hold us back, but again not on him, on the decision we made as an org

TL was drafted as a developmental project. It is expected he should suck without the playing time to develop.

But if you don't admit that Jimmy was not that good, and that he was propped up by KS, then clearly I cannot take much of what you say seriously, since the facts are bearing out this season that KS did indeed elevate Jimmy.

And now the TL defense, this is getting good

sure KS knew he was a year 1 project, but anticipated he would be a guy year 2, he referenced the Mahomes / Smith model, how did that go? Focus on his play what we have to go off of, year 2 and preseason year 3. He regressed. So yeah, if the question is who is to blame, whoever picked that guy, at an insane cost, is to take a very good amount of blame. You can already see the investment, vs the ROI. It's a done deal.

It's the same guy who picked JG, what always baffled me is you guys would pull your hair out with JG, and not say one word about the guy who picked him. We can all love KS the playcaller, even KS the WR whisperer, can we separate it out and all agree, his record as a QB picker, is highly questionable, at best. He addressed it and brought in a QB coach, and had him help scout late round guys, supposedly, we found a guy..

You didn't start blaming Kyle until we were proven right about Jimmy.

You weren't proven right lol, nice try
iirc you are the guy posting that TL was some elite talent, and a major run threat, even after the film was already on tape with NFL coaches saying he stumbles around like a fullback..

you gonna say JG in 2017 sucked? cuz of some Raider game in 2023? get real.. guys get old, look at Russ he's a shell of himself
I'm not even really blaming KS, I am saying on the subject of the WB poll, if you say JG is 'holding us back' that reduces to KS is holding us back, cuz KS picked him
that's the reality,

it would only be a real poll, if KS inherited JG, he didn't

Lance IS a run threat. I never intended to communicate he was a "major" run threat. I said he was a threat to get 4-6 cheap yards on a regular basis. Which he was, and which he did do.

And read more carefully. I'm not saying Jimmy sucked. I'm saying he was propped up by Kyle. And in 2017 his INT% would have been among the worst in the league. A lot of you guys were sitting there in the corner grinning and rubbing your hands together about how great Jimmy was going to look with a "real" scheme, the Patriots scheme. Not so, it seems. The same flaws he has always had still plague him. He doesn't suck. But he isn't as good as his "just wins" win percentage either. That was because of Kyle and the defense as much as anything else.

But since we're on this topic, do you think I still don't blame Kyle for passing on the one QB I wanted in 2017? Hell nah-a-ah. He's not getting a pass for that until he delivers a ring.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by Waterbear:
I think it is fairly accurate, but let me try again.

Forget what I said about a SB.

If a head coach drafts a QB, and that team has success, then you're automatically attributing more of the success to the head coach.

And vice versa.

Either way, the head coach is ultimately more responsible with your logic.

And again, that's your opinion and that's fine.

But you're still putting yourself in that box, logically.

no, I am not automatically, doing any such thing
I probably give more credit in KC to Reid
and probably give more credit in NE to Brady

each situation is a lil unique

the prob with your poll, is you wanted to say who is to blame (holding us back) and the option was (player) and (GM who acquired said player)
it just boils down to the same thing, no matter what you choose imo
yet we are rehashing

Yet Kyle is not just a GM, you're removing the playcalling aspect of the equation, in nearly every discussion you've had with me about this.

IMO Kyle is arguably the top play caller in the NFL, and even though I think Jimmy's not a great QB, I believe adding Deebo, Aiyuk, CMC, Mostert, Trent Williams and having our elite defense should be part of the equation of his capabilities as a GM.

You can disagree with that, but you're not finding anyone who would claim Jimmy is a top QB (other than biased 49ers fans).

Of course Kyle deserves blame for the QB he selects, but I feel like you're trying too hard to not acknowledge the context surrounding this franchise, just as you gave our 2017 success to Jimmy, while ignoring all of the evidence that showed he helped but he wasn't the main catalyst for our success. That was a team like the Vikings this year that was better than it appeared on paper. You've never acknowledged that.

So ya, if you believe Jimmy's less responsible for the offense's struggles, that's perfectly fine, but the way you frame your argument is the problem. I feel like you have to side with the head coach every time, because you don't include the impact of play calling, or the fact Kyle's put together a great team. You just focus on Kyle obtaining Jimmy, thus Kyle is more to blame.

Every time you say, "don't blame the player, blame the decision to select him"

Then how can you claim BB isn't more responsible for the offense's success than Brady?

IMO you're not being consistent, but I've rarely seen you be that.

Faithful gonna faithful. Guys he's right, everyone else on the planet is wrong.

And idk where's he coming up with this idea that Kyle chose Jimmy, that was basically 90% Lynch. Even Kyle said after the trade he was surprised but happy with the result. Everyone knows we were going to go after Kirk in the off-season. Obviously Lynch/Jed and the rest of the FO wasn't sold on that.

2017 Jimmy was good, I'll admit that as well, I was a fan. He had better mobility and arm strength. 2019 Jimmy was average and played poorly in the playoffs, hence all the talks about Brady/Rodgers. 2021 Jimmy was 3-5 to start the year and he was one loss away from getting benched for Trey, and then he sucked again in the playoffs when it mattered. That's the year we were trying to get Stafford.

I am also a bit surprised on how bad he is this year, he's arguably the worst starter in the league right now. Just goes to show how much Kyle made this guy and helped to get him paid.

Like bro, it's just a forum, it's OKAY to admit you were wrong.

Originally posted by GoreGoreGore:
Faithful gonna faithful. Guys he's right, everyone else on the planet is wrong.

And idk where's he coming up with this idea that Kyle chose Jimmy, that was basically 90% Lynch. Even Kyle said after the trade he was surprised but happy with the result. Everyone knows we were going to go after Kirk in the off-season. Obviously Lynch/Jed and the rest of the FO wasn't sold on that.

2017 Jimmy was good, I'll admit that as well, I was a fan. He had better mobility and arm strength. 2019 Jimmy was average and played poorly in the playoffs, hence all the talks about Brady/Rodgers. 2021 Jimmy was 3-5 to start the year and he was one loss away from getting benched for Trey, and then he sucked again in the playoffs when it mattered. That's the year we were trying to get Stafford.

I am also a bit surprised on how bad he is this year, he's arguably the worst starter in the league right now. Just goes to show how much Kyle made this guy and helped to get him paid.

Like bro, it's just a forum, it's OKAY to admit you were wrong.

90 percent on Lynch.. sure
Like JL is gonna hand pick the QB for Kyle with no input. Can't buy that for one sec. JL defers on O to Kyle.