Greg Roman, is he really good?

7:25

3 deep routes... decoy only or targets? I can not say for sure. Boldin runs a crosser and Gore leaks out as a pass option.

AR1? how?

Originally posted by NCommand:
Mc, I only have the NFL Replay version (it wasn't on locally, sadly enough).

Here are all the passing plays they aired per game clock (you choose):

how about the ones I have chosen so far? right from the start?

I'll do more later or tomorrow if you respond to the ones I already mentioned. I am curious to see if we are seeing two completely different things or if our lingo is simply off.

I see Roman calls the plays from the booth do you guys think if he were to call plays from the sidelines it would help any? i know calling from the sidelines isn't going to improve his play calling but maybe being down on the field in the trenches away from the booth he might see things differently and maybe he can actually walk around and talk to the players and get there input on what there seeing match ups to exploit etc it couldn't hurt any to try it.

Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
7:25

3 deep routes... decoy only or targets? I can not say for sure. Boldin runs a crosser and Gore leaks out as a pass option.

AR1? how?

OK, 7:21 on the play clock, 1Q.

CK under Center (yay!), Crabtree split out wide left, Gore in the backfield and Boldin split out wide right. McDonald & VD both line up next to the right OT. At the snap, Gore delays and then flares out left behind the DL, VD does his usual straight go up field drawing two defenders, McDonald also appears to do a go (gets knocked to the ground). Result: 17 yard acrobatic catch by Crabtree along the sidelines over Maxwell. The key here is watch CK. With two TE's AND Boldin drawing the attention to the right and a late flaring out Gore, there is only ONE passing option to the left (Crabtree). Yet, CK's head/body positioning doesn't even GLANCE to middle or right (where in theory, you'd have more receiving options). It's Crabtree @ 3 seconds from start to finish, no question.

I titled this one originally an AR1 (IIRC) b/c the Non-AR's draw so much attention to the right side to help isolate Crabtree. That said, this one isn't as obvious as most but clearly, it's one-read and one-read only. Crabtree is the AR. And like I said previously, the AR team passing concept focuses heaviliy on the AR's winning their 1on1 battles (with or without help from the others - the "design" isolates him).

IF CK doesn't pull the trigger here to Crabtree, the only ad lib option he has to that side is Gore and #54 closing (not a bad take but certainly not #2 or #3 in a progression read - he'd be an outlet/check down).

The thing that REALLY stood out to me this game was how often the RB's flared out behind the DL as outlets...especially on delayed routes and/or after assisting in pass protection first. I have yet to see Gore or Hunter as AR's but Miller certainly has been (see 1Q @ 9:48 on an AR2 call - Boldin blocks out his LB freeing him up for 7 yards).

Originally posted by NCommand:
OK, 7:21 on the play clock, 1Q.
there is only ONE passing option to the left (Crabtree). Yet, CK's head/body positioning doesn't even GLANCE to middle or right (where in theory, you'd have more receiving options). It's Crabtree @ 3 seconds from start to finish, no question.

IF CK doesn't pull the trigger here to Crabtree, the only ad lib option he has to that side is Gore and #54 closing (not a bad take but certainly not #2 or #3 in a progression read - he'd be an outlet/check down).

First, you say that Crabtree is the ONE passing option. Then, you go on to suggest that because Gore is an.. "ad-lib, outlet/checkdown" option...

So we seem to be disconnecting on the verbiage. I say Gore IS a receiving option. A checkdown is always a receiving option.

I agree that on some plays, there sometimes are decoy routes and clear outs... they existed in that very play. I agree that at times, the pass designs only extend to 2 or 3 viable options... but to say that there is "only one option" in the majority of pass plays? That, I will continue to disagree with, if that is i fact your stance. I think on most plays, there is a primary read... and at least one if not 2 or 3 progressive reads.

Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:

Originally posted by NCommand:
OK, 7:21 on the play clock, 1Q.
there is only ONE passing option to the left (Crabtree). Yet, CK's head/body positioning doesn't even GLANCE to middle or right (where in theory, you'd have more receiving options). It's Crabtree @ 3 seconds from start to finish, no question.

IF CK doesn't pull the trigger here to Crabtree, the only ad lib option he has to that side is Gore and #54 closing (not a bad take but certainly not #2 or #3 in a progression read - he'd be an outlet/check down).

First, you say that Crabtree is the ONE passing option. Then, you go on to suggest that because Gore is an.. "ad-lib, outlet/checkdown" option...

So we seem to be disconnecting on the verbiage. I say Gore IS a receiving option. A checkdown is always a receiving option.

I agree that on some plays, there sometimes are decoy routes and clear outs... they existed in that very play. I agree that at times, the pass designs only extend to 2 or 3 viable options... but to say that there is "only one option" in the majority of pass plays? That, I will continue to disagree with, if that is i fact your stance. I think on most plays, there is a primary read... and at least one if not 2 or 3 progressive reads.

A check down is not a progression receiver...it's a last resort and something implemented this game more than I have ever seen. And one we could have changed to AR's as the middle of the field was WIDE open all day. But we're talking about CK and his progression reads. As you can see, there were NO progression reads. It's AR all the way and if not an option, CK is now in ad lib mode...it doesn't mean CK wouldn't or couldn't pull the trigger on his check down (Gore), or run or throw it away...OR even scramble back right and hit Boldin again over Sherman for 27 yards again. But those non-AR's are not true progression read receivers.

Also, watch the play again...the ball is out before Gore even breaks the line. He was not a receiving option originally.

And in this team passing offense, you don't need EVERYONE to be a decoy to help the AR. Sometimes all you need is 1 or 2 guys helping out. The design, called by Roman, assists the AR. In fact, the design itself can act as the decoy (so-to-speak).

Here is an example using a gif (Post #192): http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/niners/176105-analysis-seahawks-game-coaches-film/page13/

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:

Originally posted by NCommand:
OK, 7:21 on the play clock, 1Q.
there is only ONE passing option to the left (Crabtree). Yet, CK's head/body positioning doesn't even GLANCE to middle or right (where in theory, you'd have more receiving options). It's Crabtree @ 3 seconds from start to finish, no question.

IF CK doesn't pull the trigger here to Crabtree, the only ad lib option he has to that side is Gore and #54 closing (not a bad take but certainly not #2 or #3 in a progression read - he'd be an outlet/check down).

First, you say that Crabtree is the ONE passing option. Then, you go on to suggest that because Gore is an.. "ad-lib, outlet/checkdown" option...

So we seem to be disconnecting on the verbiage. I say Gore IS a receiving option. A checkdown is always a receiving option.

I agree that on some plays, there sometimes are decoy routes and clear outs... they existed in that very play. I agree that at times, the pass designs only extend to 2 or 3 viable options... but to say that there is "only one option" in the majority of pass plays? That, I will continue to disagree with, if that is i fact your stance. I think on most plays, there is a primary read... and at least one if not 2 or 3 progressive reads.

A check down is not a progression receiver...it's a last resort and something implemented this game more than I have ever seen. And one we could have changed to AR's as the middle of the field was WIDE open all day. But we're talking about CK and his progression reads. As you can see, there were NO progression reads. It's AR all the way and if not an option, CK is now in ad lib mode...it doesn't mean CK wouldn't or couldn't pull the trigger on his check down (Gore), or run or throw it away...OR even scramble back right and hit Boldin again over Sherman for 27 yards again. But those non-AR's are not true progression read receivers.

And in this team passing offense, you don't need EVERYONE to be a decoy to help the AR. Sometimes all you need is 1 or 2 guys helping out. The design, called by Roman, assists the AR.

Here is an example using a gif (Post #192): http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/niners/176105-analysis-seahawks-game-coaches-film/page13/

And when has CK EVER regularly checked down to Gore or Hunter? Good lord, I've been praying for them to feature the RBs as receivers all year. Gore (or and RB not FB) as a viable receiver actually running a pass pattern has been completely eliminated from this year's playbook.

It would be HUGE and esp. in this game. Same with McDonald. He was open all day in the middle of the field. This was my original game plan TBH b/c of all the attention VD, Manningham, Boldin and Crabtree would be taking up.

And as more evidence to this specific play, watch Gore. He isn't even through the OL/DL before the ball is already out to Crabtree. Clearly, he was not a true receiving option. He "could" have been an outlet though if CK didn't pull the trigger. I hate to say it but I'd almost PREFER he takes these check downs to initially loosen up the defense and get them leaning forward a bit. THEN you come back to these intermediate AR routes. Even deeper routes. Our AR's have to work SO hard sometimes and make some insane catches. These check downs and the middle of the field? Simple pass and defenders weren't even in the same area code on most of them (esp. the delayed flare outs).

OMg, the fact this thread is still here must mean roman is too. OH no, oh no, oh no.

Pas!!! You're timing always cracks me up!

Whether you are with NC, Thl, GM,dtg, et al, I think all agree (as I do) that regardless of whether ARs or PS, the middle continues to be open and we avoid it as if it were the Bermuda triangle. Man, Vance, hunter, Baldwin, LMJ could camp out there for all game and wouldn't be touched. Kap would have to take a remedial course on throwing more 4-6 yd passes with way less heat however. Still, he is talented and I am sure he can learn it.

Also, running frank into the box 8-10 is just flat ass goofy. 8 on 5 guys just doesn't work so throw dinks and dunks over the middle, slant, crossing patterns,whatever, and watch the completions pile up. Then when D move 3 or more guys off LOS, then turn frank loose, and watch the yrds pile up. Frank into a box 8-10 is just a wasted play...every dam time.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Whether you are with NC, Thl, GM,dtg, et al, I think all agree (as I do) that regardless of whether ARs or PS, the middle continues to be open and we avoid it as if it were the Bermuda triangle. Man, Vance, hunter, Baldwin, LMJ could camp out there for all game and wouldn't be touched. Kap would have to take a remedial course on throwing more 4-6 yd passes with way less heat however. Still, he is talented and I am sure he can learn it.

Also, running frank into the box 8-10 is just flat ass goofy. 8 on 5 guys just doesn't work so throw dinks and dunks over the middle, slant, crossing patterns,whatever, and watch the completions pile up. Then when D move 3 or more guys off LOS, then turn frank loose, and watch the yrds pile up. Frank into a box 8-10 is just a wasted play...every dam time.

Good points Paso--John Elway was the same way as a young QB. It took him years to learn how to take a bit off his passes without throwing lame duck interceptions. Montana was the best I've seen in the short passing game and I believe it is largely due to his tutor--B. Walsh. When you have a coach insist on you practicing every aspect of QBing to the point where it becomes totally ingrained, you have a chance to become your potential.

My worry is that, even though Harbaugh is a very knowledgeable QB coach, CK won't get that insistent training every year. I know he goes to that Atlanta clinic, but that's not a 9er QB coach using 9er plays and precision, with all 9er players around you. The chemistry didn't happen, or not to a great extent, to make Lockette a keeper; so his training with receivers in the off-season did not do much to help the team. I do commend him for trying but wouldn't it have made more sense to train at the SF facilities where more players would have been available?

NC--as for the difference between you, Mac and myself (or anyone else)...I think one key is defining a receiving option. To me, a receiving option is any receiver running a route...whether that route is 80 yards down the field or behind the LOS on either side. It's clear that you are using a different definition and that clears things up quite a bit. I'm not sure where the AR idea originates but if you can post a history I would greatly appreciate it. I'm always open to remedial tutoring!

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

NC--as for the difference between you, Mac and myself (or anyone else)...I think one key is defining a receiving option. To me, a receiving option is any receiver running a route...whether that route is 80 yards down the field or behind the LOS on either side. It's clear that you are using a different definition and that clears things up quite a bit.

.. and it's not just some eligible receiver running around beyond or behind the LOS. It's an eligible target running a route AND making himself a viable target for his QB to throw to. (meaning, runs route and turns back to the QB to look for a potential pass) Like I said, I know there are times when a "target" or two is running downfield and keeps his back to the QB... meaning that he is out there as a pure decoy +/or potential blocker... but I contend still that on most plays.. 90+% perhaps.. that our QB has more than just one VIABLE receiver looking to see a possible ball come his way.




Just finished the Broncos/Chargers game.... yay!

Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
.. and it's not just some eligible receiver running around beyond or behind the LOS. It's an eligible target running a route AND making himself a viable target for his QB to throw to. (meaning, runs route and turns back to the QB to look for a potential pass) Like I said, I know there are times when a "target" or two is running downfield and keeps his back to the QB... meaning that he is out there as a pure decoy +/or potential blocker... but I contend still that on most plays.. 90+% perhaps.. that our QB has more than just one VIABLE receiver looking to see a possible ball come his way.




Just finished the Broncos/Chargers game.... yay!

Good morning Mac! When I see receivers not looking back...even if they are running a decoy route...it kills me! What if the QBs in trouble, scrambling, and needs your help? You just keep running, blind to the world? This means the team has horrible WR coaching!

I recall Freddy Solomon doing this and I'd be screaming at the TV screen! He'd be standing on the sideline next to a CB watching Montana scramble like crazy keeping the play alive. Bad, bad, bad, bad!

In this regard, NC may be correct if that's how the play is being coached and practiced. I've never seen Boldin do this so it must be coaching, not the scheme...OK...as you can see, this is a hot button for me and I'm rambling...but for heaven's sake! They've got a QB who can throw the ball 80 yards and no one breaks deep on a broken play? Really?

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
OMg, the fact this thread is still here must mean roman is too. OH no, oh no, oh no.

the sad thing is that this question is still being asked after all this

An NFL team needing a HC won't want to wait for the playoffs thru the SBowl to be over.

Unless they really want Roman and they work out a deal behind closed doors that nobody knows about but them.

Until then we're stuck. Hopefully some college team makes him an offer he can't refuse.