Solomon Thomas--Stanford

I find myself swaying back and forth between taking Solomon, Foster, Fournette and/or Hooker/Adams at the 2 spot.

But when it comes down to it, I think the BPA and one that offers the most upside - it is Solomon Thomas.

I worry about Foster's character issues, the issues at the combine, his inability to decipher X's and O's. Fournette may be too high at 2. Hooker/Adams are ballers but we have 2 safeties that are 1st round picks and 1 that's a 2nd.

The most appealing trait that Solomon brings to the table - his quickness off the ball is ELITE. You can't teach that. I think his hand use could use some more work. His power though is unmatched. When he lines up on the inside on a C/G, he most always wins that battle. What he can bring to the table with his disruptive traits is unlike anyone we have on the roster right now. Even Buckner, who I think will be a 8-10 sack guy.

As the draft gets closer, Solomon is slowly becoming the consensus pick at #2.

If we do take Thomas, which everyone seems to be circling now, we're going to have to figure out what to do with Armstead. Maybe taking Solomon at 2 and trading back into the first round for Kizer/Mahomes in the latter part of the first round (like our 2nd and Armstead)...

Originally posted by amosmac28:

I find myself swaying back and forth between taking Solomon, Foster, Fournette and/or Hooker/Adams at the 2 spot.

But when it comes down to it, I think the BPA and one that offers the most upside - it is Solomon Thomas.

I worry about Foster's character issues, the issues at the combine, his inability to decipher X's and O's. Fournette may be too high at 2. Hooker/Adams are ballers but we have 2 safeties that are 1st round picks and 1 that's a 2nd.

The most appealing trait that Solomon brings to the table - his quickness off the ball is ELITE. You can't teach that. I think his hand use could use some more work. His power though is unmatched. When he lines up on the inside on a C/G, he most always wins that battle. What he can bring to the table with his disruptive traits is unlike anyone we have on the roster right now. Even Buckner, who I think will be a 8-10 sack guy.

As the draft gets closer, Solomon is slowly becoming the consensus pick at #2.

To me the safeties are off the board. I know the scheme we are running demands a great safety but safeties with range can be found later on quite easily.

Foster to me is off the board. If there are any red flags with the 2nd overall pick he is off the board.

Fournette. Nope. Not at 2

To me the biggest needs are still QB and WR. I think we need to decide who will make this team better just by being on the field.

That player to me is Mike Williams. Shanahans offense won't work without a Z. Williams to me is a guy defenses will have to scheme to take away. That will leave guys like Garcon, Our speedsters in Goodwin and Robinson and Juice and McDonald open to make plays.

Williams isn't just a perfect fit he may be the BPA.

In today's NFL teams can win without a dominant D but they won't win anything without a true #1 receiver or QB.

Also, Im not sure why guys are saying Mitchell will be a NT. HE ISN'T. He is a penetrating 3 gap DT who struggles vs the run. Mitchell, Armstead and Blair will be sharing snaps. Adding Thomas would mean there are 4 guys to share snaps at 3 tech DT. That makes no sense. Thomas isn't a LEO. Everyone can agree to that. And Buckner has the 5 tech LDE spot locked down. Even of Armstead is traded Thomas will be a rotational player with Mitchell and Blair.

Put on the tape of the National Championship game. Williams was unstoppable vs an NFL CALIBRE D. That's what a good QB and WR combo can do.

SAM: Brooks
5 Tech: Buckner
NT: Purcell (Dial)
3 Tech: Mitchell (Armstead / Blair)
LEO: Lynch (Harold)

This is a nice looking front that can win games.

We will draft a LEO (ideally in round 2) and a NT (round 4 or later) and a SAM to groom or compete with Brooks.

1- WR- (Mike Williams)
2- LEO (Jordan Willis)
3- SAM (Ryan Anderson)
4- NT (Tyrique Jarrett)

It just makes too much sense.

I like Solomon a lot. I just dont think the need is there. We have several good young D lineman. I see lots of comments about Armstead, but what about Blair? That kid is a stud. With Buckner, Blair and Armstead I dont think we need another good D lineman. I hope we trade back a few spots and take an offensive weapon like Fournette or Williams.

Originally posted by SteveYoung:
To me the safeties are off the board. I know the scheme we are running demands a great safety but safeties with range can be found later on quite easily.

Foster to me is off the board. If there are any red flags with the 2nd overall pick he is off the board.

Fournette. Nope. Not at 2

To me the biggest needs are still QB and WR. I think we need to decide who will make this team better just by being on the field.

That player to me is Mike Williams. Shanahans offense won't work without a Z. Williams to me is a guy defenses will have to scheme to take away. That will leave guys like Garcon, Our speedsters in Goodwin and Robinson and Juice and McDonald open to make plays.

Williams isn't just a perfect fit he may be the BPA.

In today's NFL teams can win without a dominant D but they won't win anything without a true #1 receiver or QB.

Also, Im not sure why guys are saying Mitchell will be a NT. HE ISN'T. He is a penetrating 3 gap DT who struggles vs the run. Mitchell and Armstead will be sharing snaps. Adding Thomas would mean there are 3 guys to share snaps at 3 tech DT. That makes no sense. Thomas isn't a LEO. Everyone can agree to that. And Buckner has the 5 tech LDE spot locked down. Even of Armstead is traded Thomas will be a rotational player with Mitchell.

Put on the tape of the National Championship game. Williams was unstoppable vs an NFL CALIBRE D. That's what a good QB and WR combo can do.

SAM: Brooks
5 Tech: Buckner
NT: Purcell (Dial)
3 Tech: Mitchell (Armstead)
LEO: Lynch (Harold)

This is a nice looking front that can win games.

We will draft a LEO (ideally in round 2) and a NT (round 4 or later) and a SAM to groom or compete with Brooks.

1- Mike Williams
2- LEO
3- SAM
4- NT

It just makes too much sense.

Agree w/ most everything you say. Too risky to take Foster @ 2 w/ the red flags. Not to mention, he's not a Ray Lewis type prospect. He's more of a Bowman who went in the 3rd round.

Little concerned we would take Williams at 2. Much rather have him between 5-10. He's not a Julio Jones. He is a great receiver but doesn't have the speed to match it.

Last tidbit - can we please find another NT other then Purcell though? He is garbage in my mind. Last year, he got pushed around everywhere. No matter where he played on the line.

If there was a stat for "whips", Solomon Thomas would be leading that category. The amount of whips to a guard/center and just basically planting them on their ass after watching 3 game tapes is remarkable. This guy is not an Edge rusher/LEO. He does his best work on the interior. Someone will get a heck of a D-lineman.

His Sophomore stats are very comparable (other then TFL's) to Aaron Donald when he was a Senior @ Pitt and Donald was a 4 year player. I think Solomon is an ascending player who went against some tough competition. However, I do understand the logic of not drafting him after we have already drafted Armstead/Buckner/Blair.

Originally posted by amosmac28:

Agree w/ most everything you say. Too risky to take Foster @ 2 w/ the red flags. Not to mention, he's not a Ray Lewis type prospect. He's more of a Bowman who went in the 3rd round.

Little concerned we would take Williams at 2. Much rather have him between 5-10. He's not a Julio Jones. He is a great receiver but doesn't have the speed to match it.

Last tidbit - can we please find another NT other then Purcell though? He is garbage in my mind. Last year, he got pushed around everywhere. No matter where he played on the line.

Williams game isn't reliant on speed. Regardless, 4.6- 40 with the ability to catch anything that comes his way is good enough for me.

We aren't in the position to take BPA. We have so many holes that we need to take the BPA that fills a need. Not a rotational player.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
You don't keep a DC to have them run a different scheme. Jacksonville's defense really wasn't the issue last season as much as their offense. They are going to be running a similar 4-3 defense, I doubt much changes in that area.

RaY McDonald is a great example why you guys may be pulling the plug a little early on AA. He didn't emerge into year 5 and year 3 as a starter

You're not waiting for Year 5 for Armstead to show improvement. McDonald was a 3rd round pick, Armstead was a first rounder. If he's not on the trade block already, he will be if he fails to show any real progress this season. McDonald was also an outstanding fit for what Fangio used him for in his defense. Armstead is essentially a lesser version of Buckner in a defense that has only a need for one of them. If you draft Thomas that doesn't mean that Armstead doesn't have a role, it allows him to be a rotational player, if he plays well, you trade him, if he plays poorly, well you've addressed the issue proactively.

They replaced the entire staff besides him and 1 other guy and apparently he does have concepts outside of Bradley's. Coaches know more than 1 scheme and can bounce around systems. Speculation is they're making some changes either way though it's Coughlin so yeah 7 tackle/ end rotation.

I didn't say wait to year 5 but giving him 2 healthy seasons isn't too much to ask. You're not getting anything for him in a trade. You gave up on him and may get a 6th rounder in return for a 1st. 60% of the game is played out of nickel don't tell me he doesn't fit. He'll be a be fine rotational pass rusher and can still play base at least some.

Originally posted by SteveYoung:
Williams game isn't reliant on speed. Regardless, 4.6- 40 with the ability to catch anything that comes his way is good enough for me.

We aren't in the position to take BPA. We have so many holes that we need to take the BPA that fills a need. Not a rotational player.

I agree - but taking BPA that fills a need sometimes can get you in to trouble. There are multiple occasions where this has backfired on teams. Multiple!

Originally posted by amosmac28:

I agree - but taking BPA that fills a need sometimes can get you in to trouble. There are multiple occasions where this has backfired on teams. Multiple!

I agree. But I just can't see us taking a guy at 2 who can play 2 positions on our front when we already have 4 good guys to play those 2 positions. (Buckner, Mitchell, Blair and Armstead)

There are red flags with:

Fournette: weight, production vs the elite. Zone fit?

Hooker: Injuries. Safety at 2?

Lattimore: Hamstrings

Foster: Combine meltdown

Thomas: Redundant. Scheme fit

Adams: Poor combine. Safety at 2?

I don't see any red flags with Mike Williams. He isn't a burner but his game isn't reliant on speed. He will make plays with his route running and catch radius. We have needed a true #1 receiver for about a decade. Since Terrell Owens left. I hope Shanahan doesn't pull a Baalke and skip the guy who is a perfect fit for his Z

Originally posted by NCommand:

I'm willing to bet the production from a rotation of Armstead/Blair will not be much more, if any, over Thomas/Blair or Armstead or Mitchell. You say Armstead hasn't shown much, yet, claim Thomas is far more talented. I can't make that claim...yet....although I do like Thomas' skill set a lot.

You may not be able to make the claim, many others would. In term of athleticism, hand use, pass rush moves and college productivity Thomas is just a much better prospect overall. There is a reason why he is expected to go Top 5 and most people were surprised that Armstead went before 25.

I just have yet to see Armstead at the 3T healthy. I have yet to see Armstead+Blair (maybe Mitchell) there. All we have to work on is projection and the model of defense we're installing. TBH, I'm far more concerned about our edges than interior right now and it's not even close. Both end positions.

What we've seen from Armstead is a guy with a inconsistent motor who has gotten overrun on run plays. He's looked every bit as raw as projected when he was drafted.

"Our model" is designed to generate a crap load of sacks and pressure from the edges (20+ sacks)

Is there a defensive model that doesnt utilize pressure from the edges? This doesnt rule out interior pass rushers, we saw this from the 49ers under Seifert oover and over again. He went to Carolina and the first thing he did was to start building the DL, adding guys like Kris Jenkins.

Seifert's emphasis on building the lines in Carolina mirrored his routine in San Francisco, where his pursuit of defensive linemen each year became a running joke. During eight seasons as the 49ers' coach, Seifert used his top draft pick on a defensive lineman four times. Three of the four, Ted Washington, Dana Stubblefield and Bryant Young, played in at least three Pro Bowls apiece, although Washington, who will play for New England in the Super Bowl, did not become a star until after leaving the 49ers.

More than once in those days, Seifert told reporters that, "You can't have too many defensive linemen," a reminder of how, in another era, he used nine defensive linemen on a rotating basis to help the 49ers go 18-1 and whip Miami in the Super Bowl in the 1984 season.

This is why I say youre far too focused on what Seattle has done. What they did had worked for them based on their particular personnel but the guy who is the basis for the scheme valued defensive linemen, particularly interior defensive linemen, quite highly.


If the scheme doesnt need quality interior defenders, why did Seifert use not one or two but three first rounders on interior linemen?

If Buckner isn't getting home, or the SAM on that edge, Saleh make look to bring Buckner back inside on the interior as well while looking for speed edge rushers in the draft. If we had Thomas, now what? [}

??? Youre making this too complicated. Go look at how Fangio used Justin Smith and Ray McDonald for a template on how Thomas and Buckner could be used.

Thomas is a really good player but not a good fit for this defense in this scheme.

I disagree 100%. I also believe that George Seifert would disagree with you as well. I think he's a great fit in most any scheme due to his talent and versatility. For the 49ers he'd be moved out around from end to the interior, fulfilling a similar role as Michael Bennett does with Seattle.

Originally posted by SteveYoung:

I agree. But I just can't see us taking a guy at 2 who can play 2 positions on our front when we already have 4 good guys to play those 2 positions. (Buckner, Mitchell, Blair and Armstead)

What makes you believe they are four good guys? Mitchell is a decent veteran signing but he is a short term stopgap.

Blair and Armstead are largely unknown quantities. Buckner might be the most established as a long term player on the DL and he is going to be entering his second NFL season.


They were ranked 32nd against the run a year ago and are quite far from proven, or good even. If you have a chance at a potential difference maker on the DL, guys like Mitchell, Blair and Armstead shouldnt stop you.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

You may not be able to make the claim, many others would. In term of athleticism, hand use, pass rush moves and college productivity Thomas is just a much better prospect overall. There is a reason why he is expected to go Top 5 and most people were surprised that Armstead went before 25.

What we've seen from Armstead is a guy with a inconsistent motor who has gotten overrun on run plays. He's looked every bit as raw as projected when he was drafted.



Is there a defensive model that doesnt utilize pressure from the edges? This doesnt rule out interior pass rushers, we saw this from the 49ers under Seifert oover and over again. He went to Carolina and the first thing he did was to start building the DL, adding guys like Kris Jenkins.






This is why I say youre far too focused on what Seattle has done. What they did had worked for them based on their particular personnel but the guy who is the basis for the scheme valued defensive linemen, particularly interior defensive linemen, quite highly.


If the scheme doesnt need quality interior defenders, why did Seifert use not one or two but three first rounders on interior linemen?




??? Youre making this too complicated. Go look at how Fangio used Justin Smith and Ray McDonald for a template on how Thomas and Buckner could be used.




I disagree 100%. I also believe that George Seifert would disagree with you as well. I think he's a great fit in most any scheme due to his talent and versatility. For the 49ers he'd be moved out around from end to the interior, fulfilling a similar role as Michael Bennett does with Seattle.

We have our Michael Bennett. His name is Deforest Buckner. What we don't have is a LEO or NT.

Armstead will be just fine rotating with Mitchell and Blair at 3 tech DT. Do we need a 4th guy to rotate with them at 3 tech?

Originally posted by NinerBuff:

If we do take Thomas, which everyone seems to be circling now, we're going to have to figure out what to do with Armstead. Maybe taking Solomon at 2 and trading back into the first round for Kizer/Mahomes in the latter part of the first round (like our 2nd and Armstead)...

You need plenty of DL, Armstead could compete for a spot. At worst he plays so so and gives you some added depth, or he plays very well, earns more snaps and down the road you trade him for picks.


I'm just not convinced of the fit of having two guys who fulfill similar roles in Armstead and Buckner both playing on this defense. I think a guy like Thomas is the perfect complement to Buckner upfront.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

What makes you believe they are four good guys? Mitchell is a decent veteran signing but he is a short term stopgap.

Blair and Armstead are largely unknown quantities. Buckner might be the most established as a long term player on the DL and he is going to be entering his second NFL season.


They were ranked 32nd against the run a year ago and are quite far from proven, or good even. If you have a chance at a potential difference maker on the DL, guys like Mitchell, Blair and Armstead shouldnt stop you.

Mike Williams and AA/Mitchell/Blair with a stud LEO in round 2

OR:

Zay Jones and Soloman Thomas/AA/Mitchell/Blair and no LEO IN ROUND 2.

Listen, I love Soloman Thomas but I just don't see how he makes out team that much better.