Solomon Thomas--Stanford

Originally posted by SteveYoung:
Mitchell and AA together inside will get destroyed in the run game. Mitchell isn't a NT. Never has been. He is a penetrating DT. AA will have no chance inside on running downs. He could be a nice Nickle rusher though.

Draft Marshon Lattimore at 2
Find a LEO in round 2 (Jordan Willis)
Draft a NT in round 3 and one later one (Dalvin Tomlinson and Eddie Vanderdoes)

LDE- Deforest Buckner
NT- Dalvin Tomlinson / Eddie Vanderdoes
3 tech- Earl Mitchell / Arik Armstead
LEO- Aaron Lynch / Jordan Willis

That would work. Plus we get a shutdown down corner In Lattimore. Something that we sorely need.

Once again, why are you guys so focused on base? The amount of snaps spent in base personnel is MINIMAL. There's a good chance Mitchell will only be on the field in base personnel.

We need to focus on sub packages because that's where we'll spend the majority of our snaps in. Solomon Thomas plays strongside end, and since teams utilize TWO 3ts in certain packages, Solomon, Deforest and Armstead can easily find themselves all on the field.

Two 3ts; one is shaded.

Thomas=end
AA+Defo=3Ts

Originally posted by SteveYoung:

Mitchell and AA together inside will get destroyed in the run game. Mitchell isn't a NT. Never has been. He is a penetrating DT. AA will have no chance inside on running downs. He could be a nice Nickle rusher though.

Draft Marshon Lattimore at 2
Find a LEO in round 2 (Jordan Willis)
Draft a NT in round 3 and one later one (Dalvin Tomlinson and Eddie Vanderdoes)

LDE- Deforest Buckner
NT- Dalvin Tomlinson / Eddie Vanderdoes
3 tech- Earl Mitchell / Arik Armstead
LEO- Aaron Lynch / Jordan Willis

That would work. Plus we get a shutdown down corner In Lattimore. Something that we sorely need.

Originally posted by Heroism:

Once again, why are you guys so focused on base? The amount of snaps spent in base personnel is MINIMAL. There's a good chance Mitchell will only be on the field in base personnel.

We need to focus on sub packages because that's where we'll spend the majority of our snaps in. Solomon Thomas plays strongside end, and since teams utilize TWO 3ts in certain packages, Solomon, Deforest and Armstead can easily find themselves all on the field.

Two 3ts; one is shaded.

Thomas=end
AA+Defo=3Ts

I agree. Thomas would be a beast

Originally posted by SammyFrancisco:
Well said. I tried to get this across a few pages back. Thomas is a great prospect, but he has never been a weakside pass rusher, like, e.g., Derek Barnett. He profiles more as a strongside DE in our defense, which is not as great an area of need. From my, admittedly limited, film-viewing, he gets to the quarterback mostly through the bull rush or by exploiting inside gaps with his tremendous burst off the line, often with the defense causing confusion with stunts, etc. So, what happens when you isolate him outside against an NFL Tackle? He is tremendously talented, so I don't doubt his potential, but profiling him as a LEO is based on projection more than film.

He's faster and quicker than Barnett so why do you think he can't rush from the outside?

Combine numbers for each guy

Barnett 6'3 259 lbs 32 1/8 arm, 10 hands, DNP bench, 4.88 40 yard dash, 31'' vert jump, 117'' broad jump, 6.96 3 cone, 4.44 20 yard shuttle
Thomas 6'3 273 lbs 33 arm, 9 3/8 hands, 30 bench, 4.69 40 yard dash, 35'' vert jump, 126'' broad jump, 6.95 3 cone, 4.28 20 yard shuttle

The bolded are in favor of Thomas. Bench can't be compared since Barnett didn't partcipate. All those numbers were better for Thomas including arm length(though not by much) while being 14 lbs heavier.

Yet people have no issues with Barnett being Leo? It's not like the ask is to take Thomas and turn him into a corner. He has played on the outside. Moving him just a bit further out isn't a bad thing. If anything it would make it harder for teams to double him when he's out wide. He has plenty of speed to get around the edge.

i just hope we don't pass up on a kid with this much talent because of his weight and the fact that he excelled as an inside rusher, which is harder to do btw.

Originally posted by genus49:

No offense but I don't need to prove sh*t. At least no more than you or others saying he's not a fit have to prove he cannot. Though I have yet to see someone tell me what skills Thomas does not possess which make a prospect a prime candidate for Leo. From the discussions around here it seems like weight appears to be the biggest factor which I find silly.

i also never said Bennett played LEO so you're getting several people confused.

I don't remember quoting you...

The fact that you seem to think I'm calling you out specifically with my post is the most confusing part.

Solomon Thomas generates pressure from shooting an interior gap, or out muscling his man. One on one with a LT, does his film show the ability to dip around the outside, or enough pass rush moves, speed to power, length to consistently win and get to the qb?

Thomas would be an excellent addition to the team. The question is, will a difference making LEO still be available at 34 to make it worth passing on in the first? Is a strongside DE a bigger need than a #1 WR or a #1 cb? I personally don't think so because you can have DeFo play strong end.

Originally posted by Heroism:
Once again, why are you guys so focused on base? The amount of snaps spent in base personnel is MINIMAL. There's a good chance Mitchell will only be on the field in base personnel.

We need to focus on sub packages because that's where we'll spend the majority of our snaps in. Solomon Thomas plays strongside end, and since teams utilize TWO 3ts in certain packages, Solomon, Deforest and Armstead can easily find themselves all on the field.

Two 3ts; one is shaded.

Thomas=end
AA+Defo=3Ts

Most sites have him sliding in on obvious passing situations like that one and he was an interior lineman in college. As of now we're all penciling in Buckner in that role as the strong side end who kicks inwards on passing downs. It's not that Thomas can't be an edge rusher but you don't want to draft someone at 2 and use him at 60% capacity. Ideally speaking to me there you'd have Lynch and a Leo at the ends and then Buckner and Thomas as the tackles but it seems like we can make Armstead and Buckner work so drafting Thomas to be an exclusive edge rusher just seems like a waste of his abilities.

Originally posted by adrianlesnar:

Solomon Thomas generates pressure from shooting an interior gap, or out muscling his man. One on one with a LT, does his film show the ability to dip around the outside, or enough pass rush moves, speed to power, length to consistently win and get to the qb?

Exactly. It's not about what he can't do per se, but it's more about accentuating what he does best. As a strongside DE, you can play him over the tackle in a 5t alignment. I talked about it here:

Originally posted by Heroism:
The reason I don't see him as a Leo is because Thomas wins in a linear fashion. His attributes are best suited moving forward through bodies in close proximity.

If you put at Leo, he's going to be rushing from a wide technique, likely a 7 or even a 9. Being that far from the tackle neutralizes his powerful hands and excellent balance through contact from that spot. You're putting him in a position to not do what he does best.

At the strong side end, he can play over the tackle, use the thunder in his fists, control his opponent with excellent balance and hand placement, and force the war of attrition with Thomas' high-revving motor. The tackle, in essence, is forced into combat in a phone booth with Thomas.

Originally posted by adrianlesnar:
I don't remember quoting you...

The fact that you seem to think I'm calling you out specifically with my post is the most confusing part.

Solomon Thomas generates pressure from shooting an interior gap, or out muscling his man. One on one with a LT, does his film show the ability to dip around the outside, or enough pass rush moves, speed to power, length to consistently win and get to the qb?

Thomas would be an excellent addition to the team. The question is, will a difference making LEO still be available at 34 to make it worth passing on in the first? Is a strongside DE a bigger need than a #1 WR or a #1 cb? I personally don't think so because you can have DeFo play strong end.

I've been the one saying Thomas can play whatever so just figured it was directed at me for the most part.

Thomas generates pass rush in a variety of ways which is why he's such a force. He can bullrush and he can use his speed and athletic ability.

Personally I don't think DeFo's best spot is at end. i think 3T is his best spot and really we're only putting him out at end due to Armstead. What happens if Armstead doesn't produce? Now we're back to one guy on the DL who is a force. i don't want to see that.

The defense will be only as good as the front line. Especially with us running a 4-3 we cannot have many holes and we need to do everything we can to make sure it's a strength up there.

Thomas is everything you want in a player. The only knock on him is where he plays, not whether he'll produce. I think it's a good problem to have when you have a guy who can move all around and get you production.

And yes I believe #34 will have a pretty good Leo prospect available. I'd have no problem double dipping on pass rushers. Thomas in the first and Jordan Willis in the second.

If we get our pass rush back to scary levels the rest of the defense will improve. I don't think we can rely on Lynch, Harold, Carradine, etc. if we have too many good pass rushers I'm sure teams will love to take them off our hands.

And yes I think a pass rush threat is a bigger need than #1 WR or #1 CB. Get a strong pass rush and your corners look great. If your pass rush sucks even your top shutdown guys will only be able to cover for so long. Just look at the way Denver and the Giants were able to take Tom Brady off his game? Pass rush. Atlanta was able to hang in there early in the SB due to pass rush with a beat up and young secondary. They got back into the game because that pass rush was too tired in the later stages of the game. Back to you can never have too many pass rushers :)

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by SammyFrancisco:

Well said. I tried to get this across a few pages back. Thomas is a great prospect, but he has never been a weakside pass rusher, like, e.g., Derek Barnett. He profiles more as a strongside DE in our defense, which is not as great an area of need. From my, admittedly limited, film-viewing, he gets to the quarterback mostly through the bull rush or by exploiting inside gaps with his tremendous burst off the line, often with the defense causing confusion with stunts, etc. So, what happens when you isolate him outside against an NFL Tackle? He is tremendously talented, so I don't doubt his potential, but profiling him as a LEO is based on projection more than film.

He's faster and quicker than Barnett so why do you think he can't rush from the outside?

Combine numbers for each guy

Barnett 6'3 259 lbs 32 1/8 arm, 10 hands, DNP bench, 4.88 40 yard dash, 31'' vert jump, 117'' broad jump, 6.96 3 cone, 4.44 20 yard shuttle
Thomas 6'3 273 lbs 33 arm, 9 3/8 hands, 30 bench, 4.69 40 yard dash, 35'' vert jump, 126'' broad jump, 6.95 3 cone, 4.28 20 yard shuttle

The bolded are in favor of Thomas. Bench can't be compared since Barnett didn't partcipate. All those numbers were better for Thomas including arm length(though not by much) while being 14 lbs heavier.

Yet people have no issues with Barnett being Leo? It's not like the ask is to take Thomas and turn him into a corner. He has played on the outside. Moving him just a bit further out isn't a bad thing. If anything it would make it harder for teams to double him when he's out wide. He has plenty of speed to get around the edge.

i just hope we don't pass up on a kid with this much talent because of his weight and the fact that he excelled as an inside rusher, which is harder to do btw.

You are focusing on combine numbers way too much. Not every player is projected to a position based off what they run. That's not how any of this works.

Aldon ran a slower time compared to J Smith. Do you think Justin should've been playing OLB rushing the passer? Skill set and technique come into play here. If we had no combine numbers and just tape, this wouldn't even be a conversation.

Originally posted by NCommand:
To me, Buckner is ideal to play LDE/5T where Michael Bennett plays. Why? This is typically the strong side (where the TE lines up/FB/RB runs towards). Buckner is already really good against the run from his two-gaps days in college and in playing 3-4 end last year. He's strong and quick enough to set the edge, force runs back inside and quick enough with enough pass rush moves to make a ton of TFL there as well as collapse the pocket and collect some sacks. Armstead, on the other hand, really only has about 200 healthy snaps and was less refined coming out of college. Moving to a 4-man DL, moving AA inside between the NT/1T and the LEO (right pass rushers), AA will constantly be single covered and 1on1, he's going to crush people with his bull rush and make life very difficult for the QB esp. with that height and knocking down passing and obstructing view right in the middle of a QB's step-up lane. He'd play a much better role for his skill set in this 4-3 vs. the 3-4 DE (of which he had talent for as well vs. 2 blockers). In addition, he'll be asked to pass rush far more and that's a better strength for him. He'll just need to work on his pad level, plowing over a G/C and keeping his eyes on the RB/QB.

LDE/5T (Buckner) --- NT/1T (Mitchell) --- RDT/3T (Armstead) --- LEO ()

That seems to be how most have broken down our new d and that really boxes Thomas into the Leo which I don't think is his best fit.

Originally posted by adrianlesnar:

Originally posted by genus49:
No offense but I don't need to prove sh*t. At least no more than you or others saying he's not a fit have to prove he cannot. Though I have yet to see someone tell me what skills Thomas does not possess which make a prospect a prime candidate for Leo. From the discussions around here it seems like weight appears to be the biggest factor which I find silly.

i also never said Bennett played LEO so you're getting several people confused.

I don't remember quoting you...

The fact that you seem to think I'm calling you out specifically with my post is the most confusing part.

Solomon Thomas generates pressure from shooting an interior gap, or out muscling his man. One on one with a LT, does his film show the ability to dip around the outside, or enough pass rush moves, speed to power, length to consistently win and get to the qb?

Thomas would be an excellent addition to the team. The question is, will a difference making LEO still be available at 34 to make it worth passing on in the first? Is a strongside DE a bigger need than a #1 WR or a #1 cb? I personally don't think so because you can have DeFo play strong end.

There's no WR worth taking at #2 or anywhere close to #2. Whether or not a CB is worth the pick depends on how we view Marcus Lattimore's injury concerns, but you could just as easily make an argument that we can find a good CB in the 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th round of this draft.

We haven't seen Solomon Thomas play much on the edge and he's a great fit as a strongside or interior defensive lineman on passing downs, but it's possible we think he can develop into a LEO. I think there's a huge gap between Thomas and Charles Harris as prospects (and Harris may not even be there at 34). If Lattimore is healthy, there's probably a huge gap between him and the top corners at 34 too though.

Even though Thomas may be best as a strong side DE, he's still likely a better prospect at LEO than the guys who will be around at 34. He's bigger and a much better athlete than Harris with longer arms. He's much bigger and stronger than Willis and about 8 months younger than him too. One red flag for Thomas though is that he hasn't deflected a single pass in college. For a player as disruptive as Thomas, I would have expected him to get a hand on at least a couple passes.

Originally posted by jreff22:
You are focusing on combine numbers way too much. Not every player is projected to a position based off what they run. That's not how any of this works.

Aldon ran a slower time compared to J Smith. Do you think Justin should've been playing OLB rushing the passer? Skill set and technique come into play here. If we had no combine numbers and just tape, this wouldn't even be a conversation.

This is my point though...

Thomas has excellent tape. Guy busts his ass and plays the run very well. He's able to generate pass rush in various ways and isn't a one trick pony. When we don't have tape on someone playing a different position you have to go based on what they have shown on tape and yes combine results add a bit on top of that. If guys who have played outside are getting worked by Thomas in terms of athletic ability what do you think he can't do that they can?

The guy goes to Stanford, do you think that he can't pick it up mentally? Athletically he seems to be right up there with the guys who had success so why do you think he can't do it?

Once again...just because it may not be his best position it doesn't mean he automatically can't do it.

Originally posted by jreff22:

Aldon ran a slower time compared to J Smith. Do you think Justin should've been playing OLB rushing the passer?

Justin Smith was a 264 pound DE when he ran that time not the considerably heavier player he was with the 49ers. He was widely looked at as a possible 3-4 OLB. Ultimately he went to Cincy and played as a 4-3 DE.


Even when he was with the 49ers and up in the mid 280s he was still pretty athletic for his size.

Very true, Cowboy is kind of an outlier. He kept getting bigger and bigger, stronger and stronger here in SF, yet still managed to keep his short-area explosiveness and athleticism. He was very twitchy for a guy his size. Constantly the first one off the ball.

I miss that guy. One of a kind.

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by jreff22:

You are focusing on combine numbers way too much. Not every player is projected to a position based off what they run. That's not how any of this works.

Aldon ran a slower time compared to J Smith. Do you think Justin should've been playing OLB rushing the passer? Skill set and technique come into play here. If we had no combine numbers and just tape, this wouldn't even be a conversation.

This is my point though...

Thomas has excellent tape. Guy busts his ass and plays the run very well. He's able to generate pass rush in various ways and isn't a one trick pony. When we don't have tape on someone playing a different position you have to go based on what they have shown on tape and yes combine results add a bit on top of that. If guys who have played outside are getting worked by Thomas in terms of athletic ability what do you think he can't do that they can?

The guy goes to Stanford, do you think that he can't pick it up mentally? Athletically he seems to be right up there with the guys who had success so why do you think he can't do it?

Once again...just because it may not be his best position it doesn't mean he automatically can't do it.

His tape is interior rushing. He is an inside force and penetrator. Not a LEO.

He "can't" do it because it's not his position. We want somebody getting double digit sacks yearly. Putting him on the outside and forcing him at LEO works against him. It's like expecting Brooks to give us what Aldon did. Different players have different strengths.

You have no tape proving he can. All you have are combine numbers and a hunch.

This is the equivalent of taking Jimmy Ward and making him a corner. He can do it but would you prefer a good corner or great FS? At #2 we don't want good production, we need great production. Taking him away from what he does best is dumb.

You are going to experiment with him like we did Tank and ruin years worth of play we could've had. He's a strong side DE and DT on passing downs. He's not a dedicated LEO.

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by SteveYoung:
LDE- Michael Bennett 6'3, 273
40 YARD DASH: 5.13 SEC
BENCH PRESS: 24 REPS
VERTICAL JUMP: 31.0 INCH
BROAD JUMP: 110.0 INCH
*slides inside to DT on passing downs

Soloman Thomas 6'3, 273
40 YARD DASH: 4.69 SEC
BENCH PRESS: 30 REPS
VERTICAL JUMP: 35.0 INCH
BROAD JUMP: 126.0 INCH
3 CONE DRILL: 6.95 SEC
20 YARD SHUTTLE: 4.28 SEC

Thomas pretty much blows Bennett away at everything. Bennett is good enough to be a force for Seattle yet Thomas isn't a fit here??

To me the pick will be Thomas or Lattimore and considering we have quite a few young corners with potential and no pass rush taking Thomas is the way to go.

People want a dedicated LEO. Bennett slides inside on passing downs, that's literally what many of us have said Thomas will do. And the argument keeps turning into, "well he can play LEO for sure because he's versatile."

If you put Thomas at LDE (strong side) that's fine, that's where his best fit would be, I get it, makes sense, no arguments, were cool. But toying with his position to try and force him into the LEO because "he's fast" is taking him away from his strength.

Why would anybody want to take a player that high and move them away from the reason they are draftable that high?

If the point of taking him is to replace AA, ok I get it. I think giving up on AA after 2 years is a little extreme but I can understand. But taking Thomas with the idea that his combine numbers somehow prove he's a LEO without ever really playing the position...I'm not buying it.

21 Year old kid who is a great all around player against both the run and pass. Just because Stanford had him at DT doesn't mean he won't be successful elsewhere it has as much to do with the tools he brings to the NFL as anything else. A good Dline coach will be able to mold what he has into a special player that can play just about every position on the line not just well but as a potential probowl player.