DeShone Kizer QB, Notre Dame

Originally posted by cdub80:

I think of Kizer was in Clemsons offend with Williams, Cain, Gallman ect. Or Trubisky's with the talent and scheme he had we wouldn't be questioning if Kizer was the top QB we'd be trying to figure out a way to get to the top of the draft to get this guy. If we draft Trubisky we'll be looking back in five years like we drafted Alex over Aaron again.

Another guy mentioned it already. But he had Will Fuller, Prosise and Stanley last year who were all top talent at their position in all of college football. Not only did he have the first OT picked but he also had the 2nd center picked in the 2016 draft. And Kizer still didn't have amazing numbers in that year with all those insane weapons.

He might turn out to be good but in this thread it's a bunch of guys repeating how Kizer would have done better than Watson if he was the QB of Clemson. He had a team just as good on offense.

Originally posted by GhostOfBaalke:

Another guy mentioned it already. But he had Will Fuller, Prosise and Stanley last year who were all top talent at their position in all of college football. Not only did he have the first OT picked but he also had the 2nd center picked in the 2016 draft. And Kizer still didn't have amazing numbers in that year with all those insane weapons.

He might turn out to be good but in this thread it's a bunch of guys repeating how Kizer would have done better than Watson if he was the QB of Clemson. He had a team just as good on offense.

Not in 2016. I'm in the minority on this, but I think Kizer played better in 2016 than he did in 2015. He just had garbage surrounding him on offense. None of his receivers will ever be drafted except for possibly St. Brown who was a first year starter. He had 2 offensive lineman and maybe 1 RB who will be drafted in the next 2 drafts.

Watson has 7 teammates on offense who will likely be drafted in the first 3-4 rounds in the next 2 drafts. Williams is considered the top WR in this year's class (and better than any of the receivers in last year's class) and Cain is ranked as one of the top 3 WRs in next year's class. Notre Dame only had those 4 guys last year and Procise was drafted based off potential as much as anything since he was inexperienced as a RB but showed good instincts considering he was a WR the year before. The 2015 team was not equivalent to 2016 Clemson in terms of talent on offense.

Comparing 2016 seasons, Kizer had far less talent around him, but had a better passer rating once you take out the NC State hurricane game, a far better TD-interception ratio, and more passing yards per attempt. It's not a big stretch to say Kizer would have put up similar stats to Watson if he had 3 NFL WRs and an NFL TE instead of the sorry group of receivers he was left with due to injuries to their starting TE (Jones) and WR (Corey Robinson). Their stats were almost equivalent already on a per game basis as I posted earlier - Watson just benefited from playing more games and not playing in a hurricane.

Kizer definitely benefited from having a great offensive line in 2015 with 4 guys who will eventually play in the NFL. In 2016, ND's line was not good and he had no one to throw to, but he still looked like an NFL QB.

Not high on Watson but if for some reason Kizer's draft stock rose to a top 5 pick N the new Niner brass was torn between Watson N Kizer i would hope they take Watson instead i dont want ANY part of Jamarcus Russell 2.0. This kid is too raw N just doesnt make the necessary throws to be an elite NFL QB. Inconsistency is a big issue with this guy.

Originally posted by Tru2RedNGold25:

Not high on Watson but if for some reason Kizer's draft stock rose to a top 5 pick N the new Niner brass was torn between Watson N Kizer i would hope they take Watson instead i dont want ANY part of Jamarcus Russell 2.0. This kid is too raw N just doesnt make the necessary throws to be an elite NFL QB. Inconsistency is a big issue with this guy.

Jamarcus Russell's Problem was between the ears he rather sip cough syrup then be a great QB. He didn't succeed because he didn't want to succeed enough. . Comparing Deshone Kizer to Jamarcus Russel is absolutely absurd

This guy is too much of a risk and IMO doesnt seem like a good fit for shanahans offense. Kizer would fit the steelers offense if Big Ben decides to retire. He needs to be in that gun slinging offense

Originally posted by eastcoast49ersfan:

Not in 2016. I'm in the minority on this, but I think Kizer played better in 2016 than he did in 2015. He just had garbage surrounding him on offense. None of his receivers will ever be drafted except for possibly St. Brown who was a first year starter. He had 2 offensive lineman and maybe 1 RB who will be drafted in the next 2 drafts.

Watson has 7 teammates on offense who will likely be drafted in the first 3-4 rounds in the next 2 drafts. Williams is considered the top WR in this year's class (and better than any of the receivers in last year's class) and Cain is ranked as one of the top 3 WRs in next year's class. Notre Dame only had those 4 guys last year and Procise was drafted based off potential as much as anything since he was inexperienced as a RB but showed good instincts considering he was a WR the year before. The 2015 team was not equivalent to 2016 Clemson in terms of talent on offense.

Comparing 2016 seasons, Kizer had far less talent around him, but had a better passer rating once you take out the NC State hurricane game, a far better TD-interception ratio, and more passing yards per attempt. It's not a big stretch to say Kizer would have put up similar stats to Watson if he had 3 NFL WRs and an NFL TE instead of the sorry group of receivers he was left with due to injuries to their starting TE (Jones) and WR (Corey Robinson). Their stats were almost equivalent already on a per game basis as I posted earlier - Watson just benefited from playing more games and not playing in a hurricane.

Kizer definitely benefited from having a great offensive line in 2015 with 4 guys who will eventually play in the NFL. In 2016, ND's line was not good and he had no one to throw to, but he still looked like an NFL QB.

Nice post, I haven't seen as much of Kizer as you have so I can't really argue too much about his actual play.

Who cares if Prosise was drafted on potential?? The point is he's really good, and probably better than Galman He averaged 6.6 yards a carry with over 1000 yards in his last year in college. He's already proven he's a very high level player.

But are you factoring in that Watson had the 3rd hardest schedule as opposed to kizer's schedule ranked in the 20s? Yea Watson has an insane once every few years receiver (that he didn't have last year and had better numbers) but he also went up against a bunch of top ranked DBs that are getting drafted.

Originally posted by GhostOfBaalke:

Originally posted by eastcoast49ersfan:
Not in 2016. I'm in the minority on this, but I think Kizer played better in 2016 than he did in 2015. He just had garbage surrounding him on offense. None of his receivers will ever be drafted except for possibly St. Brown who was a first year starter. He had 2 offensive lineman and maybe 1 RB who will be drafted in the next 2 drafts.

Watson has 7 teammates on offense who will likely be drafted in the first 3-4 rounds in the next 2 drafts. Williams is considered the top WR in this year's class (and better than any of the receivers in last year's class) and Cain is ranked as one of the top 3 WRs in next year's class. Notre Dame only had those 4 guys last year and Procise was drafted based off potential as much as anything since he was inexperienced as a RB but showed good instincts considering he was a WR the year before. The 2015 team was not equivalent to 2016 Clemson in terms of talent on offense.

Comparing 2016 seasons, Kizer had far less talent around him, but had a better passer rating once you take out the NC State hurricane game, a far better TD-interception ratio, and more passing yards per attempt. It's not a big stretch to say Kizer would have put up similar stats to Watson if he had 3 NFL WRs and an NFL TE instead of the sorry group of receivers he was left with due to injuries to their starting TE (Jones) and WR (Corey Robinson). Their stats were almost equivalent already on a per game basis as I posted earlier - Watson just benefited from playing more games and not playing in a hurricane.

Kizer definitely benefited from having a great offensive line in 2015 with 4 guys who will eventually play in the NFL. In 2016, ND's line was not good and he had no one to throw to, but he still looked like an NFL QB.

Nice post, I haven't seen as much of Kizer as you have so I can't really argue too much about his actual play.

Who cares if Prosise was drafted on potential?? The point is he's really good, and probably better than Galman He averaged 6.6 yards a carry with over 1000 yards in his last year in college. He's already proven he's a very high level player.

But are you factoring in that Watson had the 3rd hardest schedule as opposed to kizer's schedule ranked in the 20s? Yea Watson has an insanse once every few years receiver (that he didn't have last year and had better numbers) but he also went up against a bunch of top ranked DBs that are getting drafted.

Watson's schedule was more difficult, but his offense was more talented than the defense he was up against in every game but one. Even if the Alabama game, Clemson receivers were way more open than Notre Dame receivers were against Stanford or USC. That's mostly due to the talent Watson had at the receiver positions and the lack of talent Notre Dame had (starting a true freshman 3 star WR as your #2 WR in several games is never a good sign), but it's also on the Notre Dame coaches (Kelly).

Notre Dame had a dominant offensive line in 2015 which is the biggest reason Prosise was able to play well right away in college. I still think Gallman was the better RB coming out of college than Prosise was in his first year playing the position. Gallman will probably be drafted around the same place (3rd/4th round), but he's a little more NFL ready and doesn't have as much upside as a receiver out of the backfield.

Both Kizer and Trubisky had better seasons in 2016 than Watson in the context of the types of throws they had to make. Watson had way too many interceptions this year where he just didn't recognize coverages or see defenders. I agree that Watson's 2015 season is much better than Kizer's 2015 season though.

Originally posted by eastcoast49ersfan:

Watson's schedule was more difficult, but his offense was more talented than the defense he was up against in every game but one. Even if the Alabama game, Clemson receivers were way more open than Notre Dame receivers were against Stanford or USC. That's mostly due to the talent Watson had at the receiver positions and the lack of talent Notre Dame had (starting a true freshman 3 star WR as your #2 WR in several games is never a good sign), but it's also on the Notre Dame coaches (Kelly).

Notre Dame had a dominant offensive line in 2015 which is the biggest reason Prosise was able to play well right away in college. I still think Gallman was the better RB coming out of college than Prosise was in his first year playing the position. Gallman will probably be drafted around the same place (3rd/4th round), but he's a little more NFL ready and doesn't have as much upside as a receiver out of the backfield.

Both Kizer and Trubisky had better seasons in 2016 than Watson in the context of the types of throws they had to make. Watson had way too many interceptions this year where he just didn't recognize coverages or see defenders. I agree that Watson's 2015 season is much better than Kizer's 2015 season though.

So standford for example what're you basing it off of that Kizers receivers didn't get open? Where did you see that?

Trubisky's receivers were also far better than Kizer's this year which is really evident if you watch the North Carolina - Stanford game and the Notre Dame - Stanford games, but Trubisky is a little more consistent than Kizer and better under pressure so I'd probably slightly prefer him to Kizer.

It was frustrating watching Kizer at times this year because he held onto the ball too long at times, but it's also understandable considering his offensive line got a lot worse and his receivers weren't any good. Part of the problem was that the coach (Kelly) overreacts to turnovers, so it was safer to take a sack than risk throwing an interception from the standpoint of keeping his starting role.

I'm curious to read more about the alleged character issues with Kizer. Personally, I think it's all made up - he comes across as a really bright and mature kid and I think he handled all the bs with Brian Kelly rotating QBs as well as as anyone. I don't think any of the top QBs have any character concerns at all. You can point towards leadership maybe, but I don't think any of us know what kind of leader Kizer or Trubisky are since we aren't in the locker room, on the sidelines, or interviewing them. None of them give me the Connor Cook vibe which raised red flags last year.

http://www.ndinsider.com/football/deshone-kizer-brings-powerful-motivation-into-notre-dame-qb-picture/article_e1ea2b0c-f68d-11e4-a822-574a320e74ce.html

I see open receivers on over half the plays. And he missed wide open receivers badly on at least 5 throws . Two s**tty drops from his teammates. But don't see where you get that they had no separation. That's just flat out wrong.

Originally posted by GhostOfBaalke:

Originally posted by eastcoast49ersfan:
Watson's schedule was more difficult, but his offense was more talented than the defense he was up against in every game but one. Even if the Alabama game, Clemson receivers were way more open than Notre Dame receivers were against Stanford or USC. That's mostly due to the talent Watson had at the receiver positions and the lack of talent Notre Dame had (starting a true freshman 3 star WR as your #2 WR in several games is never a good sign), but it's also on the Notre Dame coaches (Kelly).

Notre Dame had a dominant offensive line in 2015 which is the biggest reason Prosise was able to play well right away in college. I still think Gallman was the better RB coming out of college than Prosise was in his first year playing the position. Gallman will probably be drafted around the same place (3rd/4th round), but he's a little more NFL ready and doesn't have as much upside as a receiver out of the backfield.

Both Kizer and Trubisky had better seasons in 2016 than Watson in the context of the types of throws they had to make. Watson had way too many interceptions this year where he just didn't recognize coverages or see defenders. I agree that Watson's 2015 season is much better than Kizer's 2015 season though.

So standford for example what're you basing it off of that Kizers receivers didn't get open? Where did you see that?

I was at the game and I posted a video several pages back. I was one of the many fans booing Brian Kelly for benching him that game right off the bat. After the 3rd wasted drive, every fan in the building was booing Brian Kelly.

If you can look past the first 2 throws that game which are admittedly terrible, he made a lot of really good throws into tight windows. He ran for about 100 yards and made a ton of perfect throws, but he was benched for throwing two interceptions, including one on 4th and long where he lobbed a pass trying to make a play. It wasn't Kizer's best game, but it wasn't nearly as bad as the stats indicate and it definitely didn't warrant getting benched for Malik Zaire

Kizer was benched up 10-7 in the 3rd quarter. Brian Kelly gave the backup (Zaire) 3 drives that resulted in -9 yards, no first downs, and a safety for Stanford. That turned a 10-7 lead into a 17-10 deficit and Kizer finally got the ball back with 75 yards to go and less than 4 minutes left (with one timeout). Kizer was able to bounce back and drive the ball down the field to the 8 yard line, giving them a chance to tie the game. If they score a TD on that drive and come back to win the game, no one would be questioning Kizer's leadership or toughness.

Originally posted by GhostOfBaalke:
I see open receivers on over half the plays. And he missed wide open receivers badly on at least 5 throws . Two s**tty drops from his teammates. But don't see where you get that they had no separation. That's just flat out wrong.

The number of excuses to justify his hype is enough of a reason to avoid him like the plague.

Originally posted by GhostOfBaalke:
I see open receivers on over half the plays. And he missed wide open receivers badly on at least 5 throws . Two s**tty drops from his teammates. But don't see where you get that they had no separation. That's just flat out wrong.

Compare this video to Trubisky's game against Stanford or any game Clemson played all year. Kizer took sacks on plays where no one was open or was forced to try to scramble. He also threw into more tight windows than Trubisky or Watson have had to in any games this year. Notre Dame didn't have a Mike Williams they could throw the ball to who could make contested catches. St. Brown is tall, but he isn't strong or physical.

The throw at 3:43 is a touchdown if he has a TE like Leggett or even Alize Jones who was supposed to be the starter this year before he got hurt Perfect throw, but he's throwing to a guy who isn't any good, didn't get separation, and couldn't come down with a very makeable catch. 7:36 is another perfect throw, but the receiver doesn't come back to the ball or catch it. On the 2nd interception on 4th down, Stanford blitzed 5 guys and 2 got home immediately. Kizer tries to make a play, but the receiver (Corey Holmes) doesn't look back until the ball is already going past him.

Notre Dame had a bunch of receivers who didn't have experience from past years and weren't even supposed to be starters in 2016 (they lost 2 of their best remaining players in offense in Alize Jones and Corey Robinson after losing their two starting receivers in Will Fuller and Chris Brown). Their 2016 WRs, TEs, and RBs combined for 456 receiving yards in 2015. It's remarkable that the ND offense was able to score 33.5 points per game (excluding the NC State hurricane game) considering they replaced a number of really good players with awful ones. It definitely wasn't Kizer's fault they only won 4 games this year.

Here is how I see the top 3 prospects:

Watson: The safer pick out of the 3 because of his play against high level competition and ability to perform in big games. His floor is probably a guy like Tavaris Jackson and his ceiling is a Russel Wilson.

Trubisky: The conservative pick, in danger of becoming an alex smith type of player if confidence dips early in his career. But has potential to be a good passer in this league. Possibly an Andy Dalton type player.

Kizer: the biggest boom or bust prospect out of the 3. I see him either becoming an innacurate, interception king. But his ceiling could be MVP caliber QB. I see his floor as a Rex Grossman, but his ceiling could be an Andrew Luck.

Originally posted by eastcoast49ersfan:
Trubisky's receivers were also far better than Kizer's this year which is really evident if you watch the North Carolina - Stanford game and the Notre Dame - Stanford games, but Trubisky is a little more consistent than Kizer and better under pressure so I'd probably slightly prefer him to Kizer.

It was frustrating watching Kizer at times this year because he held onto the ball too long at times, but it's also understandable considering his offensive line got a lot worse and his receivers weren't any good. Part of the problem was that the coach (Kelly) overreacts to turnovers, so it was safer to take a sack than risk throwing an interception from the standpoint of keeping his starting role.

I'm curious to read more about the alleged character issues with Kizer. Personally, I think it's all made up - he comes across as a really bright and mature kid and I think he handled all the bs with Brian Kelly rotating QBs as well as as anyone. I don't think any of the top QBs have any character concerns at all. You can point towards leadership maybe, but I don't think any of us know what kind of leader Kizer or Trubisky are since we aren't in the locker room, on the sidelines, or interviewing them. None of them give me the Connor Cook vibe which raised red flags last year.

http://www.ndinsider.com/football/deshone-kizer-brings-powerful-motivation-into-notre-dame-qb-picture/article_e1ea2b0c-f68d-11e4-a822-574a320e74ce.html

Aren't QBs supposed to make WRs better Switzer, Howard, and Proehl all doubled or came near to doubling their production when Mitch became the QB.

I agree it was frustrating to see Kizer play this yr, the talent is there but like you said he held on to the ball wayyy too much....was it because he was afraid to turn the ball over, was it because he wasn't confident enough to make the throws, or was it because he wanted to make the big play instead of the short safer play? As far as leadership goes that's something for the scouts to figure out. Mitch looked like a leader to me this yr.

we will see...Peterman is growing on me, especially since we have had an idea who's gonna be our HC.